Obscure hockey facts/stats (Part 2)

Crosby2010

Registered User
Mar 4, 2023
1,445
1,339
Pete Mahovlich holds the Habs franchise record for assists in a single season with 82. Two things to consider here. Mahovlich had a much more wicked prime than we might remember. Secondly, the greatest franchise in hockey history and probably North American sports history outside of the Yankees never had someone else get more than that? That's surprising. Not even Lafleur. And there has been one 100 point season in Montreal since 1980 by a player. Hard to believe but it's true.
 

Nogatco Rd

Pierre-Luc Dubas
Apr 3, 2021
2,982
5,590
10/28/2024 marked a rare “sports equinox” — a day featuring games from each of North America’s Big 4 sports leagues.

Starting Monday night, within a span of ~24 hours, the Knicks lost, the Yankees lost, the Giants lost, and the Rangers lost.

Would love to know the last time that happened to all four of a city’s teams.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,502
15,832
@pnep - do you have a way of generating a list that shows the win percentage of a team when the player is vs isn't in the lineup? Specifically I'm looking for an oddity - HOF players whose teams have a better win percentage in the games the players missed. I have a theory as to why this might be the case, but I want to gather more examples first. Currently I've identified Sidney Crosby, Denis Potvin and Steve Yzerman - are there others?
 

reckoning

Registered User
Jan 4, 2005
7,096
1,446
Random statistic that probably means nothing, but I still thought was interesting:

Most points in a season by a player in games his team lost:

1. (89-90) Joe Sakic 69
2. (83-84) Mike Bullard 63
3. (84-85) Mario Lemieux 56
4. (92-93) Kelly Kisio 54
5. (85-86) Dale Hawerchuk 53
5. (92-93) Norm MacIver 53
7. (90-91) Joe Sakic 52
8. (92-93) Geoff Sanderson 51
9. (82-83) Ron Francis 50
9. (85-86) Bernie Nicholls 50
 

pnep

Registered User
Mar 10, 2004
3,066
1,793
Novosibirsk,Russia
@pnep - do you have a way of generating a list that shows the win percentage of a team when the player is vs isn't in the lineup? Specifically I'm looking for an oddity - HOF players whose teams have a better win percentage in the games the players missed. I have a theory as to why this might be the case, but I want to gather more examples first. Currently I've identified Sidney Crosby, Denis Potvin and Steve Yzerman - are there others?


 

Yozhik v tumane

Registered User
Jan 2, 2019
2,025
2,171
@pnep - do you have a way of generating a list that shows the win percentage of a team when the player is vs isn't in the lineup? Specifically I'm looking for an oddity - HOF players whose teams have a better win percentage in the games the players missed. I have a theory as to why this might be the case, but I want to gather more examples first. Currently I've identified Sidney Crosby, Denis Potvin and Steve Yzerman - are there others?

My theory is simply:

They missed more games when their teams were good, and they played more games when their teams were poor?

I think Crosby played all games in his rookie season, then missed a ton when the team was strong and Malkin could carried them. Yzerman was more healthy as a young star on the “Dead Things” and often hobbled by injury during their super stacked DPE teams. Potvin rarely missed games on the young, weak/emergent Islanders teams of the 70s, but did so more as a veteran defenseman on a dynasty.
 

Yozhik v tumane

Registered User
Jan 2, 2019
2,025
2,171

Unless I’m missing something, I think Mark Recchi, Mike Gartner, and Jarome Iginla are the Hall of Fame skaters with the worst win-difference?

With Recchi and Gartner, I suppose they have in common that they aren’t high-end HoFers. Both had long, healthy careers. Recchi’s record might be affected by not being Mario Lemieux? And maybe by being a reliably healthy player on injury riddled teams?

Iginla also remained healthy for most of his career. 2006-07 he missed 12 games on a playoff bound team. Maybe 2012-13 with the Penguins hurts him, if he played games missing either Malkin or Crosby?

Billy Smith having the worst win-ratio by a HoF goalie makes a lot of sense to me. Iirc, he played more RS games in the 70s, and generally saved himself for the playoffs as his teams improved?
 

Crosby2010

Registered User
Mar 4, 2023
1,445
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Just a cross-sport reference here and wondering if the NHL has this same sort of thing. But when the Yankees lost the World Series in Game 5 the other night it was the first time in their playoff history that they had ever squandered a 4+ run lead at Yankee Stadium, old or new stadium. They blew a 5-0 lead. This never happened with all of those great teams down to Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, Maris, Berra, Jackson, and not the turn of the century dynasty teams either. Not once. I thought this was incredible.

Who would have this sort of obscure - but elite - record in hockey? Or even have something close to it?

The only thing I can think of with this sort of sustained excellence for a team would be the Habs beating the Bruins in every playoff series in a 45 year span (after 1943 and before 1988). Or didn't the Flyers never lose a game at the Spectrum against the Penguins from 1974 to 1989 or something? That being said, that Yankees record was one that dated back to 1923, the first year of Yankee Stadium.
 

Crosby2010

Registered User
Mar 4, 2023
1,445
1,339
While we are at it, the Jets are 13-1 to start the season. Only them and the 2008 Senators won 13 of their first 14 games of the season in NHL history.

Immediately you think of the Habs dynasty having to have done this, but nope:
First 14 games
1976 Habs - 10-2-2
1977 Habs - 10-3-1
1978 Habs - 8-3-3
1979 Habs - 8-4-2

No kidding huh? For their standards the Habs started slow considering they lost 3 games in their first 14 in 1977 but only lost 5 in their next 66.

Would you believe the 1996 Wings were 7-5-2 in their first 14?
2019 Tampa was 10-3-1
2023 Bruins were 12-2
Even the 1994 Maple Leafs who I know started 10-0 still were 11-1-2 in their first 14.
As well as another team that started 10-0, the 2007 Sabres, but were 12-1-1 in their first 14

So that's it. This version of the Jets and the 2008 Senators, who would wind up barely making the playoffs.
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
20,162
17,206
Tokyo, Japan
February 6th, 1943:
February 6, 1943 -- Boston 3 @ Montreal 8

25-year-old Elmer Lach recorded 6 (primary) assists in one game — still the Canadiens' record today, 81 years later.

More bizarrely, in the same game, 28-year-old Ray Getliffe — himself a former Bruin who had never scored more than 16 goals in any season — scored 5 goals (and 1 assist). Getliffe, who was then two years from retirement, played 442 NHL games (including playoffs) and had a grand total of three hat-tricks, the other two being standard 3-goal games. (Since Newsy Lalonde in January 1920, no Montreal Canadien has scored more than 5 goals in a single game.)

Although war-weakened, Boston was still a pretty good club that year and had the legendary Frank Brimsek in goal.

(The very next night, the clubs played again at Boston Garden and the Bruins won 7-1, with former Maple Leaf Busher Jackson, now 32 years old and in his penultimate season, scoring a hat-trick, which was the second-to-last such of his career.)
 
Last edited:

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,502
15,832
Someone asked me for a list of the players with the most primary points. Here's the list as of yesterday (November 18th, 2024) - looking only at the 99 players with 1,000+ total points:

PlayerPrimaryRank (all)Rank (prim)Difference
Wayne Gretzky2,218
1​
1​
0​
Gordie Howe1,547
4​
2​
2​
Jaromir Jagr1,450
2​
3​
-1​
Mark Messier1,445
3​
4​
-1​
Marcel Dionne1,393
6​
5​
1​
Ron Francis1,346
5​
6​
-1​
Mario Lemieux1,344
8​
7​
1​
Steve Yzerman1,342
7​
8​
-1​
Alex Ovechkin1,299
13​
9​
4​
Phil Esposito1,273
11​
10​
1​
Sidney Crosby1,225
10​
11​
-1​
Joe Sakic1,202
9​
12​
-3​
Teemu Selanne1,177
18​
13​
5​
Dale Hawerchuk1,132
22​
14​
8​
Brett Hull1,129
25​
15​
10​
Stan Mikita1,126
17​
16​
1​
Joe Thornton1,113
14​
17​
-3​
Mark Recchi1,108
15​
18​
-3​
Mike Gartner1,091
33​
19​
14​
Doug Gilmour1,084
21​
20​
1​
Brendan Shanahan1,083
28​
22​
6​
Luc Robitaille1,083
24​
21​
3​
Mats Sundin1,076
30​
23​
7​
Johnny Bucyk1,075
27​
24​
3​
Dave Andreychuk1,071
31​
25​
6​
Bryan Trottier1,066
19​
26​
-7​
Jari Kurri1,064
23​
27​
-4​
Denis Savard1,056
32​
28​
4​
Jarome Iginla1,054
37​
30​
7​
Mike Modano1,054
26​
29​
-3​
Guy Lafleur1,052
29​
31​
-2​
Pierre Turgeon1,035
34​
32​
2​
Gilbert Perreault1,028
35​
33​
2​
Paul Coffey1,026
16​
34​
-18​
Adam Oates1,005
20​
35​
-15​
Evgeni Malkin1,000
36​
36​
0​
Ray Bourque997
12​
37​
-25​
Patrick Kane994
38​
38​
0​
Bobby Hull976
56​
39​
17​
Norm Ullman966
45​
40​
5​
Dino Ciccarelli958
52​
41​
11​
Alex Delvecchio955
39​
42​
-3​
Jean Beliveau951
46​
43​
3​
Jean Ratelle946
41​
44​
-3​
Mike Bossy942
63​
45​
18​
Peter Stastny938
42​
46​
-4​
Michel Goulet933
58​
48​
10​
Bernie Nicholls933
50​
47​
3​
Jeremy Roenick925
48​
49​
-1​
Patrick Marleau921
53​
50​
3​
Steven Stamkos918
59​
51​
8​
Vincent Damphousse906
51​
52​
-1​
Joe Nieuwendyk904
64​
54​
10​
Darryl Sittler904
65​
55​
10​
Sergei Fedorov904
55​
53​
2​
Bobby Clarke899
49​
56​
-7​
Rod Brind'Amour891
54​
57​
-3​
Anze Kopitar887
44​
58​
-14​
Marian Hossa879
61​
59​
2​
Glenn Anderson861
67​
60​
7​
Daniel Alfredsson859
57​
61​
-4​
Frank Mahovlich857
66​
62​
4​
Alexander Mogilny847
87​
64​
23​
Pat Verbeek847
77​
63​
14​
Theo Fleury841
68​
65​
3​
Keith Tkachuk838
73​
67​
6​
Bernie Federko838
62​
66​
-4​
Joe Pavelski836
72​
68​
4​
Henri Richard824
80​
71​
9​
John Tavares824
78​
70​
8​
Eric Staal824
76​
69​
7​
Joe Mullen822
75​
72​
3​
Brian Bellows819
91​
73​
18​
Pat LaFontaine818
95​
74​
21​
Ray Whitney816
74​
75​
-1​
Dave Taylor809
71​
76​
-5​
Al MacInnis804
40​
77​
-37​
Phil Housley799
43​
78​
-35​
Daniel Sedin796
81​
79​
2​
Patrice Bergeron786
82​
80​
2​
Lanny McDonald779
97​
82​
15​
Alex Kovalev779
88​
81​
7​
Bobby Smith776
83​
83​
0​
Martin St. Louis773
85​
84​
1​
Steve Larmer772
96​
85​
11​
Connor McDavid765
99​
86​
13​
Patrik Elias763
90​
87​
3​
Rod Gilbert760
92​
88​
4​
Claude Giroux755
69​
89​
-20​
Brian Propp738
98​
90​
8​
Dale Hunter727
93​
91​
2​
Larry Murphy726
47​
92​
-45​
Doug Weight714
84​
93​
-9​
Ryan Getzlaf710
94​
94​
0​
Henrik Sedin697
70​
95​
-25​
Nicklas Lidstrom689
60​
96​
-36​
Brian Leetch682
89​
97​
-8​
Nicklas Backstrom671
86​
98​
-12​
Denis Potvin667
79​
99​
-20​

Some quick comments:
  • For the record, I don't think that primary points should be over-emphasized. I can dig up the links another time, but I've shown that secondary assists have informational value and shouldn't be discarded.
  • Gretzky is (once again) in a class of his own. Howe is the only other player in NHL history to reach 1,500 primary points, and Gretzky is more than 650 points ahead of him. (Also, Gretzky has 1,324 primary assists - no other player in NHL history has even reached 800).
  • Only five players on this list average more than 1 primary point per game. (This number, obviously, is highly influenced by the length of a player's career, and the scoring environment). Those players are Gretzky (1.49), Lemieux (1.47), Bossy (1.25), McDavid (1.16) and Dionne (1.03).
  • Which players lose the most ground (when comparing how they rank in total points vs just primary points)? 12 players drop 10+ spots. Not surprisingly, defenseman are the most affected. Blueliners occupy the bottom four spots, and six of the bottom seven. The forwards with the biggest drops are mostly pure playmakers (H. Sedin, Giroux, Oates, Kopitar, Backstrom - the Slovenian centre being the only surprise on that list).
  • Conversely, 15 players jump 10+ spots (comparing where they rank in primary vs total points). These are mostly pure goal-scorers (Bossy, both Hulls, Gartner, Verbeek, Ciccarelli, Nieuwendyk - though there are some exceptions like McDavid, Mogilny and LaFontaine).
  • EDIT - I didn't bother breaking ties in either of the rankings (primary or total points) - for a small number of players, the movements might be off by +/-1 spot in either direction
  • One more edit - I want to highlight Maurice Richard. He "only" ranks 107th in total points (so he's not listed in this table), but he jumps to 78th in primary points. Not only is he a pure shooter (so he didn't get many assists in total - primary or secondary), he also played during the Original Six era (when there were fewer assists per goal). Notice how nearly all pre-expansion players look better once secondary assists are discarded. (If Gordie Howe had a "typical" ratio of primary to secondary assists, he would have surpassed 2,000 points).
 
Last edited:

Dingo

Registered User
Jul 13, 2018
1,938
1,948
so, i was the guy who asked for this, thanks, as always - this must be the 6th private request you have granted.

I didnt request how they moved up or down from regular career points, but it is very interesting that you put that in. I was talking today to my Crosby-loving, Ovechkin-detracting buddy. I was trying to convince him that Ovechkin is actually a decent passer, but that wingers usually are the ones finishing the play, and rarely lead the league in assists. I said it would be wrong to expect a winger to be a huge assist compiler, as when you score it negates any secondary assist you might have gotten, ad you dont ever get faceoff win assists. Conversely, centremen compile a ton of secondary assists due to faceoffs and to digging the puck out of the back end, or transfering the puck from neutral ice.... they dont play as 'forward' as the wingers do, typically.

i showed how, in the top 100 career assist players, more dmen are there than wingers, kr at least its close.

So, anyways. the interesting part is that you have included where they fell or rose from regular point totals.

I notice that, with definite exceptions, wingers have rose, many of them by a LOT, centers have fallen perhaps a bit overall, and defencemen have REALLY FALLEN.

Now, none of this needs to be about Crosby or Ovechkin, but it could be looked at in a way of rating positional players by way of their deployment. centers, maybe to a small degree, and defencemen to a large degree, live off of takeaways and making good, smart zone exits over and over at a high percentage. Wingers are there to capitalize, and not to play a 200ft game...... simplistically speaking.

I like beer, though, so...

Someone asked me for a list of the players with the most primary points. Here's the list as of yesterday (November 18th, 2024) - looking only at the 99 players with 1,000+ total points:

PlayerPrimaryRank (all)Rank (prim)Difference
Wayne Gretzky2,218
1​
1​
0​
Gordie Howe1,547
4​
2​
2​
Jaromir Jagr1,450
2​
3​
-1​
Mark Messier1,445
3​
4​
-1​
Marcel Dionne1,393
6​
5​
1​
Ron Francis1,346
5​
6​
-1​
Mario Lemieux1,344
8​
7​
1​
Steve Yzerman1,342
7​
8​
-1​
Alex Ovechkin1,299
13​
9​
4​
Phil Esposito1,273
11​
10​
1​
Sidney Crosby1,225
10​
11​
-1​
Joe Sakic1,202
9​
12​
-3​
Teemu Selanne1,177
18​
13​
5​
Dale Hawerchuk1,132
22​
14​
8​
Brett Hull1,129
25​
15​
10​
Stan Mikita1,126
17​
16​
1​
Joe Thornton1,113
14​
17​
-3​
Mark Recchi1,108
15​
18​
-3​
Mike Gartner1,091
33​
19​
14​
Doug Gilmour1,084
21​
20​
1​
Brendan Shanahan1,083
28​
22​
6​
Luc Robitaille1,083
24​
21​
3​
Mats Sundin1,076
30​
23​
7​
Johnny Bucyk1,075
27​
24​
3​
Dave Andreychuk1,071
31​
25​
6​
Bryan Trottier1,066
19​
26​
-7​
Jari Kurri1,064
23​
27​
-4​
Denis Savard1,056
32​
28​
4​
Jarome Iginla1,054
37​
30​
7​
Mike Modano1,054
26​
29​
-3​
Guy Lafleur1,052
29​
31​
-2​
Pierre Turgeon1,035
34​
32​
2​
Gilbert Perreault1,028
35​
33​
2​
Paul Coffey1,026
16​
34​
-18​
Adam Oates1,005
20​
35​
-15​
Evgeni Malkin1,000
36​
36​
0​
Ray Bourque997
12​
37​
-25​
Patrick Kane994
38​
38​
0​
Bobby Hull976
56​
39​
17​
Norm Ullman966
45​
40​
5​
Dino Ciccarelli958
52​
41​
11​
Alex Delvecchio955
39​
42​
-3​
Jean Beliveau951
46​
43​
3​
Jean Ratelle946
41​
44​
-3​
Mike Bossy942
63​
45​
18​
Peter Stastny938
42​
46​
-4​
Michel Goulet933
58​
48​
10​
Bernie Nicholls933
50​
47​
3​
Jeremy Roenick925
48​
49​
-1​
Patrick Marleau921
53​
50​
3​
Steven Stamkos918
59​
51​
8​
Vincent Damphousse906
51​
52​
-1​
Joe Nieuwendyk904
64​
54​
10​
Darryl Sittler904
65​
55​
10​
Sergei Fedorov904
55​
53​
2​
Bobby Clarke899
49​
56​
-7​
Rod Brind'Amour891
54​
57​
-3​
Anze Kopitar887
44​
58​
-14​
Marian Hossa879
61​
59​
2​
Glenn Anderson861
67​
60​
7​
Daniel Alfredsson859
57​
61​
-4​
Frank Mahovlich857
66​
62​
4​
Alexander Mogilny847
87​
64​
23​
Pat Verbeek847
77​
63​
14​
Theo Fleury841
68​
65​
3​
Keith Tkachuk838
73​
67​
6​
Bernie Federko838
62​
66​
-4​
Joe Pavelski836
72​
68​
4​
Henri Richard824
80​
71​
9​
John Tavares824
78​
70​
8​
Eric Staal824
76​
69​
7​
Joe Mullen822
75​
72​
3​
Brian Bellows819
91​
73​
18​
Pat LaFontaine818
95​
74​
21​
Ray Whitney816
74​
75​
-1​
Dave Taylor809
71​
76​
-5​
Al MacInnis804
40​
77​
-37​
Phil Housley799
43​
78​
-35​
Daniel Sedin796
81​
79​
2​
Patrice Bergeron786
82​
80​
2​
Lanny McDonald779
97​
82​
15​
Alex Kovalev779
88​
81​
7​
Bobby Smith776
83​
83​
0​
Martin St. Louis773
85​
84​
1​
Steve Larmer772
96​
85​
11​
Connor McDavid765
99​
86​
13​
Patrik Elias763
90​
87​
3​
Rod Gilbert760
92​
88​
4​
Claude Giroux755
69​
89​
-20​
Brian Propp738
98​
90​
8​
Dale Hunter727
93​
91​
2​
Larry Murphy726
47​
92​
-45​
Doug Weight714
84​
93​
-9​
Ryan Getzlaf710
94​
94​
0​
Henrik Sedin697
70​
95​
-25​
Nicklas Lidstrom689
60​
96​
-36​
Brian Leetch682
89​
97​
-8​
Nicklas Backstrom671
86​
98​
-12​
Denis Potvin667
79​
99​
-20​

Some quick comments:
  • For the record, I don't think that primary points should be over-emphasized. I can dig up the links another time, but I've shown that secondary assists have informational value and shouldn't be discarded.
  • Gretzky is (once again) in a class of his own. Howe is the only other player in NHL history to reach 1,500 primary points, and Gretzky is more than 650 points ahead of him. (Also, Gretzky has 1,324 primary assists - no other player in NHL history has even reached 800).
  • Only five players on this list average more than 1 primary point per game. (This number, obviously, is highly influenced by the length of a player's career, and the scoring environment). Those players are Gretzky (1.49), Lemieux (1.47), Bossy (1.25), McDavid (1.16) and Dionne (1.03).
  • Which players lose the most ground (when comparing how they rank in total points vs just primary points)? 12 players drop 10+ spots. Not surprisingly, defenseman are the most affected. Blueliners occupy the bottom four spots, and six of the bottom seven. The forwards with the biggest drops are mostly pure playmakers (H. Sedin, Giroux, Oates, Kopitar, Backstrom - the Slovenian centre being the only surprise on that list).
  • Conversely, 15 players jump 10+ spots (comparing where they rank in primary vs total points). These are mostly pure goal-scorers (Bossy, both Hulls, Gartner, Verbeek, Ciccarelli, Nieuwendyk - though there are some exceptions like McDavid, Mogilny and LaFontaine).
  • EDIT - I didn't bother breaking ties in either of the rankings (primary or total points) - for a small number of players, the movements might be off by +/-1 spot in either direction
interesting, i didnt read your footnotes. looks like we are both looking for explanations.

i also do not think secondary assists should be treated as lesser. In fact, rather than worrying about Selke votes, lets appreciate that Kopitar, Datsyuk, Bergeron, Forsberg, Toews et al likely gathered a lot of points by way of constantly touching the puck in their own end?
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
20,162
17,206
Tokyo, Japan
Only five players on this list average more than 1 primary point per game. (This number, obviously, is highly influenced by the length of a player's career, and the scoring environment). Those players are Gretzky (1.49), Lemieux (1.47), Bossy (1.25), McDavid (1.16) and Dionne (1.03).
Just for some added context to this (as McDavid is still in prime and Bossy's career was all prime):

-- From 1979-80 through 1990-91 [aged 18 to 30], Gretzky averaged 1.84 primary points-per-game
-- From 1984-85 though 1995-97 [aged 19 to 30], Lemieux averaged 1.58 primary points-per-game.
 

Johnny Engine

Moderator
Jul 29, 2009
5,057
2,496
A friend sent me a Corey Perry on Marc-Andre Fleury goal and asked if their 79 combined years was anywhere close to a record. Of course, I immediately looked to 1979-80 and found that Gordie Howe scored on Tony Esposito for 88 combined years, which is just about impossible to top. A goalie-skater pair did co-exist in 2007-08 with a combined 89 years, but of course they both played for the Detroit Red Wings. Bower's last game at 45 saw mostly younger players score on him, and Jagr's last goal at 45 was against a mid-20s Petr Mrazek.
The best combination I can find for Jagr is 81 years with Ryan Miller, and Chelios has one that makes 83 years with Dwayne Roloson.
Tim Horton and Jacques Plante would have missed that mark by 1 had Horton scored on Plante in 1973 - I don't have a list of who got any of the 103 goals Plante surrendered that year, but it wasn't Horton anyway and it wasn't Alex Delvecchio either, who's a year younger. So it has to be Howe and Tony-O.

If I had scoring logs from the WHA, it's very possible that one of Gordie Howe's 34 goals in 1974-75 was also one of Jacques Plante's 88 goals against, for a total of 93 years between them. But I don't have that and that wouldn't be the NHL record.
 
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Voight

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Feb 8, 2012
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Good trivia question: Erik Johnson reaching 1,000 games made the 2006 Draft the first ever where the top seven selections reached the millennium milestone. Johnson went first, followed by Jordan Staal, Jonathan Toews, Nicklas Backstrom, Phil Kessel, Derick Brassard and Kyle Okposo.
 
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The Panther

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Mar 25, 2014
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It's often forgotten that Bobby Hull played in both the 1950s and in the 1980s.

Hull played against Tony Leswick in 1957-58 and against Ray Bourque (once) in March, 1980.
 

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