NY Rangers GM Glen Sather's 'personnel' doesn't fit with Alain Vigneault's style

[slipknottin]

I guess the pedestrian defense has nothing to do with Lundqvist's performance.

Doesnt seem to be a problem for Talbot.

 

[aufheben]

Teams always play better in front of their backups. Talbot has been very solid when he's needed too.

This franchise, like the fans, have had Hank bending over backwards to bail it/us out on a daily basis for nearing a decade.

 

[Crease]

Poor team defense doesn't explain away the fact that Lundqvist is simply getting beat on a lot of shots he normally stops. Lundqvist bears some responsibility for his down year.

 

[Crease]

And by the way, I'm grateful we have a goalie of such caliber that his down year makes him merely average. But it's completely appropriate to hold players accountable for not playing the way they're capable of. It's why we don't have threads on why Stralman sucks because he's not top 10 in the league in defensive scoring.

 

[Cake or Death]

Is it possible that Tortorella and Vigneault are perfectly fine coaches and that everything is Sather's fault? Since 2001, has any Rangers team failed to win the Cup because of poor coaching?

There are a few flip sides to that which seem to get ignored. One, Torts' tenure here was done. You'd have to have missed the whole of last season to think otherwise. Two, only two east teams have made the playoffs 7 of the last 8 seasons: the Rangers and Penguins. Wouldn't that be Sather's fault, too?

Third, we are working in a different dynamic than the likes of some of the Cup caliber teams - Chicago, LA, and the Pens, for instance - which were all built via 'tanks' and a plethora of top 10 picks. The Hawks have an excellent team, but it helps to pick 3, 7, 3, 1 overall in successive drafts to snag Toews and Kane. LA picked 11, 11, 4, 2 , 5 overall in 5 successive seasons. Pitt picked 5, 1, 2, 1, 2 in successive seasons. Not to mention the Pens were handed Crosby by a lottery ball or they'd be a bubble team right now. I watched Malkin a lot in Russia. Super skill set but did not exhibit the mental makeup to carry a team on his own.

Sather's tenure pre-cap was beyond horrific. But since then he has done an above average job at fielding relatively competitive teams. While he hasn't iced Cup caliber teams, we haven't had the high picks of some of the other franchises and we do not operate in a bubble - there are still 29 other teams vying for the same goal, all working against preventing the other 29 teams from doing so.

I personally can't stand Sather. But I am trying to look at this realistically and judge results, without my Sather-hating goggles overly affecting my opinion. There are, for instance, far less successful GMs who have done much worse in spite of them getting a barrage of excellent draft picks to build with.

 

[True Blue]

There are a few flip sides to that which seem to get ignored. One, Torts' tenure here was done. You'd have to have missed the whole of last season to think otherwise.

One of final last 8 teams. Played their tukhuses off to make the playoffs and then rallied to get past the first round. I would take such a year over mosto over the last 25 years.

Sather's tenure pre-cap was beyond horrific. But since then he has done an above average job at fielding relatively competitive teams.

A team with no identity and a rudderless ship is above average?

There are, for instance, far less successful GMs who have done much worse in spite of them getting a barrage of excellent draft picks to build with.

Since he has taken over the Rangers, which GM has had a worse track record?

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Doesnt seem to be a problem for Talbot.

If it isnt plainly obvious that the team was playing better under Talbot, then I dont know what to tell you.

Im not absolving Lundqvist, he needs to be better, but its not an easy and immediate adjustment going from a style thats all about protecting the net to a style thats more about turning up the ice for offense -- which, by the way, isn't generating any additional offense and being performed haphazardly in the defensive zone.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

There are a few flip sides to that which seem to get ignored. One, Torts' tenure here was done. You'd have to have missed the whole of last season to think otherwise. Two, only two east teams have made the playoffs 7 of the last 8 seasons: the Rangers and Penguins. Wouldn't that be Sather's fault, too?

Third, we are working in a different dynamic than the likes of some of the Cup caliber teams - Chicago, LA, and the Pens, for instance - which were all built via 'tanks' and a plethora of top 10 picks. The Hawks have an excellent team, but it helps to pick 3, 7, 3, 1 overall in successive drafts to snag Toews and Kane. LA picked 11, 11, 4, 2 , 5 overall in 5 successive seasons. Pitt picked 5, 1, 2, 1, 2 in successive seasons. Not to mention the Pens were handed Crosby by a lottery ball or they'd be a bubble team right now. I watched Malkin a lot in Russia. Super skill set but did not exhibit the mental makeup to carry a team on his own.

Sather's tenure pre-cap was beyond horrific. But since then he has done an above average job at fielding relatively competitive teams. While he hasn't iced Cup caliber teams, we haven't had the high picks of some of the other franchises and we do not operate in a bubble - there are still 29 other teams vying for the same goal, all working against preventing the other 29 teams from doing so.

I personally can't stand Sather. But I am trying to look at this realistically and judge results, without my Sather-hating goggles overly affecting my opinion. There are, for instance, far less successful GMs who have done much worse in spite of them getting a barrage of excellent draft picks to build with.

You're getting a pretty nice view into what a post-lockout Sather-built team looks like when Henrik Lundqvist isn't playing like a God.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

Personally saying that "other GMs have done much worse" is not a convincing argument. With the Rangeds resources (read $) to spend on scouting and player development, as well as their attractiveness for UFAs, being average is not my expectation.

Two quick examples of many. Dallas aggressively pursues Seguin. Now they have a 22 y/o first line center to go along with a well constructed team. Modano, a few down years, then Seguin. Must be nice.

Who was the last big player the Ducks brought in? Scott Niedermayer? Yet they have constructed a skilled, big, skating, physical team that competes year in year out.

This isn't even touching Boston, LA, Chicago's of the league. Sather's reign has been a disgrace. The Rangers have not been able to identify the right players or do what it takes to land them. Treading water.

 

[True Blue]

This isn't even touching Boston, LA, Chicago's of the league. Sather's reign has been a disgrace. The Rangers have not been able to identify the right players or do what it takes to land them. Treading water.

As Edge pointed out last week, let's not forget forever chasing your own tail by trying to replace what you let get away. And then letting it get away again. And then spend time and money trying to replace it.

The improper use of money has been horrific.

 

[NYROrtsFan]

Asking for Sather to be fired is like asking for Dolan to sell the team. Aint happening. Dolan is very close to Sather and it just won't be happening.

Better to just hope that Sather starts improving the team again.


And I think it's also worth while for a bunch of people to admit they were wrong about Torts being the problem. He got the absolute most out of this team.

 

[Crease]

Asking for Sather to be fired is like asking for Dolan to sell the team. Aint happening. Dolan is very close to Sather and it just won't be happening.

Better to just hope that Sather starts improving the team again.


And I think it's also worth while for a bunch of people to admit they were wrong about Torts being the problem. He got the absolute most out of this team.

In 2012 yes. After 2013, he was fired precisely for this reason. Do you remember how listless and uninspiring they looked last year?

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

In 2012 yes. After 2013, he was fired precisely for this reason. Do you remember how listless and uninspiring they looked last year?

Its almost as if the team took on the persona of their shiny new toy, Rick Nash.

They quit on Tortorella, and they seemed to have quit on Vigneault without giving him much of a chance.

I think its a combination of importing perennial losers and just being tired of the sacrifices they made in 2012. Either way, I don't think any coach is capable of rescuing this **** sandwich.

 

[True Blue]

They quit on Tortorella, and they seemed to have quit on Vigneault without giving him much of a chance.

Again, I could not disagree more. The team did not quit on Tortoreall. They worked their butts of just to make the playoffs. They then worked their butts of to make the second round.

I would take the effort of last year's team over this year's any day of the week. This teams is reminiscent of the Ron Low teams, something last year's team could never be confused with.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Again, I could not disagree more. The team did not quit on Tortoreall. They worked their butts of just to make the playoffs. They then worked their butts of to make the second round.

I would take the effort of last year's team over this year's any day of the week. This teams is reminiscent of the Ron Low teams, something last year's team could never be confused with.

I think BRB is being facetious about quitting on Torts.

 

[True Blue]

I think BRB is being facetious about quitting on Torts.

If so, my mistake.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Again, I could not disagree more. The team did not quit on Tortoreall. They worked their butts of just to make the playoffs. They then worked their butts of to make the second round.

I would take the effort of last year's team over this year's any day of the week. This teams is reminiscent of the Ron Low teams, something last year's team could never be confused with.

It was tounge in cheek. I do think the 2012-2013 effort was not on par with the previous year, but thats for a whole host of reasons -- the lockout and roster turnover being the top 2.

Its poetic justice for all the folks blabbering about how the team quit last year and how Torts' time was done. They insisted it couldn't get worse. It has.

Oh, and to rub salt in the wound, Vancouver is riding a 7 game winning streak and just crushed Boston.

 

[slipknottin]

It was tounge in cheek. I do think the 2012-2013 effort was not on par with the previous year, but thats for a whole host of reasons -- the lockout and roster turnover being the top 2.

Its poetic justice for all the folks blabbering about how the team quit last year and how Torts' time was done. They insisted it couldn't get worse. It has.

This entire thing could be summed up with "regression to the mean".

The forum loves taking short term things like Brassards playoff performance and extending that for the following season. That's just not how it works.

Guys in down years are more likely to bounce back up, guys in up years are more likely to drop down.

Occasionally young players keep improving, old players decline.

 

[True Blue]

Its poetic justice for all the folks blabbering about how the team quit last year and how Torts' time was done. They insisted it couldn't get worse. It has.

Oh, and to rub salt in the wound, Vancouver is riding a 7 game winning streak and just crushed Boston.

Sorry, sometimes print makes the sarcasm hard to see.

But WOW are you right on the other points. Letting Torts go was one of the worst mistakes that this organization has made since the 90's began. He has a track record of success. And has been the most successful Rangers coach (discounting Keenan's one year) since Francis.