Proposal: NYR-BUF

[Hasekperreault23]

Rangers are not sending bluest blue chip elcs for anyone, period.
Zib is available.
Chytil is not.
Buch + Strome are available due to Kravtsov + Barron
that is the core of what we would send.
could possibly juggle bad retained Skinner contract to NYR
help you out w/Huska for expiring Hutton

that is about it.
If that doesn't work, NYR will sell those assets a la carte

I guess you aren't looking at it from Buffalo point of view.If they are rebuilding (again) why would they take players older than Eichel and less talented? If Rangers think they can win adding Eichel but giving up blue chip prospects would be the ONLY way for them to gf course then the cap becomes an issue etc.Lets just say we aren't good trading partners and leave it like that lol.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Rangers are not sending bluest blue chip elcs for anyone, period.
Zib is available.
Chytil is not.
Buch + Strome are available due to Kravtsov + Barron
that is the core of what we would send.
could possibly juggle bad retained Skinner contract to NYR
help you out w/Huska for expiring Hutton

that is about it.
If that doesn't work, NYR will sell those assets a la carte

Why on earth do you pretend to speak with knowledge and authority? For over a decade everyone from every board has pointed out how poorly thought out your trades are. I can't imagine being that oblivious

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

bold is false, see below + my comments




The underline assumes Eichel in Buffalo cannot be saved by my premise which was dealing Dahlin for substantial help w/mid 20s F help [Buch + Strome] + one older 20s guy Zib. Those 3 are enough to give Sabes a robust F corps. Still have probs, but that consolidates the problems to LD [expecting emerging RD to arrive soon] and backup G.
I get BUF may want to talk to Zib first about extension, and that's not a prob. Zib has to decide even covid notwithstanding, hard cap league is leaving less and less openings for big long term $. He has to decide if he still wants to chase that, or do something like 6.75-7.25 for medium term or less. Rangers can't afford him w/Trouba and shouldn't be buyers, $ aside, for anything beyond 3 yr term.

The other thing I object to is aside from excessive discounting of Zib, Buch + Strome b'c they are not shiny enough baubles for some, there were other signif aspects to this prop being ignored,
I specifically said we would take on Skinner reduced to 6.5. That is humongous.
I also said we'd take Hutton now and throw in Huska as a sweetener.

So if you want your cake and eat it too, fine, roll the dice and see if Eich stays if there is more of the same w/out dramatic impact showing improvement.

We don't expect the Kings to move Byfield.
MAYBE Ducks put enuf on the table for JE [Zegras +]; maybe they are thin on rebuild they can't afford to do that.

If you get a better deal fine.
If not fine.

But NY is not paying in the currency of bluest blue chip elcs.
For JE or anyone else.
That we need to manage our own cap going forward.

This is just a self indulgence.

Shush. You don't understand hockey. You don't understand player values or team needs. You never have. Have some respect for other people's time and some self awareness

 

[dellzor]

you have a franchise C locked in for the next 6 years and fans don't want to give up chytil kakko wtf?

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Rangers aren’t getting Eichel without Lafreniere.

You'd be a good playmate for bernmeister. At least you keep it short though

NYR offering rykov, buchnevich, 2nd are delusional.

Buff demanding laf/kakko? Or not admitting it's likely decent young quantity and picks for eichel are also delusional.

Zibanejads value is in the shitter now. Buch ain't signed and his next contract will sting.

chytil, nils, kravtsov, k'andre are in the discussion. I only give one of those 4 but thats me. Realistically it could be two of them, 1, 1, and then a mix of an nhler or two or B level prospects for eichel...maybe some cap retained. Hurts a lot more than nyr fans would like, doesn't get back the diamond buff fans would like. That's how it usually goes.

 

[bernmeister]

Bern, I got as far as your mention of Dahlin. Again--Buffalo is nowhere near competing. They need more than some top 6 forwards. They have issues on D, issues in goal, issues with ownership, and frankly, issues with team culture. They need to bring in some heart and soul guys and then cut bait on any players who are content to collect a paycheck and call it a day. Until their ownership realizes that, they will continue to be a place where talent goes to die (much like the Rangers in the early aughts).

One of the ONLY players they are pretty much GUARANTEED to hold on to is their 1st overall 20 year old defenseman. They aren't even picking up the phone on him. And frankly, he's another one where I would hope the Rangers aren't calling. Defense is not a real concern on the Rangers right now or in the future. The right side is already locked down for years with Trouba, Fox, Lundkvist, and Schneider. The left side had Miller, Lindgren, and plenty of young options coming up through the system (and I remember reading somewhere that Lundkvist can actually play both sides equally well, so that might solve that problem as soon as next year).

You get these fixations around certain players (usually prospect defensemen) and get so enamored with them that you make proposals that don't make sense and don't fit the needs of EITHER team.

No Dahlin. No Eichel. Keep building through the stockpile of assets, and only make trades to fill a gap in that stockpile (like the discussions in the Colorado thread).

1 agree w/you on the last para, keep building.

Relative to: "They need more than some top 6 forwards" I also agree, with an asterisk. They need lots of help including at Fs on top of those areas you specified. Truth be told, to completely reverse Sabes current woes, both Eich and Dahlin would have to be sacrificed.
I am opining they may be able to save JE by dealing Dahlin, hoping emerging RD arrive, then getting lucky on repurposing existing RD and other assets into LD and backup G.
If they don't want to go there, fine.
But it is likely such move is necessary or dealing Jack becomes a forced fait a compli. [sp?]
Sabes hope for a star for star deal like Eich for Heiskanen is unlikely. Usually there is no profit in coke for pepsi; to get a major stud in a return for Eichel, BUF will have to add signif sweeteners --- which addition is a luxury Sabes can't afford to do.

As to the comments on Rangers D, there is no fixation on Dahlin.
Cozens is properly off the table, and emerging RDs is also a backwards robbing of Peter to pay Paul for BUF. So Dahlin is the only option [other than all draft picks] which contains a storehouse of value, and is cost controlled.
[If we think about it, if we are taking even a reduced Skinner back, we are justified in demanding some counterbalance of downward pressure on salary, which again can only be Dahlin. We then ultimately, depending on how far those emerging LDs emerge, either keep Dahlin and deal the surplus, or, best case scenario, after a year, we deal Dahlin for huge return.]
That is the strategy. Rangers have $ tied up in vets who do not fit long term if for no other reason due to salary cap. We must repurpose their value into futures; if we don't they walk and we do not recoup whatev investment in them we had. Skinner on the other hand, we already got ours just for taking him on. So we can retain and pay for a bottom cap team to add him; or see what SEA wants to absorb him; or just buy him out, which costs only $ and limited salary cap damage.

In conclusion, my suspicion is we get more selling our vets a la carte.
Given LA holds tight on Byfield, unless ANA moves Zegras, it appears Sabes will rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic while hoping for the best, and then it will be up to Eich if he wants to demand he's out or not.
{Prob is not nec Zegras, but how much more Sabes want on top of Zegras; can Ducks afford to empty the cupboard if it comes to that?}

Thank you @smoneil for a constructive exchange.

 

[ElLeetch]

Yes, that's why it was an apt response to your post. It matches the quality.

now you are just being disingenuous.

 

[bernmeister]

I guess you aren't looking at it from Buffalo point of view.If they are rebuilding (again) why would they take players older than Eichel and less talented? If Rangers think they can win adding Eichel but giving up blue chip prospects would be the ONLY way for them to gf course then the cap becomes an issue etc.Lets just say we aren't good trading partners and leave it like that lol.

I have looked at it from Sabes' side, as well as NYR.

1. Math does not lie. It is not only the extensive depth that multiple blue chip elcs mean to generate strong depth throughout the lineup which = valid counterstrategy to going w/one more super stud --- which unlike depth carries extra risk of putting all eggs in one basket, It is also elcs = downward salary pressure which = cost control which = long term roster flexibility.

2. I have suggested they consider sacrificing Dahlin for signif improvement that would reasonably good chance to keep Eichel.

3. But even if we abandon that and insist on looking at JE, Sabes need to realize they can get huge return, including overpay, but are not getting that in their choice of currency -- that will principally be by the suitor. Why?
because:
- usually not profitable [enough] for team to gut itself to add one guy
- if everyone is aware impetus to deal JE is being caused by Jack himself, then suitors can use that to leverage vs BUF.

4. As to "If they are rebuilding (again) why would they take players older than Eichel and less talented?", what you are not acknowledging is the total picture. You are implying these are super short term over the hill guys in an effort to swindle for Jack. That is mostly false and this is not a 1:1 where the main guy going back is a HoF great type like Malkin, in his 30s w/lots of mileage.

You are getting 2 guys mid 20s, Buch and Strome, who = 5 ish yrs shelf life or more.
You are getting Zib who is late 20s but that is immediate signif add; once he loses all covid rust that will be a premium piece whether you keep or flip him.

So while this is not the 1:1 or so Sabes are seeking -- and again, you are not getting Heiskanen or similar straight up --- it is enough quantity add to justify consideration. You should do the best overall move which depends on competitive bids.
We are pressing a guy like Buch instead of a guy like Kravtsov b'c we prefer K's upside, and that he can also play pivot, whereas B is either W, but only a W. We are also doing that b'c we cannot afford Buch long term going forward. That is what rest of NHL has to understand as to who is available and why.

Finally, it is a fallacy to think NYR can just fork over bluest chip elcs.
We are not there yet.
If we listen to me, and upgrade our picks situation, and utilize our newly discovered ability to draft well, THEN after another couple of seasons, THEN we will have so much young talent on both the roster and in the system that dealing what is then an excess of blue chips can be considered.

But right now, that is not the case.
The media is pushing that to sell papers.
Other clubs are allowing it to see what this does to put pressure on Sabes to make a move, and if/when suitors do not up bids, Sabes will get screwed by being forced to take less [presumes Eich will force a trade, so keeping not an option].

but bern is calling it as he sees it, honestly.
tell it like it is, let your conscience be your guide.

 

[bernmeister]

Why on earth do you pretend to speak with knowledge and authority? For over a decade everyone from every board has pointed out how poorly thought out your trades are. I can't imagine being that oblivious

You appear to be intimidated by the fact that my musings usually have enough gravitas so that they can not be dismissed out of hand on merit.

I call it like I see it, whether it concurs w/conventional wisdom or not.

Let us know when you decide to champion free speech and the competition of ideas.

 

[bernmeister]

This is just a self indulgence.

Shush. You don't understand hockey. You don't understand player values or team needs. You never have. Have some respect for other people's time and some self awareness

Sez you.
A post mortem would demonstrate more hits than misses.

Recently this was being adamant about not selling short on Chytil, and being fast to get rid of Hajek.
Going back, there are illustrations often rejecting the win now search for instant gratification in many bases, which has me at odds with many. Their position is not inherently more meritorious. One example: we should have traded Girardi as a rental to ANA for OTT's 1st [11OA] before he got that big salary extension, and with too much shot blocking under Torts, fell apart.


Physician, heal thyself.

 

[bernmeister]

you have a franchise C locked in for the next 6 years and fans don't want to give up chytil kakko wtf?

read the posts.
math.
do not have excess of young depth that we can move youth and ruin our cap structure.

 

[bernmeister]

You'd be a good playmate for bernmeister. At least you keep it short though

NYR offering rykov, buchnevich, 2nd are delusional.

Buff demanding laf/kakko? Or not admitting it's likely decent young quantity and picks for eichel are also delusional.

Zibanejads value is in the shitter now. Buch ain't signed and his next contract will sting.

chytil, nils, kravtsov, k'andre are in the discussion. I only give one of those 4 but thats me. Realistically it could be two of them, 1, 1, and then a mix of an nhler or two or B level prospects for eichel...maybe some cap retained. Hurts a lot more than nyr fans would like, doesn't get back the diamond buff fans would like. That's how it usually goes.

called out for bs, which appears to be an emerging trend w/you.

bold: disingenuous.
That is not even remotely the entirety of the offer I made.
And you know it.
consider yourself fully shamed, you deserve it for deceit.

underline: mostly wrong.
Zib is impacted, but it is believed him getting covid just before camp = huge rust and he is still shedding that. But it is believed by most that is a switch that once, soon enuf, he can turn it on, will do so and it will remain on.

Buch will properly want/deserve a raise. He will not immediately get 6+ he is seeking. Covid/immediate aftermath will constrain salaries for another 2 seasons. His next deal is 4-5 per 1 season, or just north of 5 per for 2 seasons. That is not the bitch of an onerous deal you suggest.

Italicized: completely wrong. Those guys should NOT be in the discussion, and hopefully Gorton insists this is so. Want to consider replacing w/future 1sts? That can be on the table. But not our true core.

 

[TBF1972]

Why on earth do you pretend to speak with knowledge and authority? For over a decade everyone from every board has pointed out how poorly thought out your trades are. I can't imagine being that oblivious

freedom of speech is next in line.

there is absolutely nothing you can do. i just hit the ignore button right now.

 

[bleedblue94]

freedom of speech is next in line.

there is absolutely nothing you can do. i just hit the ignore button right now.

It is just frustrating bc it makes everyone else think that he represents the mindframe of all/most NYR fans and it derails any sort of sensible conversation

 

[TBF1972]

It is just frustrating bc it makes everyone else think that he represents the mindframe of all/most NYR fans and it derails any sort of sensible conversation

well your fanbase has even more 'issues' than the one and only.
but you are right, sometimes it's getting difficult to distinguish the reasonable posters of fan bases from the rest. for big fan bases like NYR or the big canadian markets the rest often is a big and loud group, which just drowns out the finer sounds coming from great hockey fans.

 

[klingsor]

Eichel is not going to NYC? I’m sry you’re struggling but i do believe you need to come to grips that Eichel, like Laaafontsine and Drury, will at some point become a NY Ranger. Everybody deserves to be a Ranger!!!! Everybody

See we like to collect names. Did you know the top 3 scorers of all-time were Rangers? Yup.

#1 scorer of all time, #99 was a Ranger.
#2 scorer of all time, Jagr was a Ranger. Apparently he’ll never stop playing so he might return
#3 Messier and we won one Cup in 81 years with him.

#6 all time Marcel Dionne made the trip East. He didn’t do much but it was a dream come true

#10 all time Phil Espo. Love the Bruins but i’ll wear the Rangers sweater if you pay me. He also became our GM and traded our highest pick in years for head coach Michel Bergeron only to fire him before the playoffs so he could coach and fail

Around #16 is Bryan Trottier and he couldn’t skate anymore so we gave him his first and only head coaching job. He lasted 54 games

#21 Jari Kurri was about to retire but we felt if he can skate he might as well be a Ranger

#22 Luc Robataille was quite a find yet he stopped playing in Ny so we traded him for Former Penguins all-star Kevin Stevens who stopped playing too (or maybe it was Stevens for Robataille? Tough to remember b/c we had so few memories worth keeping

Please don’t drift away and let me lose you now b/c

#26 all- time scorer Brendan Shanahan was also a Ranger. He didn’t do much and it a bit forgetful b/c
. . . The Flower!!!! #27 all-time scorer Guy LeFleur had never spent much time in NY so he figured, why not become a Ranger?

#31 Mike Gartner tormented us but we made him a Ranger only to ship him out for Edmonton’s all-time great Glenn Andersson

I might be boring you at this point so let me quickly add the names Eric Lindros, Pavel Bure, Theo Fleury, Steve Larmer, Bobby Holik, Marty McSorley, Kevin Lowe, Craig McTavish, and more come

Add the above up and we have one Cup at the cost of almost a billion dollars

So think again when you post that Eichel isn’t going to NYC. He might be 34 years of age when it happens but he’s coming. Everybody deserves to be Ranger

Smh - this blanking team

As a long time Rangers fan (over 60 years) your post made me laugh and cry simultaneously.

 

[bleedblue94]

well your fanbase has even more 'issues' than the one and only.
but you are right, sometimes it's getting difficult to distinguish the reasonable poster of fan bases from the rest. for big fan bases like NYR or the big canadian markets the rest often is a big and loud group, which just drowns out the finer sounds coming from great hockey fans.

I get that for sure. I'm an NYR fan but I believe I am pretty reasonable and can see both sides to the coin. There are questions I have for the reasonable buffalo posters but there is really nowhere to post them at this point bc on their board they will feel infiltrated and attacked and on here it's just a swamp anymore...

 

[TBF1972]

I get that for sure. I'm an NYR fan but I believe I am pretty reasonable and can see both sides to the coin. There are questions I have for the reasonable buffalo posters but there is really nowhere to post them at this point bc on their board they will feel infiltrated and attacked and on here it's just a swamp anymore...

i am not a buffalo fan, so i can't really answer.

good luck in search for a serious conversation.

 

[smoneil]

Narrative bullshit like this led to us making one of the most stupid and catastrophic trades in living memory. The "culture change" that's needed is firing Dollar General Tony Robbins straight into the sun and hiring an honest to God professional quality coach who knows his ass from a hole in the ground.

That's worth a try, but how many coaches have you had over the last half dozen years? The bottom line is that Buffalo--with the talent on its roster--should not be this bad. It's not a "narrative" either. I've seen the same thing with my own favorite team (we were "saved" by a mini-purge and then a re-set with the 2004 lockout). I've also been responsible for changing the culture for a couple of high school soccer teams. The process is always the same--bring in leadership with a healthy attitude and then cut the dead weight that doesn't want to march in the new direction, regardless of talent. So I actually agree that getting a new GM/Coach would be step one. Whether or not Eichel/Dahlin is part of the way forward or part of the "dead weight"? That's up in the air, but as I mentioned, it's mighty suspicious that Eichel seems to give up two months before the end of the season each of the last three years.

 

[sabremike]

That's worth a try, but how many coaches have you had over the last half dozen years? The bottom line is that Buffalo--with the talent on its roster--should not be this bad. It's not a "narrative" either. I've seen the same thing with my own favorite team (we were "saved" by a mini-purge and then a re-set with the 2004 lockout). I've also been responsible for changing the culture for a couple of high school soccer teams. The process is always the same--bring in leadership with a healthy attitude and then cut the dead weight that doesn't want to march in the new direction, regardless of talent. So I actually agree that getting a new GM/Coach would be step one. Whether or not Eichel/Dahlin is part of the way forward or part of the "dead weight"? That's up in the air, but as I mentioned, it's mighty suspicious that Eichel seems to give up two months before the end of the season each of the last three years.

Dude, stick to soccer. Seriously (particularly that last bit of bullshit about him giving up as he was clearly legit hurt and you haven't a clue). And as mentioned elsewhere: how many of those guys have gotten HC positions elsewhere?

 

[tsujimoto74]

now you are just being disingenuous.

Says the guy who tried to deliberately obscure the fact that Eichel has been a ~PPG or better player every year following his rookie season

 

[smoneil]

Dude, stick to soccer. Seriously (particularly that last bit of bullshit about him giving up as he was clearly legit hurt and you haven't a clue). And as mentioned elsewhere: how many of those guys have gotten HC positions elsewhere?

He was hurt during the last two months of EACH of the last three seasons? It's a trend with him. His production tanks as soon as he thinks the playoffs are out of reach. And I don't disagree with your point about coaching. Making the right hires at GM and HC and giving them the freedom to clean house of any malcontents is crucial. There were more than a few parents who complained about their kids being cut when our crew first came in, but within three years, the team went from being a joke and an embarrassment on the field (known more for racist taunting and red cards than for soccer) to being one of the top teams in the county. The previous players had more talent, but a couple players with talent and a bad attitude will never beat 11 players all on the same page. That's something that is true with all team sports.

 

[is the answer jesus]

Dude, stick to soccer. Seriously (particularly that last bit of bullshit about him giving up as he was clearly legit hurt and you haven't a clue). And as mentioned elsewhere: how many of those guys have gotten HC positions elsewhere?

This has been the biggest problem in the Eichel to the Rangers discussions. There's zero attempt to try and find a reasonable deal in good faith. It's bouncing from one narrative to the next to the next all in an attempt to devalue Eichel. He's not a franchise player, he's injury prone, most teams won't want or can't afford a 10 million dollar player, he's quit on his team, he won't allow the Sabres to trade him to certain teams and will fail to report if they do, he's already demanding to be traded. It might honestly be the biggest croc of sustained bullshit I've ever witnessed on this site and that's certainly saying something.

 

[CupSeeker]

Wow, he'd be the "leading scorer" on a team where Eichel, Hall, and Skinner are shooting 2-3% on the year. Very impressive

The problem is no matter how many times Sabres fans turn down these offers, another Rags fan pops up and repeats it verbatim or somehow produces an even worse offer. People are rightfully fed up with Rags homers

Keep Eichel; suck forever. I'd prefer to be patient with our kids then inject some of that Sabres loser mojo into our system. What was the last time you had any playoff success? French Connection? or fleeting Chris Drury magic? Terrible organization looking down at other teams' players. Priceless.

 

[CupSeeker]

you have a franchise C locked in for the next 6 years and fans don't want to give up chytil kakko wtf?

This claim of Eichel being a franchise center is still TBD. He appears to be lazy and selfish from what I've seen. There's risk in taking this guy. And of course, Kakko and Chytil are poor assets? Just dopey.