Nylander contract discussion - New Poll

[notDatsyuk]

Sure you do. He's not coming for $8 million. You pay to fill a void.

I didn't say $8M, but you don't pay $11M for a 2C, especially 5 years ago.

Is there anyone in the league, even now, who's playing 2C and earning even $9M? Even Nylander, who may well take over 2C this year, is paid under $7M this year, and probably $9.5 next year.

A 'void'? We had Matthews, Kadri, and Nylander available as centres.

 

[kb]

I didn't say $8M, but you don't pay $11M for a 2C, especially 5 years ago.

Is there anyone in the league, even now, who's playing 2C and earning even $9M? Even Nylander, who may well take over 2C this year, is paid under $7M this year, and probably $9.5 next year.

A 'void'? We had Matthews, Kadri, and Nylander available as centres.

That's hindsight with Kadri. He has only had one season where he has outperformed Tavares where Tavares has played a full season, except for his (Tavares') rookie season. Just so happened it was Kadri's UFA year. How often has Nylander played C? Kadri has only 2 seasons over 56 points in his whole career.

So yes, he filled a void.

Tavares has been one of the most consistent scorers over the last decade. There was a reason San Jose offered $13 million.

 

[ZEBROA]

That's hindsight with Kadri. He has only had one season where he has outperformed Tavares where Tavares has played a full season, except for his (Tavares') rookie season. Just so happened it was Kadri's UFA year. How often has Nylander played C? Kadri has only 2 seasons over 56 points in his whole career.

So yes, he filled a void.

Tavares has been one of the most consistent scorers over the last decade. There was a reason San Jose offered $13 million.

Tavares was a stupid signing and even stupider for $13 mill. Not Tavares fault, but it is what it is.

Maby Nylander would have worked better with Kadri, And maby got some better player on D or G for the money left. Not money well spent.

 

[Arzak]

That's hindsight with Kadri. He has only had one season where he has outperformed Tavares where Tavares has played a full season, except for his (Tavares') rookie season. Just so happened it was Kadri's UFA year. How often has Nylander played C? Kadri has only 2 seasons over 56 points in his whole career.

So yes, he filled a void.

Tavares has been one of the most consistent scorers over the last decade. There was a reason San Jose offered $13 million.

Tavares is definitely an improvement, but it's dishonest to say Kadri was void on 2C the man was better then average 2 C . There was no void to fill so to speak..


JT > Kadri at the time of signing, but Kadri was more then good enough as 2C.

11M could fill a void on D . We have those.

 

[MavisGoldberg]

Or they can just fail again. They weren't really close in any year so randomly hoping this season shall be different seems like a bit of a stretch. Unless you think that they were just a few bounces away which is fair enough.

As far as Tavares goes, even with him out of the picture, why does a club with two all-star offensive forwards need another elite offensive player to win it all? It may eventually work because they are a good club but it may just be following a top heavy BPA structure that leaves them married solely to the success of the "tip of the spear".

Everything they do revolves around servicing the salaries of a few star forwards yet the rest of the league seems to really spread their money around after that and win Cups doing it. Agree about ROR, but that may be the coach or just not enough time to adapt to the new club.

Then why do Leafs have more depth than majority of those teams?

Somebody should have explained that to Dubas before he signed an $11M star for his second line (several years ago, when it was a much higher portion of the cap).

Panarin as a UFA got 11.6 1 year later. And having a star 2nd line C seems fine. Majority of cup winners have 2 #1 Cs.

 

[Dragao6]

Tavares was a bad signing only because of his cap hit
I remember being really excitted but not wanting it to be more then 10 max at the time because it would also affect the young guys extensions.
If he truly came to leafs so he could wear his pijamas again management should have gotten a better deal as tavares had to give in more if he wanted to be part of this. That was dubas for u

Nylander 8x8.8 per for 88 please

Contracts are almost coming up though so Leafs situation will be allot better soon as tavares if he stays will have to take a big discount. Mccabe,Brodie will come off soon
I like this years forward core allot for some reason
D getting old
And if Samsonov doesn’t pan out I say give a run at hallebuyck if things dont go well in peg for a run
Good days are coming, always thought until tavares contract runs out we will never be competitive

 

[notDatsyuk]

That's hindsight with Kadri. He has only had one season where he has outperformed Tavares where Tavares has played a full season, except for his (Tavares') rookie season. Just so happened it was Kadri's UFA year. How often has Nylander played C? Kadri has only 2 seasons over 56 points in his whole career.

So yes, he filled a void.

Tavares has been one of the most consistent scorers over the last decade. There was a reason San Jose offered $13 million.

Yes, Tavares at 1C produced more than Kadri at 2C or 3C. I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.

In the 17-18 season, in about 20% less ice time (and 50% less PP time), Kadri had 5 fewer goals and 24 fewer assists. At 5v5, Kadri actually outscored JT per 60.

Nylander was signed as a centre - he hasn't played there because of Tavares.

Kadri was a 50 point 2C at $4.5M.

So no, he didn't fill a void. The void was on D.

And you didn't address any of the other points.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Panarin as a UFA got 11.6 1 year later. And having a star 2nd line C seems fine. Majority of cup winners have 2 #1 Cs.

Panarin has averaged 1.27 ppg with New York. Tavares' best season was 1.12. And again, Panarin was signed to play on the top line, while JT was signed to play on he second line (after one year).

How many teams, champion or otherwise, have a 2C making $11M, even now?

 

[MavisGoldberg]

Panarin has averaged 1.27 ppg with New York. Tavares' best season was 1.12. And again, Panarin was signed to play on the top line, while JT was signed to play on he second line (after one year).

How many teams, champion or otherwise, have a 2C making $11M, even now?

Yes but JT is a center.
And if not for Covid we'd see many more 11 million players. One 11 million player was added today (Dahlin)

 

[notDatsyuk]

Yes but JT is a center.
And if not for Covid we'd see many more 11 million players. One 11 million player was added today (Dahlin)

Panarin being a winger makes it even more impressive that he is so much more productive than JT ever was. Thanks.

Dahlin is a defenceman (which is what we needed instead of JT), so not a 2C.

It's also five years later.

 

[JKG33]

Panarin has averaged 1.27 ppg with New York. Tavares' best season was 1.12. And again, Panarin was signed to play on the top line, while JT was signed to play on he second line (after one year).

How many teams, champion or otherwise, have a 2C making $11M, even now?

And Panarin has been an even bigger ghost in the playoffs than the Leafs overpaid core, on top of also somehow being softer.

I'm not a fan of JT's contract, but I'd take him over Panarin any day

 

[MavisGoldberg]

Panarin being a winger makes it even more impressive that he is so much more productive than JT ever was. Thanks.

Dahlin is a defenceman (which is what we needed instead of JT), so not a 2C.

It's also five years later.

Dahlin was drafted 1st overall. Not like they went out and added him.
And LOL at trying yo say JT has an advantage as a centre over a winger.
Classic case of trying to defend a non Leaf contract.

 

[ULF_55]

Dahlin was drafted 1st overall. Not like they went out and added him.
And LOL at trying yo say JT has an advantage as a centre over a winger.
Classic case of trying to defend a non Leaf contract.

Yes, being the worst team in the league gets you some perquisites ... Crosby, McDavid, Matthews, Dahlin, Power, Hughes, Hischier, Lafreniere who you then have to pay the bucks.

Dahlin was going to be RFA, and is getting double digits (11).

Wonder how much he would have got if UFA?

Landscape may change quite a bit or perhaps return to pre-pandemic in the post-pandemic (lol) era.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Dahlin was drafted 1st overall. Not like they went out and added him.
And LOL at trying yo say JT has an advantage as a centre over a winger.
Classic case of trying to defend a non Leaf contract.

I don't know what being drafted first overall has to do with the fact that I asked about $10M 2C, and your response was a D.

Top 30 scorers in the last 10 years:
18 centres, 7 right wingers, 5 left wingers.

Yes, I think centres should put up more points.

And I'm not trying to defend a non-Leaf contract, I'm showing that a Leaf contract was bad. You're the one trying to show (without success) that a non-Leaf contract is worse. Even if you did, it doesn't mean that Dubas didn't make a mistake, it only means that someone else did too.

 

[Menzinger]

Vegas got Marchessault at 26 coming off a 30 goal season. He had 21 points that first playoff. You don't need a $10m star on your second line. Just aim a little higher than Bunting or Jarnkrok.

Vegas got him via the expansion draft, so it's unlikely that's applicable to the Leafs situation. The problem with the trade Nylander idea is there's few direct ways it turns into making the team better tomorrow. What some people seem to want for him - a top young top 2/3 D man isn't going to be available.

This team isn't going to spend a few seasons retooling, they're going to keep focusing on being as competitive as possible every year.

 

[A1LeafNation]

He ain't getting more than Scheifele...and Scheifele has to live in Winnipeg for 8 months

 

[kb]

He ain't getting more than Scheifele...and Scheifele has to live in Winnipeg for 8 months

He is getting more than Scheifele......that is a retirement contract that starts at 31, unlike Nylander.

 

[Menzinger]

He is getting more than Scheifele......that is a retirement contract that starts at 31, unlike Nylander.

Yep. Three year age gap is fairly significant. Those 35-37 years will very likely be less productive than the 31-34 year old seasons for either guy.

 

[Evilhomer]

He ain't getting more than Scheifele...and Scheifele has to live in Winnipeg for 8 months

He is getting a lot more than Scheifele. Probably about $1 million more per season. To be honest, even at that amount it would be a discount for Nylander. There is a pretty big quality gap between Scheifele and Nylander. That is going to be an awful contract for Winnipeg (surpassed only by the positively atrocious Helly contract).

 

[Arzak]

I don't know what being drafted first overall has to do with the fact that I asked about $10M 2C, and your response was a D.

Top 30 scorers in the last 10 years:
18 centres, 7 right wingers, 5 left wingers.

Yes, I think centres should put up more points.

And I'm not trying to defend a non-Leaf contract, I'm showing that a Leaf contract was bad. You're the one trying to show (without success) that a non-Leaf contract is worse. Even if you did, it doesn't mean that Dubas didn't make a mistake, it only means that someone else did too.

They tend to pick up more assists, but at the same time #68 Jagr won 5 Art Ross Trophies in a row right winging it.

 

[thewave]

Vegas got him via the expansion draft, so it's unlikely that's applicable to the Leafs situation. The problem with the trade Nylander idea is there's few direct ways it turns into making the team better tomorrow. What some people seem to want for him - a top young top 2/3 D man isn't going to be available.

This team isn't going to spend a few seasons retooling, they're going to keep focusing on being as competitive as possible every year.

They missed the window of opportunity to change the dynamic of the team. When you cling to a leader and a coach that have both proven failed winning philosophies for as long as they did, this happens. There is no going back anymore, ships sailed and we are relying on the new GM to perform a miracle.

GM BT's Options (You'll notice excessive use of hope)

1. Hope one of our drafted D becomes a League leading 1D in short order.
2. Hope that a league leading D becomes available due to organizational issues/FA and we get them.
3. Hope that Woll is the real deal in short order. Top 5 in the league tender, playoff performer
4. Hope we get some team friendly deals to help with the cap situation
5. Hope that the new team Roster / Dynamic promotes MM JT WN and AM to better playoff players.

Obviously he has to navigate the cap but losing a WN while the rusting JT with that contract is laughing at us is unacceptable. If we lose WN because of JT we deserve what we get at the MLSE level. Fans bite another bullet and keep waiting to win.

 

[MavisGoldberg]

They missed the window of opportunity to change the dynamic of the team. When you cling to a leader and a coach that have both proven failed winning philosophies for as long as they did, this happens. There is no going back anymore, ships sailed and we are relying on the new GM to perform a miracle.

GM BT's Options (You'll notice excessive use of hope)

1. Hope one of our drafted D becomes a League leading 1D in short order.
2. Hope that a league leading D becomes available due to organizational issues/FA and we get them.
3. Hope that Woll is the real deal in short order. Top 5 in the league tender, playoff performer
4. Hope we get some team friendly deals to help with the cap situation
5. Hope that the new team Roster / Dynamic promotes MM JT WN and AM to better playoff players.

Obviously he has to navigate the cap but losing a WN while the rusting JT with that contract is laughing at us is unacceptable. If we lose WN because of JT we deserve what we get at the MLSE level. Fans bite another bullet and keep waiting to win.

Why would Leafs lose WN due to JT when they clearly have the cap to sign him? The cap issues are better than a majority of teams by next summer.And not sure this team needs a "Miracle". They are very good.

 

[ACC1224]

Find the poll results surprising.
Is it people are down on the team or Nylander?

 

[notDatsyuk]

They tend to pick up more assists, but at the same time #68 Jagr won 5 Art Ross Trophies in a row right winging it.

Centres tend to put up more goals and assists, and pointing out an exception from 20-25 years ago doesn't disprove that. How about 7 of the last 8 Art Ross Trophy winners have been centres?

 

[notDatsyuk]

Find the poll results surprising.
Is it people are down on the team or Nylander?

I can't see the results without voting, but the way it's set up are really negative. It is assuming he won't sign, so the basic tenet is "the worst possible thing is happening, which way do you think is least terrible?"

If an option was "sign him for $9.5 for 6-8 years" we would probably see a lot different results.