NY Rangers GM Glen Sather's 'personnel' doesn't fit with Alain Vigneault's style

[Crease]

Is it possible that Tortorella and Vigneault are perfectly fine coaches and that everything is Sather's fault? Since 2001, has any Rangers team failed to win the Cup because of poor coaching?

 

[aufheben]

Is it possible that Tortorella and Vigneault are perfectly fine coaches and that everything is Sather's fault? Since 2001, has any Rangers team failed to win the Cup because of poor coaching?

Yes but I can understand people not accepting the reality that not only is it Sather, but that he has the job for life. It's a harsh truth, and I've seen people reach for all sorts of other reasons.

It's the city, it's AV, it's Torts, it's Hank, it's Boyle, it's this and that. I mean, he's the guy that builds the teams, picks the coaches...everything is on him by default.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

My take on a few things being brought up in this thread:

Jeff Gorton has shown that he can lay the ground work for a cup contender. His moves in Boston as well as his drafting set up that franchise for the success that it has had in recent years. The Rask trade. The Chara signing. Highly influential in the Thornton trade. Signed Savard who was phenomenal for them until Cooke ended his career. The '06 draft that resulted in Kessel, Lucic and Marchand. So when people around here get excited at the thought of him running the show, it's not based on a bunch of crap. Sather is the shot caller here. Gorton has been highly influential in targeting younger players to bring in. Moore. McDonagh. Super high on Kreider.

Read the stuff about Richards not being bought out. There were people who disagreed, but Sather had the final say. It's not like everyone in the front office is blindly following Sather. He's been running this team for well over a decade. He's accomplished absolutely nothing. He deserves every bit of criticism he's getting.

Second, people need to stop acting as if AV knew everything there was to know about this team when he took the job. Watch the interviews he gave after he was hired. They're littered with comments about him trying to learn about what he has at his disposal. Sather was the one who told him he thought this team had more offense to give. Now people are calling him out because he realizes that's not the case? I want to hug the guy for finally saying what has been painfully obvious for a while now.

I worry about what working under Sather might do to someone promising like Gorton. Sather's entire tenure here has been driven by shortcuts. That sort of stuff permeates a workplace.

Totally agree about AV. You can watch all the tape in the world, but youre not going to get a real handle on a team until you are on that bench. As for his comments, its obvious Tortorella thought the same thing, but he just went ahead and altered the style of play. He rarely said anything about it. AV better watch his step though, Sather and MSG in general have a history of not taking kindly to criticism.

 

[beastly115]

Is it possible that Tortorella and Vigneault are perfectly fine coaches and that everything is Sather's fault? Since 2001, has any Rangers team failed to win the Cup because of poor coaching?

IMO, yes. We've been through so many coaches in the past 12 years, the only common denominator is Sather (and Dolan, really). Granted, you could also argue that there was a different organization pre and post 2004-05 lockout mentalities. We all know his philosophy pre-cap. Post cap he seemed to get his head out of his ass but he still seems to have that "throw as much **** at the wall and hope something works" mentality. He's been through so many coaches and players at this point, he needs to take a long look in the mirror and realize that maybe they're not the problem.

 

[beastly115]

I worry about what working under Sather might do to someone promising like Gorton. Sather's entire tenure here has been driven by shortcuts. That sort of stuff permeates a workplace.

Totally agree about AV. You can watch all the tape in the world, but youre not going to get a real handle on a team until you are on that bench. As for his comments, its obvious Tortorella thought the same thing, but he just went ahead and altered the style of play. He rarely said anything about it. AV better watch his step though, Sather and MSG in general have a history of not taking kindly to criticism.

I doubt that's much of a concern for a professional like Gorton. He probably follows orders at work then goes home and tells his wife about what a moron his boss is.

My point is that one can follow orders but not agree with them.

 

[Riverdale]

Yes but I can understand people not accepting the reality that not only is it Sather, but that he has the job for life. It's a harsh truth, and I've seen people reach for all sorts of other reasons.

It's the city, it's AV, it's Torts, it's Hank, it's Boyle, it's this and that. I mean, he's the guy that builds the teams, picks the coaches...everything is on him by default.

You forgot "It's the fans".

I mean we wanted more offense right? Now its out fault the team sucks!

 

[aufheben]

It's the ice!

 

[Pizza]

I don't agree Pizza. Silver I can get behind, even tho I think the point is bit hyperbolic. But I'm not sure I agree with what you're saying here. If I'm getting lost in semantics here, by all means call me out on it. But it's not like people cried for jam, got it, and then were like meh...let's try a scoring build. I'd still live a lunch pale, blue collar team. But I can also identify that the team needs more scoring too. I know I'm not alone here on that. If you can accuse anyone of flip flopping on this level...accuse your gm. Every year he seems to flip the script on this team. Just my two cents tho, Pizza.

I think we're just gonna disagree on this one Shadow. Here's the thing though, as fans that's our prerogative. I cut Sather no slack here at all. We may flip/flop as fans, but as GM he's supposed to set a course he believes in and stay with it.

That's one of the main problems in this equation. We're always cycling through the same phases. The Rangers can't stick with anything.

Why?

I'm not sure there are any good answers. But those damn sky boxes gotta stay filled. The reno's gotta be paid down. I'd love to see em keep a hand full of guys, get rid of the rest and start the hell over.

So frustrating cause it ain't never happening.

One cup in 74 years. Sadly, it's just the way it is and will stay

 

[RangerBoy]

In 2012. Everyone here seemed to say what a brilliant GM Gorton was going to be when Sather stepped down, and now that the team is playing like ****, the blame goes back on Sather. Of course Sather makes the final decision, but Gorton is a huge part of the front office too. He shouldn't be immune from blame.

Gorton will be a good GM. He has already proven to be a good GM. You can blame him if you want. Sather is the boss. If Gorton had free reign to make the decisions,the team would be in better shape.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Who cares about Gaborik and Richards? I'm talking about the Nash trade. I asked you if they played better or worse since the trade

And what's the point of asking that question? Seems pretty obvious that you are asking this question which lends to the implication that the trade was THE main cause of the team being worse. It stands to reason that my question in turn implies that losing two superstar players simultaneously had more of an impact.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

There is a very clear delineation between the Rangers results before and after the Nash trade it's certainly a fair point.

There is LITERALLY just as much of a "very clear delineation" between the Rangers results before and after when we let go of FEDOTENKO. But nooooooobody mentions that and why is that? Because some moves did contribute to the team's decline and some moves did not. The Nash trade did NOT contribute even half as much as some people seem to think.

There is LITERALLY just as much of a "very clear delineation" between the Rangers results before and after Gabs and Richards simultaneously declined last season. Now THAT made THE largest contribution to the team's decline AINEC.

What do you think happens last year and this year with Dubs and AA?

Dubs could NOT score his last two years here. AA I loved but he too could only score for 10 game spurts and then disappear for half the season. So what were they going to do to fix a team with scoring woes?

What drives me nuts is how you people ignore these things to push forward an idea that fits into your narrative that the Nash trade is the culprit. It's lazy, it's ignorant of the facts and it is ignorant of what all of these players involved in the trade had actually done up until that point and what they have done since.

This team is an offensive garbage can.

Offense.

80 pt gaborik. 90 pt Richards. Neither one shows up last year, one is now gone and the other (while better this season) is still a shell of his former self.

How in the blue hell have you people actually convinced yourself that the nash trade was more important than this?

Combine losing those two with the following FA and trade decisions:
Asham, Power, Pyatt, Poo, Clowe, Falk.

The Gabs trade seems to have netted zilch thus far. But those decisions were all 100% bad decisions which hurt the team. The only reasoN i ignore the gabs trade was because he was useless out there too so the trade didn't exactly hurt the team. Hell add trading Korpikoski he's a good player, helluvalot better than Pyatt and Poo combined.

You're seeing one nash tree and missing the forest of moves behind it that tanked this team

 

[NYRSchrute217]

My take on a few things being brought up in this thread:

Jeff Gorton has shown that he can lay the ground work for a cup contender. His moves in Boston as well as his drafting set up that franchise for the success that it has had in recent years. The Rask trade. The Chara signing. Highly influential in the Thornton trade. Signed Savard who was phenomenal for them until Cooke ended his career. The '06 draft that resulted in Kessel, Lucic and Marchand. So when people around here get excited at the thought of him running the show, it's not based on a bunch of crap. Sather is the shot caller here. Gorton has been highly influential in targeting younger players to bring in. Moore. McDonagh. Super high on Kreider.

I'm not disagreeing with that. In fact, I think Gorton will be a very good GM for us. I just think it's curious that the as praise shifts to blame, it went from Gorton to Sather, which is very hypocritical of everyone here.

 

[NYRSchrute217]

Gorton will be a good GM. He has already proven to be a good GM. You can blame him if you want. Sather is the boss. If Gorton had free reign to make the decisions,the team would be in better shape.

I agree with you. My post was not so much about Gorton vs Sather, but rather the hypocritical nature of this board when things take a turn for the worse.

 

[RangersHank*]

And what's the point of asking that question? Seems pretty obvious that you are asking this question which lends to the implication that the trade was THE main cause of the team being worse. It stands to reason that my question in turn implies that losing two superstar players simultaneously had more of an impact.

But we lost guys that supported those two superstar players. They were bad but we had nobody to support them, no guys to grind it out.

 

[RangersHank*]

Gorton will be a good GM. He has already proven to be a good GM. You can blame him if you want. Sather is the boss. If Gorton had free reign to make the decisions,the team would be in better shape.

Thats an opinion, not a fact. "ifs" cant prove a point. Sather sucks but nobody knows how anybody else will be here as GM.

 

[Raspewtin]

Thats an opinion, not a fact. "ifs" cant prove a point. Sather sucks but nobody knows how anybody else will be here as GM.

I don't know, I trust the guy who in one offseason managed to acquire Tuukka Rask, Zdeno Chara, Marchand, Lucic, and Kessel.

 

[ArPanet]

Rangers went 20-20 in final 40 games of 2012. Rangers were more than a .500 team last year so I don't see how adding Nash could be "a problem".

Rangers need to build some confidence which should start with leadership from your best players. So if Lundqvist could start to look like he has a clue how to turn his game towards something everybody has gotten used to and expects after he signed for more years, that would be great.

 

[RangersHank*]

I don't know, I trust the guy who in one offseason managed to acquire Tuukka Rask, Zdeno Chara, Marchand, Lucic, and Kessel.

Ok but we need to build our own identity and our own team. Just because he did good with Boston doesnt mean it will automatically happen here. If you ask me i want a new GM overall. Keep Gorton as assistant. Not too sure how many GMs are out there tho. If past success means everything, Sather would be the best.

 

[RangersHank*]

Rangers went 20-20 in final 40 games of 2012. Rangers were more than a .500 team last year so I don't see how adding Nash could be "a problem".

Rangers need to build some confidence which should start with leadership from your best players. So if Lundqvist could start to look like he has a clue how to turn his game towards something everybody has gotten used to and expects after he signed for more years, that would be great.

Lundqvist is at fault?

Our "best players" are not that good. And our leadership doesnt exist

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

But we lost guys that supported those two superstar players. They were bad but we had nobody to support them, no guys to grind it out.

How did they support them? We had hag, Cally, Stepan, Richards, gabs, nash. That's good enough to assemble a top 6 that can support itself. Richards and Gabs sucked all on their own especially richards

 

[KingWantsCup]

Deleted

 

[RangersHank*]

How did they support them? We had hag, Cally, Stepan, Richards, gabs, nash. That's good enough to assemble a top 6 that can support itself. Richards and Gabs sucked all on their own especially richards

So now we have that same top 6 minus Gaborik and we still suck, whats the problem now?

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Rangers went 20-20 in final 40 games of 2012. Rangers were more than a .500 team last year so I don't see how adding Nash could be "a problem".

Rangers need to build some confidence which should start with leadership from your best players. So if Lundqvist could start to look like he has a clue how to turn his game towards something everybody has gotten used to and expects after he signed for more years, that would be great.

I guess the pedestrian defense has nothing to do with Lundqvist's performance.

 

[eco's bones]

Ok but we need to build our own identity and our own team. Just because he did good with Boston doesnt mean it will automatically happen here. If you ask me i want a new GM overall. Keep Gorton as assistant. Not too sure how many GMs are out there tho. If past success means everything, Sather would be the best.

There are no automatics when hiring any GM or coach. Gorton certainly deserves a shot if and when Sather departs. We might lose him in the meantime if it gets to the point that he's tired of playing second fiddle--especially if the team is going down the tubes.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

So now we have that same top 6 minus Gaborik and we still suck, whats the problem now?

Really? Wow...Is callahan in the lineup? is gabs in the lineup? You're right same top 6... You're minimizing the loss of gabs and it's simply ridiculous

Callahan was in the lineup and wasn't anywhere near the same player. lemme guess when nash came here he forgot how to play right?

Even if the nash trade hadn't happened what could they have done with gabs and Richards both falling off the planet? People want to play capt hindsight. Knowing what I know now do I make the Nash trade? ******* no! I give them Gabs that off season! But assuming gabs and Richards were going to at LEAST be respectable then yea I have no problem with what we traded. You are delusional if you think Dubs and Anisimov would make up for gabs and BR falling off the earth