Nylander/Jokiharju Trade Talk 2

[Muffinalt]

That's pretty surprising, if true. For a sure fire top 4 defenseman and allegedly how much of a bust Nylander is no team could beat that offer? Doesn't add up

He just isnt one?

 

[clydesdale line]

the only Sabres fans allowed in this thread moving forward are Reddawg and Chainshot..outside of that, your ability to post in here has been revoked lol..

@Reddawg @Chainshot so they know they're loved lol.

I'll give @Woodhouse and @Dubi Doo some love too. They had quality posts on here as well.

 

[Kevin Musto]

The most surprising thing of this, for me, is that report buried somewhere in a thread that Joker was "very available at the draft" with "low expectations" or something of that nature.

No one wanting to swap a 1st for the guy says a lot even though he had quite the offseason.

Are we really that daft? I 100% had higher expectation on a possible return too.

Hawks were trying to move Joki at the 2019 draft for a late 1st?

It warms my heart that my man Stan tried to trade up for my boy Jakob Pelletier.

 

[Toews2Bickell]

He just isnt one?

I'm saying how he's perceived by people not working in hockey...if the report is the hawks made him readily available at the draft and nobody could beat the offer of this "big bust" buffalo fans say Nylander is then maybe Jokiharju was a tad bit overvalued on this board

 

[Toews2Bickell]

Thank you for your service @Reddawg

 

[Kevin Musto]

then maybe Jokiharju was a tad bit overvalued on this board

This has always been the case. This board looked at the 10 games he was good and thought he was the next great thing. Most overlooked that he sucked after that and he has attitude/ego problems. His ceiling ain't top pairing despite what Hawks fans will tell you.

 

[Muffinalt]

I'm saying how he's perceived by people not working in hockey...if the report is the hawks made him readily available at the draft and nobody could beat the offer of this "big bust" buffalo fans say Nylander is then maybe Jokiharju was a tad bit overvalued on this board

Oh my bad, then a totally agree with you.

 

[Muffinalt]

This has always been the case. This board looked at the 10 games he was good and thought he was the next great thing. Most overlooked that he sucked after that and he has attitude/ego problems. His ceiling ain't top pairing despite what Hawks fans will tell you.

It's funny coz most Buffalo and neutral fans overrate him the same way from what I saw.

 

[ClydeLee]

It's funny coz most Buffalo and neutral fans overrate him the same way from what I saw.

I would guess their take away is from hawks fans who love him and the advanced stats realm.

But I've asked and I've wanted to know if some site breaks stats like that from points in the season to compare how they were under JC vs Q

 

[Muffinalt]

I would guess their take away is from hawks fans who love him and the advanced stats realm.

But I've asked and I've wanted to know if some site breaks stats like that from points in the season to compare how they were under JC vs Q

I'd love to see that too, although small sample sizes unfortunately.

To be fair, I think Joki is tailor made for a system like Q, he could be somewhat more impactful there.

 

[Kevin Musto]

I'd love to see that too, although small sample sizes unfortunately.

To be fair, I think Joki is tailor made for a system like Q, he could be somewhat more impactful there.

8 points in 15 games with Q

4 points in 23 games with JC.

Not sure what the advanced stats look like though.

 

[Rooh]

I freaking love you @Reddawg

 

[Salvaged Ship]

This topic will not die. Hurry up season.......

 

[Kevin Musto]

8 points in 15 games with Q

4 points in 23 games with JC.

Not sure what the advanced stats look like though.

Okay more stats for ya.

With Q:

3 takeaways. 8 giveaways.

19 hits. 19 hits taken.

13 blocked shots.

3 rebounds created.

54.02 CF% (309 corsi for, 263 corsi against)

With JC:

2 takeaways. 16 giveaways.

27 hits. 20 hits taken.

22 blocker shots.

3 rebounds created.

54.17 CF% (357 corsi for, 302 corsi against)

 

[Muffinalt]

Okay more stats for ya.

With Q:

3 takeaways. 8 giveaways.

19 hits. 19 hits taken.

13 blocked shots.

3 rebounds created.

54.02 CF% (309 corsi for, 263 corsi against)

With JC:

2 takeaways. 16 giveaways.

27 hits. 20 hits taken.

22 blocker shots.

3 rebounds created.

54.17 CF% (357 corsi for, 302 corsi against)

Thanks for this. I thought there would be more difference tbh. But giveaways increased sharply and hits taken went down, I think that conforms with the getting overwhelmed and shying away from physicality angles.

 

[Chainshot]

*yawn* *snort* Eh? Did I miss something? I sense I have been summoned.

 

[TheSting]

This topic will not die. Hurry up season.......

Prospect camp Monday. Lots of big names.

Kids know there are a lot of open positions up and down the roster (aside from goalie). They will all come motivated to make the fast leap to the NHL.

 

[Chainshot]

I'm not sure if you guys are joking, so I'll just back peddle a page or two and see if I can offer anything of value (or at least talk puck edit - AS - my dinner reheats).

Anyone think the Sabres move Ristolainen before camp? In looking at the Sabre’s depth chart, assuming Risto is moved and ZB is washed up, does HJ automatically slot above Montour and Wilson in the Sabre’s depth chart? I could easily see HJ ending up in the AHL again looking at the Sabre’s depth chart.

It could very well be what they are looking at. They have an odd collection on RD between what they just acquired in Montour and Miller vs the old holdovers in Ristolainen and Bogosian. It wouldn't surprise me if the Sabres are looking for some mobility and 2-way game in a potential future partner for Dahlin. He lugged Bogosian around for a fair amount of last season after initially starting with journeyman/unknown depth RHD Casey Nelson as his partner (nothing against Nellie, he did pretty well in the job, especially with his stick to break plays up and stand up at the line). Consider Broke and Risto are fairly known commodities and neither one is particularly good at the whole "defense" side of their job description, it wouldn't surprise me if both of them are out of Buffalo. Of course Bogosian being hurt again means he'll likely be around to start the year, since he's recovering from hip surgery and there doesn't seem to be too many teams that foolish out there (I'm looking wistfully at you, Jim Benning...) to take him on not knowing at what level he will be playing. I would do mental backflips if they find a taker for him.

Short answer: yes, it's possible that Henri is playing with Dahlin, but we don't know if that means they'd be getting "top pair" assignments. It's also possible he starts in Rochester while they sort out the old guard for a month or two. Or somewhere in between. I tend to lean toward them wanting the potential for a mobile partner who is more complete than their only previous quality RHD prospect: shutdown guy Will Borgen out of St. Cloud who is very much a mobile player, but he seems to ignore the puck and offensive plays as much as he embraces defending.

Do you think HJ will make the Sabre’s roster out of training camp? Where will he slot if he does in your opinion?

It really depends on the guys who are there getting cleared out. They haven't flat out said they are moving Ristolainen, but there are enough media guys saying his name is out there and that the ask is large to lead me to believe they will move him. And of course, Benning was kicking the tires on Bogosian around the draft which... please, from my keys to the hockey gods ears, please take him away.

If Risto goes, I think he has a spot until Bogosian returns from IR in November/December at which point they will have a decision to make about who stays and who goes. My hope is that is dictate more by play on the ice and no just waiver exemption.

asked and answered

I am certain that Joker was brought in to be partnered with Dahlin and IMO they will become a dominant pairing in the future, Joker is almost a perfect match for him

and BWC' liked the post.

It would be fine with me if he turns out to be some sort of mini-Hjalmarsson down the line. They haven't had many good, mobile defenders in recent years. Or... like... most of this decade.

Hey all, Sabres fan here.
Just popped in to give a heads up on Nylander.
First off, read some remarks in the 2 threads on this trade on your boards, Buffalo is considered one of the top 10 developing organizati9ns in the league, so before you blame Nylanders absence at the NHL on a terrible organization, I strongly suggest you reconsider.

Wait... hang on... top 10? At development? I'm sorry, I'm going to have to ask you to step out of the car and walk down this line with your arms out at your sides because I'm not sure about sobriety at the moment.

Nylander isn't in the NHL because of Nylander. He's a project to be sure. Shows decent speed, but not abundantly over average. Has a nice shot, but nothing to write home about. Does well on perimeter play until somebody bodies him. He has decent hands, but often looses control 0f the puck in poor decision making.

I agree with the broad strokes that yes, Nylander has been as enigmatic a player in the AHL as we Sabre fans have seen. His first season it was pretty clear that his dad's insistence he stay in NA, a demand Murray capitulated to, was a lot of hot air and posturing that probably set the kid back. Then over that first summer he's supposed to do the same training regimen that William does and he winds up pulling a groin in Dev Camp and then flat out pops it badly in the first period of the first game of the rookie camp. He's now on the shelf, misses a chunk of the season and his attitude/habits continue to rub Amerk watchers the wrong way. The rumblings that he's not getting on the ice because he doesn't want to deal with the discomfort in the recovery process come from some people who are around the team (@keithLGA can probably speak more to that since... well... he is around the Amerks all the time but is a pretty steady voice in coverage of them).

Then comes his third camp. And he did well, neck and neck with Thompson through pre-season and he... gets sent down in favor of the current GM's new toy. Thompson struggles and the team invents a storyline that it is better for him to be up with the team, despite their limited practice schedule, to work on his game in the video room. Some of the beat guys who carry water for the team whenever they put something like this out there go and do their duty, repeating this instead of questioning the reasoning.

Nylander, who doesn't start well after the demotion gets outplayed by CJ Smith and Olofsson to start the year....

He had 3 years in Rochester to prove he was improving his play. He failed to show those improvements while others blew right by him, such as Asplund, Olofsson and a couple of others.

To be fair, Smith put in the work and earned that December 31st recall. Nylander's best stretch of hockey in Rochester oddly coincided with the big club's winning streak and then he got dinged again, slowing him down and then... he seemed to coast out much of the new year.

He appears better at the NHL level in the few games he did play in Buffalo, so that's the good news. The really bad news is there were whispers out of Rochester of some attitude issues, particularly entitlement mindset.

Agreed all around on that - he has looked better in his time up with the big club than he did in Rochester. And in the usual fashion for Phil, a player starts to play well and he immediately does a number on the guy, this time putting him on the ice with Larsson and Girgensons in that stupid 4/5ths defensive deployment scheme. Like... what about Nylander says "hey, I need to start 85% of my shifts down here by my own goalie and only give me 10-12 minutes a night 180' away from the other team's net"? I would say not much. It didn't play him to his strengths at all, even after it looked like he of all people unlocked something good out of Conor Sheary's stick last year.

Most of it is on Nylander for how he and his father postured to stay in NA and how he played in the AHL. But there is a little that is still on the Sabres for how they handled Thompson and how the late season recall unfolded.

Good to him in the Hawks organization. And try to remember, before judging Buffalo's development system on a players perceived pro level shortcomings, it is the wise man who remembers, Buffalo is the first organization in the modern hockey era to tear down everything, including the foundation, and build anew. Sometimes, it is the players own shortcomings that are the problem, not the organization.

I would not heap any praise the franchise's way yet. They are still trying to dig out from under multiple bad owners and multiple handcuffed GM's (be they handcuffed by circumstance, loyalties, or their own failures as talent assessors, drafters or developers). They have a long, long way to go.

Seems like my leftovers have gone cold again. Apologies on the novella.

 

[BobbyJet]

I'm not sure if you guys are joking, so I'll just back peddle a page or two and see if I can offer anything of value (or at least talk puck edit - AS - my dinner reheats).



It could very well be what they are looking at. They have an odd collection on RD between what they just acquired in Montour and Miller vs the old holdovers in Ristolainen and Bogosian. It wouldn't surprise me if the Sabres are looking for some mobility and 2-way game in a potential future partner for Dahlin. He lugged Bogosian around for a fair amount of last season after initially starting with journeyman/unknown depth RHD Casey Nelson as his partner (nothing against Nellie, he did pretty well in the job, especially with his stick to break plays up and stand up at the line). Consider Broke and Risto are fairly known commodities and neither one is particularly good at the whole "defense" side of their job description, it wouldn't surprise me if both of them are out of Buffalo. Of course Bogosian being hurt again means he'll likely be around to start the year, since he's recovering from hip surgery and there doesn't seem to be too many teams that foolish out there (I'm looking wistfully at you, Jim Benning...) to take him on not knowing at what level he will be playing. I would do mental backflips if they find a taker for him.

Short answer: yes, it's possible that Henri is playing with Dahlin, but we don't know if that means they'd be getting "top pair" assignments. It's also possible he starts in Rochester while they sort out the old guard for a month or two. Or somewhere in between. I tend to lean toward them wanting the potential for a mobile partner who is more complete than their only previous quality RHD prospect: shutdown guy Will Borgen out of St. Cloud who is very much a mobile player, but he seems to ignore the puck and offensive plays as much as he embraces defending.



It really depends on the guys who are there getting cleared out. They haven't flat out said they are moving Ristolainen, but there are enough media guys saying his name is out there and that the ask is large to lead me to believe they will move him. And of course, Benning was kicking the tires on Bogosian around the draft which... please, from my keys to the hockey gods ears, please take him away.

If Risto goes, I think he has a spot until Bogosian returns from IR in November/December at which point they will have a decision to make about who stays and who goes. My hope is that is dictate more by play on the ice and no just waiver exemption.



It would be fine with me if he turns out to be some sort of mini-Hjalmarsson down the line. They haven't had many good, mobile defenders in recent years. Or... like... most of this decade.



Wait... hang on... top 10? At development? I'm sorry, I'm going to have to ask you to step out of the car and walk down this line with your arms out at your sides because I'm not sure about sobriety at the moment.




I agree with the broad strokes that yes, Nylander has been as enigmatic a player in the AHL as we Sabre fans have seen. His first season it was pretty clear that his dad's insistence he stay in NA, a demand Murray capitulated to, was a lot of hot air and posturing that probably set the kid back. Then over that first summer he's supposed to do the same training regimine that William does and he winds up pulling a groin in Dev Camp and then flat out pops it badly in the first period of the first game of the rookie camp. He's now on the shelf, misses a chunk of the season and his attitude/habits continue to rub Amerk watchers the wrong way. The rumblings that he's not getting on the ice because he doesn't want to deal with the discomfort in the recovery process come from some people who are around the team (@keithLGA can probably speak more to that since... well... he is around the Amerks all the time but is a pretty steady voice in coverage of them).

Then comes his third camp. And he did well, neck and neck with Thompson through pre-season and he... gets sent down in favor of the current GM's new toy. Thompson struggles and the team invents a storyline that it is better for him to be up with the team, despite their limited practice schedule, to work on his game in the video room. Some of the beat guys who carry water for the team whenever they put something like this out there go and do their duty, repeating this instead of questioning the reasoning.

Nylander, who doesn't start well after the demotion gets outplayed by CJ Smith and Olofsson to start the year....



To be fair, Smith put in the work and earned that December 31st recall. Nylander's best stretch of hockey in Rochester oddly coincided with the big club's winning streak and then he got dinged again, slowing him down and then... he seemed to coast out much of the new year.



Agreed all around on that - he has looked better in his time up with the big club than he did in Rochester. And in the usual fashion for Phil, a player starts to play well and he immediately does a number on the guy, this time putting him on the ice with Larsson and Girgensons in that stupid 4/5ths defensive deployment scheme. Like... what about Nylander says "hey, I need to start 85% of my shifts down here by my own goalie and only give me 10-12 minutes a night 180' away from the other team's net"? I would say not much. It didn't play him to his strengths at all, even after it looked like he of all people unlocked something good out of Conor Sheary's stick last year.

Most of it is on Nylander for how he and his father postured to stay in NA and how he played in the AHL. But there is a little that is still on the Sabres for how they handled Thompson and how the late season recall unfolded.



I would not heap any praise the franchise's way yet. They are still trying to dig out from under multiple bad owners and multiple handcuffed GM's (be they handcuffed by circumstance, loyalties, or their own failures as talent assessors, drafters or developers). They have a long, long way to go.

Seems like my leftovers have gone cold again. Apologies on the novella.

Good to hear a different perspective from a Sabres fan on the subject. Thank-you

 

[Chainshot]

Good to hear a different perspective from a Sabres fan on the subject. Thank-you

Welcome. I am assuming he's just another player they've bollocked up developmentally over the time he's been with them, starting with getting off on the wrong foot with AHL time instead of going back to the SHL or back to junior. It wouldn't surprise me if he is a regular in the middle 6 for the Hawks next year.

The Sabres may have given him the inspirational kick in the pants that so many athletes talk about, that desire to show doubters just how much of a mistake those doubters made.

And I do think he will have moments when he will annoy people with the shortcomings in how he plays.

Hopefully he gives everyone a show on Monday at the Chicago dev camp. I look forward to hearing about how he is doing.

 

[BobbyJet]

Welcome. I am assuming he's just another player they've bollocked up developmentally over the time he's been with them, starting with getting off on the wrong foot with AHL time instead of going back to the SHL or back to junior. It wouldn't surprise me if he is a regular in the middle 6 for the Hawks next year.

The Sabres may have given him the inspirational kick in the pants that so many athletes talk about, that desire to show doubters just how much of a mistake those doubters made.

And I do think he will have moments when he will annoy people with the shortcomings in how he plays.

Hopefully he gives everyone a show on Monday at the Chicago dev camp. I look forward to hearing about how he is doing.

Re: the bolded above, my question is how much leash will Nylander get from JC? I think he needs to show patience, possible more patience than we've seen to date from him - it may be needed for this kid with obvious talent.

Sorta reminds me of the Duclair situation but this guy could mature enough to be special (based on some reviews namely in Junior and in his recent brief stint with Sabres).

 

[featherhawk]

Re: the bolded above, my question is how much leash will Nylander get from JC? I think he needs to show patience, possible more patience than we've seen to date from him - it may be needed for this kid with obvious talent.

Sorta reminds me of the Duclair situation but this guy could mature enough to be special (based on some reviews namely in Junior and in his recent brief stint with Sabres).

my guess is that a fresh start ALONE will have a huge impact for Nylander and his leash will be long IMO, Stan and Kelley obviously think that he can be an impact player and from what it seems like so far JC is involved in acquisitions and unlike Q and Stan; JC and Stan are on the same page....

 

[Blackhawks]

my guess is that a fresh start ALONE will have a huge impact for Nylander and his leash will be long IMO, Stan and Kelley obviously think that he can be an impact player and from what it seems like so far JC is involved in acquisitions and unlike Q and Stan; JC and Stan are on the same page....

It’s good to remain hopeful and I have heard that narrative so much already, yes Strome was in that kind of a situation where it worked out but more times than not it’s usually what you see is what you get, the performance on the ice reflects the amount of work someone is putting in and how much they are improving.

 

[AmericanDream]

@Reddawg @Chainshot so they know they're loved lol.

I'll give @Woodhouse and @Dubi Doo some love too. They had quality posts on here as well.

I feel like we are having an Avengers moment here - after years and years, the team is finally unfolding in front of our eyes..

@Reddawg
@Chainshot
@Jets4Life
@SUX2BU
@ps241
@Woodhouse
@DaveG

it is time!!!

also - excellent last post by Chainshot - exactly why his posting privileges were not revoked here lol!!!

 

[Toews2Bickell]

where is @Reddawg