Nylander contract discussion - New Poll

[Dekes For Days]

How would Matthews be worth less than Pasta?

He wouldn't. Some people are just horrible at contract valuations.

Well because there's a freeze on trades after the deadline in February so unless you wanted to trade your two biggest stars before then, you lost your leverage that day except for a tiny window of opportunity.

Trades can happen after the deadline. They are just ineligible to play that season. Which doesn't matter after the season.
Teams can make unrestricted trades long before June 28th.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Both player's NMC's kicked in Jul 1. Trades couldn't be made until after draft day (June 28).

So you're looking at only the actual signing period for only this particular summer, and ignoring the almost 15 full years when deals could have been discussed and agreed upon, if not actually signed.

But only for Matty and Mitch, because you say that Willy could be traded today.

 

[notDatsyuk]

How would Matthews be worth less than Pasta?

Pastrnak is a "Rocket winner, MVP finalist, and 60 goal and 115 point player".

So call it even, and Matty at $11.25? Still overpaid by $2 anywhere but Toronto, which was my point.

 

[Jojalu]

Pastrnak is a "Rocket winner, MVP finalist, and 60 goal and 115 point player".

So call it even, and Matty at $11.25? Still overpaid by $2 anywhere but Toronto, which was my point.

Matthews is a 2x Rocket winner,Hart and Lindsay winner, 60 goal scorer who plays a tougher position.

I don't love 13 mil but it is the least of Toronto's worries

 

[Oscar Peterson]

Matthews is a 2x Rocket winner,Hart and Lindsay winner, 60 goal scorer who plays a tougher position.

I don't love 13 mil but it is the least of Toronto's worries

Matthews' defensive game is also MILES ahead of Pasta's

 

[notDatsyuk]

Matthews is a 2x Rocket winner,Hart and Lindsay winner, 60 goal scorer who plays a tougher position.

I don't love 13 mil but it is the least of Toronto's worries

The point was that ever since the Tavares signing we've been overpaying our top players compared to the rest of the league.

Matthews' defensive game is also MILES ahead of Pasta's

You have to remember to include the or people may miss the sarcasm.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

So you're looking at only the actual signing period for only this particular summer, and ignoring the almost 15 full years when deals could have been discussed and agreed upon, if not actually signed.

But only for Matty and Mitch, because you say that Willy could be traded today.

FYI, I was very critical of the team when they didn't use their leverage over Matthews, and Marner when they had it. Feel free to look it up. But now they have a massive problem between two guys that will be looking for a big raise (Marner and Nylander) and they only have leverage over one guy now. You're making assumptions that are incorrect about what I'm saying.

 

[Gabriel426]

Have a feeling they will sign Willie and then won’t sign MM till Drai is sign somewhere else. Mainly bc they want to get into Drai sweepstake and also use Drai’s contract as an indication for MM’s contract.

 

[Oscar Peterson]

You have to remember to include the or people may miss the sarcasm.

What? Matthews is one of the best defensive forwards in the league, Pasta cherry picks

 

[Jojalu]

The point was that ever since the Tavares signing we've been overpaying our top players compared to the rest of the league.


You have to remember to include the or people may miss the sarcasm.

It did indeed fly over my head. Sorry. Lol

 

[Gallagbi]

Well because there's a freeze on trades after the deadline in February so unless you wanted to trade your two biggest stars before then, you lost your leverage that day except for a tiny window of opportunity.

There isnt a freeze, we saw Provorov and Durzi traded between Tre's hire and the draft for example

 

[thewave]

That's some funny shit right there.

WN is a more complete hockey player.

Elite level
Speed
Shot and Goal scoring
Playmaking

Pretty good defensively. Not so good physically.

Marner has better playmaking ability. Top notch in that dept when he is on his game. Defensively is sound. He lacks speed, physicality, shot isn't great but his goal scoring has been fine.

It depends what you want to pay 10m+ for. I would rather WN for the speed and shot. He will likely have a longer career at high level with that speed and shot.

 

[Martin Skoula]

WN is a more complete hockey player.

Elite level
Speed
Shot and Goal scoring
Playmaking

Pretty good defensively. Not so good physically.

Marner has better playmaking ability. Top notch in that dept when he is on his game. Defensively is sound. He lacks speed, physicality, shot isn't great but his goal scoring has been fine.

It depends what you want to pay 10m+ for. I would rather WN for the speed and shot. He will likely have a longer career at high level with that speed and shot.

Marner is better at making something out of nothing but his playmaking is also much higher risk, creates more turnovers, and he doesn’t have the speed to fix his mis-gambles when they happen. Nylander is a lot more reliable making simple correct passes to linemates in dangerous areas. We don’t need someone who can flip a backhand saucer through 3 defenders when a simple give and go with speed will do the job.

When your top 6 is stacked with guys who can put the puck in the net, the most important thing is keeping them in the offensive zone instead of constantly breaking their rhythm needing to back check and fight for pucks in their own end.

 

[Arzak]

Matthews' defensive game is also MILES ahead of Pasta's

That's just wishful thinking on your part.

Pasta doesn't have the benefit of another $11M player inflating his stats and never played 25-30min like our top players

Marner makes everyone around him better, so if you remove Marner from Matthews , or consider Pasta is playing without super elite Marner..


edit: If Marner improved Pasta by measly 30%, he could score 82+ !

 

[arso40]

That's just wishful thinking on your part.

Pasta doesn't have the benefit of another $11M player inflating his stats and never played 25-30min like our top players

Marner makes everyone around him better, so if you remove Marner from Matthews , or consider Pasta is playing without super elite Marner..


edit: If Marner improved Pasta by measly 30%, he could score 82+ !

Marner definitely does but how much of a drop o off would it be without him though ?

 

[thewave]

That's just wishful thinking on your part.

Pasta doesn't have the benefit of another $11M player inflating his stats and never played 25-30min like our top players

Marner makes everyone around him better, so if you remove Marner from Matthews , or consider Pasta is playing without super elite Marner..


edit: If Marner improved Pasta by measly 30%, he could score 82+ !

Strongly disagree. Marner probably gets Matthews an extra 5 or 6 goals vs say a player like Nylander.

 

[arso40]

Strongly disagree. Marner probably gets Matthews an extra 5 or 6 goals vs say a player like Nylander.

And might also lose him a few assists regardless we should be keeping those 3 until they retire

 

[Jojalu]

That's just wishful thinking on your part.

Pasta doesn't have the benefit of another $11M player inflating his stats and never played 25-30min like our top players

Marner makes everyone around him better, so if you remove Marner from Matthews , or consider Pasta is playing without super elite Marner..


edit: If Marner improved Pasta by measly 30%, he could score 82+ !

He has spent the majority of his career playing on the Perfection line. Bergeron was one of the best defensive C's of all time and Marchand although a pain in the ass is very good.

 

[Arzak]

He has spent the majority of his career playing on the Perfection line. Bergeron was one of the best defensive C's of all time and Marchand although a pain in the ass is very good.

Bergeron and Marchand played together for 10 year before Pasta joined them, they played with a plethora of wingers and not a single one had inflated stats thanks to these two great defensive players.

It's funny how you can group together defensive C and somehow it's beneficial for scoring RW stats. Even better, last year 61 goals 113 points- it was DK and Zacha.

You wanna call them the perfection line too? Poitras his new C is random 2nd rounder , new perfection line?

Bergeron and Marchand, both had their best season way past their statistical prime thanks to Pasta. He was forced to defensive matchups thanks to Bergeron and Marchand, hardly stat inflating for Pasta, for Bergeron and Marchand? Sure.

 

[Jojalu]

Bergeron and Marchand played together for 10 year before Pasta joined them, they played with a plethora of wingers and not a single one had inflated stats thanks to these two great defensive players.

It's funny how you can group together defensive C and somehow it's beneficial for scoring RW stats. Even better, last year 61 goals 113 points- it was DK and Zacha.

You wanna call them the perfection line too? Poitras his new C is random 2nd rounder , new perfection line?

Bergeron and Marchand, both had their best season way past their statistical prime thanks to Pasta. He was forced to defensive matchups thanks to Bergeron and Marchand, hardly stat inflating for Pasta, for Bergeron and Marchand? Sure.

I would have a hard time coming up with a reason to choose either Marner or Nylander over him. Matthews I think would be easier to make a case for.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Bergeron and Marchand played together for 10 year before Pasta joined them, they played with a plethora of wingers and not a single one had inflated stats thanks to these two great defensive players.

It's funny how you can group together defensive C and somehow it's beneficial for scoring RW stats. Even better, last year 61 goals 113 points- it was DK and Zacha.

You wanna call them the perfection line too? Poitras his new C is random 2nd rounder , new perfection line?

Bergeron and Marchand, both had their best season way past their statistical prime thanks to Pasta. He was forced to defensive matchups thanks to Bergeron and Marchand, hardly stat inflating for Pasta, for Bergeron and Marchand? Sure.

Bergeron has been putting up ~40 points on ~60 on-ice goals at ES like clockwork for literally a decade with or without Pasta, the only difference once Pasta joined their line is that they went from 40% offensive zone starts to 60%. Pasta didn’t get defensive usage with them, they got more offensive usage once Pasta joined the line.

 

[notDatsyuk]

FYI, I was very critical of the team when they didn't use their leverage over Matthews, and Marner when they had it. Feel free to look it up. But now they have a massive problem between two guys that will be looking for a big raise (Marner and Nylander) and they only have leverage over one guy now. You're making assumptions that are incorrect about what I'm saying.

You asked "When was the last time they had a guy they have control over that's this good?" I said Matty and Mitch, this summer.

I really haven't made any assumptions.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

You asked "When was the last time they had a guy they have control over that's this good?" I said Matty and Mitch, this summer.

I really haven't made any assumptions.

Sorry, what? Both of their no trade clauses kicked in July 1st. Unless you're defining "Summer" as June 21 (the first day of Summer) and July 1 10 days later, what on Earth are you talking about?

 

[kb]

That's just wishful thinking on your part.

Pasta doesn't have the benefit of another $11M player inflating his stats and never played 25-30min like our top players

Marner makes everyone around him better, so if you remove Marner from Matthews , or consider Pasta is playing without super elite Marner..


edit: If Marner improved Pasta by measly 30%, he could score 82+ !

Matthews is every bit as good on D as Marner, sorry to say.

Pasta hangs at the opponents blue line letting others do the dirty work.

 

[Oscar Peterson]

That's just wishful thinking on your part.

Pasta doesn't have the benefit of another $11M player inflating his stats and never played 25-30min like our top players

Marner makes everyone around him better, so if you remove Marner from Matthews , or consider Pasta is playing without super elite Marner..


edit: If Marner improved Pasta by measly 30%, he could score 82+ !

What? Pasta played with one of the best defensive forward in the last twenty years and Marchand another elite two way forward. Matthews always plays very low in the zone supporting the defense and is one of the best at takeaways in the entire league. Pasta plays more like Nylander, very high by the blue line and he likes to blow the zone early to get fast breaks.

Nothing to do with Marner in either case.