Proposal: NYR-Ducks

Spazkat

Registered User
Feb 19, 2015
4,362
2,277
The player I want from the Ducks is Shea Theodore.

I'd do a Nash, Fast/Lindberg, Legit NHL prospect, 2nd round pick for

Theodore
Two of the following:
Cogliano
Depres
Silfverberg
Bieksa
Montour

Perhaps prospect or AHL pieces and picks to match.

I'm sure you would... the real question is why would the Ducks do that? Especially when it comes to Nash, the "do not want" thing has been pretty well unanimous- and that was before you decided to ask for their very best, most NHL ready prospect prospect.
 

bernmeister

Registered User
Jun 11, 2010
28,614
4,190
Da Big Apple

Not really the point. You're still offering up an asset you don't have. It isn't a small asset, either. I could say Anaheim deals for Ceci, and then try to say another team will overpay for him. That doesn't mean it isn't silly. There is a pretty big obstacle in the way of that, and it's actually acquiring Ceci.

Although your posts generally (to my memory) and this one in particular attempts a degree of genuine authentic quality I think the above para fails there.

It was not a Rube Goldberg contraption of 18 deals, and by the time we get to you, Ducks are 16th down the line. It is a straight 1 off, and I explained how reasonable it was to postulate a primo LD for a primo RD. Although McD is cheaper short term, I see longer term Trouba DOES fit Ducks better, cause it makes possible a long term deal from a lower # than McD; Trouba is also younger.

Whether it was as I presented it, or if it were formally presented as a '3 way', which is accepted practice at the boards, it was reasonable, not unreasonable, and I respectfully rebuke your complaint as to that.


And Anaheim wouldn't make that deal for those pieces. You haven't considered Anaheim's needs at all. Why in the world are they moving a cheap, but good defenseman in Manson and two of their best prospects in Montour and Theodore? How in the world do you expect Anaheim to afford re-signing Lindholm, Trouba, and Rakell? Not only would this deal put them in a massive bind now, but it puts them in an even greater one later, because they just lost three good, and cost effective assets that will help them remain competitive moving forward.

That's just the financial, and cost-controlled side. It's not even considering the actual player value of Manson, Montour, and Theodore. With all due respect to Trouba, who is a good, young talent, but he isn't worth that. There is no way Anaheim is moving Theodore for Trouba and adding Montour and Manson to the pot.

couple of things:
I view Theodore as another Skjei, Montour, at best another Skjei, Manson a sweetener. The promise/potential is the basis of offer, but the kicker is the ability to avoid expansion draft requirement.

You guys apparently view all three not at Skjei level, but as if they were EACH Hanifin AT MIN.
You also severely discount Trouba, IMO. From memory Draisatil is exempt. If you remain blessed w/surplus of D, consider something around Trouba + for Drai +. And that is just one example.

Theo all alone does not = Trouba, not at this point.
Ergo, I was entitled to demand the correct add.

As to how I expect Ducks to pay, the fact is you have an abundance on the backline and you need to consolidate to improve the team and have less exposure at the expansion draft.
Stuff is complicated. You make a deal, any deal, cause it is an improvement, great. Then you have follow up work, you have to make further moves to smooth the edges.

It's nice if you get that exception to the rule. If you get that magic bullet that addresses multiple issues all at once. But that is the exception.

I explained how Trouba would get 6 per for 7 years, If you are THAT constrained, you can likely do 4.5 the first year, 6m the next five, and 7.5 for the last year. If you had kept the three I asked for that is 2 ELCs just under 1 and Manson I forget if he is a little over. Whatever the exact #, it is close enough to 4.5 that it would only be a minor deal, presumably, to cover that much cap difference.

Thank you again for a civilized discussion and not :rant::rant::rant::rant:.
I believe the core issue here is how we value Trouba and the return -- again, theodore and Montour should be closer to Skjei, at this point.

I do not believe given that we can agree and have a follow up trade
I make the first deal and keep Trouba

If I overlooked something, pls advise.
 

bernmeister

Registered User
Jun 11, 2010
28,614
4,190
Da Big Apple
The player I want from the Ducks is Shea Theodore.

I'd do a Nash, Fast/Lindberg, Legit NHL prospect, 2nd round pick for

Theodore
Two of the following:
Cogliano
Depres
Silfverberg
Bieksa
Montour

Perhaps prospect or AHL pieces and picks to match.

That won't cut it.

I am not optimistic we can do any deals, the closest might be Zuc + small add for Sami V + small add
 

pld459666

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
26,126
8,389
Danbury, CT
The player I want from the Ducks is Shea Theodore.

I'd do a Nash, Fast/Lindberg, Legit NHL prospect, 2nd round pick for

Theodore
Two of the following:
Cogliano
Depres
Silfverberg
Bieksa
Montour

Perhaps prospect or AHL pieces and picks to match.

Ducks laugh that one off.
 

Paul4587

Registered User
Jan 26, 2006
31,197
13,215
I'm sure you would... the real question is why would the Ducks do that? Especially when it comes to Nash, the "do not want" thing has been pretty well unanimous- and that was before you decided to ask for their very best, most NHL ready prospect prospect.

With Nash it's not a matter of the player, we just flat out can't afford him - even if he was in his mid to late 20's he wouldn't be an appealing option purely due to his price tag. Once Lindholm and Rakell are signed we are going to be about $6M over our budget. So unless NYR takes Bieksa and Stoner back and retains we can't fit him under our internal cap.
 

Spazkat

Registered User
Feb 19, 2015
4,362
2,277
With Nash it's not a matter of the player, we just flat out can't afford him - even if he was in his mid to late 20's he wouldn't be an appealing option purely due to his price tag. Once Lindholm and Rakell are signed we are going to be about $6M over our budget. So unless NYR takes Bieksa and Stoner back and retains we can't fit him under our internal cap.

Exactly. You don't trade your best expansion exempt ELC prospect for an aging 8M/year injury prone player. You especially don't do it as a budget team already running dangerously close to the edges of your spending limit.

I'm unclear why Rangers fans locked onto ANA to dump Nash on, especially when not a single one has ever expressed interest in taking him and that huge contract on.
 

WhatTheDuck

9 - 20 - 8
May 17, 2007
24,002
17,383
Worst Case, Ontario
Exactly. You don't trade your best expansion exempt ELC prospect for an aging 8M/year injury prone player. You especially don't do it as a budget team already running dangerously close to the edges of your spending limit.

I'm unclear why Rangers fans locked onto ANA to dump Nash on, especially when not a single one has ever expressed interest in taking him and that huge contract on.

There was some misinformed, unreliable Twitter page suggesting the Ducks had interest in Nash at the start of the off season, and people keep bringing it up since. If you look at the Ducks budget situation, Nash makes very little sense at all. Putting him in discussions for a young Dman of Lindholm's caliber is absolutely laughable in every sense of the word. The only way I could see the Ducks having any interest in Nash at all would be in a Phaneuf style deal where we dump a bunch of unwanted short term money and add non blue chip futures. The Rangers would likely be better off keeping Nash in that scenario.
 

go4hockey

Registered User
Oct 14, 2007
6,216
2,469
Alta Loma CA
How about

To NYR:
Lindholm
Bieksa

To Ducks:
Nash @50% retained
Zuccarello
Klein

Any package for a guy like Lindholm that starts with Nash is junk and Ducks would have less than zero interest. Libdholm is not available or most teams in the league could beat your deal with younger and better offers.
 

aufheben

#Norris4Fox
Jan 31, 2013
53,866
27,720
New Jersey
Youre wrong. and the fact that you are the only one who thinks Kesler is 'at best' a 2nd line center is telling enough.

But at least you tried and got a participation medal.
Kesler has been puting up 2nd line numbers for 6 years. :help:

I don't think he's not worse than that, but 'at best' isn't wrong either.
 
Last edited:

mytduxfan*

Guest
Kesler has been puting up 2nd line numbers for 6 years. :help:

I don't think he's not worse than that, but 'at best' isn't wrong either.

He's been putting up 2nd line numbers for the passed 5 years. He was putting up 1st line numbers for 3 seasons before that. :help:

He's not a #2C "at best". He's easily a #2C and arguably the best true # 2C in the league. So "yes", the use of the phrase "at best" is wrong as it suggests he's a fringe #2C or only a #2C when playing his best hockey, which couldn't be further from the truth.
 

mytduxfan*

Guest
Dang the oilers fans must have told them manson is carrying lindholm defensively

Yeah, it's pretty obvious that's what some fans are making their decision on. Advanced stats only. Anyone who has watched Manson will know that he's inconsistent and will likely top out at a good #4 guy.
 

Sojourn

Registered User
Nov 1, 2006
50,523
9,377
Kesler has been puting up 2nd line numbers for 6 years. :help:

I don't think he's not worse than that, but 'at best' isn't wrong either.

He's "at best" an elite #2C. I'm fine with saying he's a 2C. I think that's an accurate statement for a team that is trying to win. He might be a 1C on a team that isn't as competitive, or is very deep throughout. But let's not pretend every 2C is created equal here. There are different levels of 2C, and Kesler is pretty clearly a higher end one.

What Amity suggested is that not only is Kesler just a 2C, but he's a lower end one. He used the term in a negative fashion, to suggest that he's only a 2C at his very best. The list he created, and the argument for why this is the case, is pretty ridiculous, and infers that he is less than that.
 

NYR Viper

Registered User
Sep 9, 2007
47,786
18,360
Jacksonville, FL
Would something like:

Nash at 70% for Silfverberg + Theodore be possible? May need to be small pieces on either side but as a basis for a deal?
 

Ducks in a row

Go Ducks Quack Quack
Dec 17, 2013
18,068
4,447
U.S.A.
Would something like:

Nash at 70% for Silfverberg + Theodore be possible? May need to be small pieces on either side but as a basis for a deal?

Nash is 32 years old 2 of the last 3 years he has had injury problems causing him to miss a lot of games and is a UFA in two years and we won't sign him to a new contract after that. If we had Nash we would have to use a protection slot on him otherwise he could be taken in expansion draft and we would only of had him for 1 season. Not trading for Nash and especially not at the cost of Silfverberg and Theodore. How anyone could think we make a trade like that is beyond me Nash is not even close to worth it.
 

Group Chat Legend*

Guest
Would something like:

Nash at 70% for Silfverberg + Theodore be possible? May need to be small pieces on either side but as a basis for a deal?

Woah that is way awful for Anaheim.

Like wow thats gross
 

Trapper

Registered User
Nov 21, 2013
24,658
12,824
Would something like:

Nash at 70% for Silfverberg + Theodore be possible? May need to be small pieces on either side but as a basis for a deal?

The max you can retain is 50%.
But it doesn't matter, no way Anaheim makes that deal.
 

SensNation613

Registered User
Dec 30, 2013
2,261
63
Ottawa
ATLANTIC

Florida: Not playing ahead of Barkov or Bjugstad.
Tampa: Stamkos and Johnson.
Boston: Bergeron, Krejci, Backes and Bruins fans would even say Spooner after the season he had.
Ottawa: Brassard and Turris.
Buffalo: Eichel and ROR.
Montreal: Galchenyuk and Plekanec. (Kesler more suited for 3rd line)

METRO

Rangers: Stepan and Zibanejad.
Isles: Possible, but with Nielsen gone Strome will get 2nd line minutes.
Pittsburgh: Sid and Geno.
Philly: Giroux and Schenn.
Washington: Backstrom and Kuznetsov.

CENTRAL

Dallas: Seguin/Benn and Spezza.
Chicago: Toews and Panarin.
St. Louis: Stastny and Lehtera (him, Tarasenko and Schwartz have been one of the best lines in the NHL the past 2 seasons)
Nashville: Johansen and Ribeiro. (Kesler more suited for 3rd line)
Colorado: Duchene and MacKinnon.
Minnesota: Koivu and Granlund. (Kesler more suited for 3rd line role)

PACIFIC

LA: Kopitar and Carter.
SJ: Couture and Thornton.
Edmonton: McJesus and Draisaitl.
Calgary: Monahan, Backlund/Bennett. (Kesler more suited for 3rd line role)

I just listed 20 teams that either definitely would or there would be some real tough decisions to make.

Think about that before you laugh like a fool.

Underlined those who were < to Kesler and bolded those who fairly = to Kesler.
 
Oct 18, 2011
44,270
10,186
Although your posts generally (to my memory) and this one in particular attempts a degree of genuine authentic quality I think the above para fails there.

It was not a Rube Goldberg contraption of 18 deals, and by the time we get to you, Ducks are 16th down the line. It is a straight 1 off, and I explained how reasonable it was to postulate a primo LD for a primo RD. Although McD is cheaper short term, I see longer term Trouba DOES fit Ducks better, cause it makes possible a long term deal from a lower # than McD; Trouba is also younger.

Whether it was as I presented it, or if it were formally presented as a '3 way', which is accepted practice at the boards, it was reasonable, not unreasonable, and I respectfully rebuke your complaint as to that.




couple of things:
I view Theodore as another Skjei, Montour, at best another Skjei, Manson a sweetener. The promise/potential is the basis of offer, but the kicker is the ability to avoid expansion draft requirement.

You guys apparently view all three not at Skjei level, but as if they were EACH Hanifin AT MIN.
You also severely discount Trouba, IMO. From memory Draisatil is exempt. If you remain blessed w/surplus of D, consider something around Trouba + for Drai +. And that is just one example.

Theo all alone does not = Trouba, not at this point.
Ergo, I was entitled to demand the correct add.

As to how I expect Ducks to pay, the fact is you have an abundance on the backline and you need to consolidate to improve the team and have less exposure at the expansion draft.
Stuff is complicated. You make a deal, any deal, cause it is an improvement, great. Then you have follow up work, you have to make further moves to smooth the edges.

It's nice if you get that exception to the rule. If you get that magic bullet that addresses multiple issues all at once. But that is the exception.

I explained how Trouba would get 6 per for 7 years, If you are THAT constrained, you can likely do 4.5 the first year, 6m the next five, and 7.5 for the last year. If you had kept the three I asked for that is 2 ELCs just under 1 and Manson I forget if he is a little over. Whatever the exact #, it is close enough to 4.5 that it would only be a minor deal, presumably, to cover that much cap difference.

Thank you again for a civilized discussion and not :rant::rant::rant::rant:.
I believe the core issue here is how we value Trouba and the return -- again, theodore and Montour should be closer to Skjei, at this point.

I do not believe given that we can agree and have a follow up trade
I make the first deal and keep Trouba

If I overlooked something, pls advise.
sorry to inform you but not every teams assets are crap as compared to the rangers
 

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