NY Rangers GM Glen Sather's 'personnel' doesn't fit with Alain Vigneault's style

[NYRSchrute217]

Gorton got credit for the 2012 team. When?

In 2012. Everyone here seemed to say what a brilliant GM Gorton was going to be when Sather stepped down, and now that the team is playing like ****, the blame goes back on Sather. Of course Sather makes the final decision, but Gorton is a huge part of the front office too. He shouldn't be immune from blame.

 

[wolfgaze]

I can't say exactly what it is about him, but I don't have any faith in AV... There is nothing about him that gives off the impression that he's the right type of coach or personality for this team...

I've only saw a few glimpses of the post-game conferences but the guy seems like he lacks confidence & conviction when he speaks.... Almost like hes uncertain of himself when he communicates...

I think the Rangers need a more assertive presence behind the bench but not a hot-head....

 

[eco's bones]

All we have to do is go back to the coach selection process. Sather said he was going to look at every option. He interviewed two guys--AV and Mark Messier. He didn't do his homework. He didn't do his job. He had a whole summer to find a guy who could fit for the kind of personnel he had. Instead it came down to a guy who ran a more offensive styled system who had big number producers or a guy with no coaching experience anywhere.

 

[RangersHank*]

All we have to do is go back to the coach selection process. Sather said he was going to look at every option. He interviewed two guys--AV and Mark Messier. He didn't do his homework. He didn't do his job. He had a whole summer to find a guy who could fit for the kind of personnel he had. Instead it came down to a guy who ran a more offensive styled system who had big number producers or a guy with no coaching experience anywhere.

Maybe Sather wants to change styles? If we had more wins, people wouldnt cry about the AV signing. And if he signed Messier, people would complain about him hiring a guy with no experience

 

[stan the caddy]

Here's the logic from our incredible GM:

I'll fire Tortorella for losing to Boston but I won't fire AV for criticizing my roster and admitting he can't win with it. Instead I'll get a half assed rebuild started.

Might be back to square one, boys.

 

[TheTakedown]

I think AV is starting to feel like he's been set up to fail and sees the writing on the wall. Personally im glad he said what he said. Sather and Dolan need a dose of reality, even If its only for a few days

THIS... Strong feeling that sather blew a ton of smoke up his ass. He was expecting Apples and he got oranges...

you have to feel bad for the position he has been put in, and honestly I'm glad he went to the media about it. Seriously, that's kind of what NY sports fans wants; "Let me know whats up, and now!"

Beyond that AV also knows that he most likely has a ton of leverage to say that because Sather would look like an absolute fool to fire him less than half a season into his coaching tenure with the rangers. Sadly, it's like AV has to play against sather, instead of for... but right now I don't think it'll get him fired. It MIGHT, just MIGHT get Sather to start making the right moves

 

[Pizza]

This HF logic has been amazing to me. Sather makes a move the board likes: "Oh man, you can really see Gorton's hand in these moves. He's learning"

Team sucks: "Fire Sather! This is all Sather's fault!"

The narrative on the board works in the favor of how the fans want it to work. Flip-flopping more than a political candidate.

Totally agree with this and said as much yesterday.

Fans scream for a tougher, younger core for a better team identity.

FLIP.

Not enough scoring. Too many 3rd liners. Too much grind and jam. Boring.

FLIP.

Too soft. No team identity.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

I disagree. AV choose to coach the Rangers and knew what kind of roster he was getting into. He probably thought he could just let Lundqvist do everything, sit back and relax. I don't feel sorry for him at all. Maybe if he had spent a little more time with the team in preseason he could have advocated for some of his style players then, but him making comments like this in December is not only highly unprofessional, but delusional at best. I think its ironic Torts was berated for only playing one style of hockey, but AV clearly only knows one style of hockey as well. Torts knew how to win with this roster, AV is just finding out, in December he doesn't have the horses? Anyone could have noticed that that has watched the team.

AV should have walked into the job Day 1 and said to Sather these guys won't fit and give him some ideas of who to target. AV has been horribly prepared since he got here, and this is just another example. During the interview process, this MUST have come up. So either AV was blowing smoke up Sather's butt, or Sather put his foot down saying that this was the team going forward. AV did not have to take the job.

They absolutely bet the house on Nash, I don't think this is debatable because it would up costing the team Dubinsky, Anisimiov and Gaborik; integral pieces on a team that should have won the President's Cup. It took way too long to realize this mistake and it culminated in the Gaborik trade. Last season, the Rangers should have fired Torts midseason and found a coach to win with Gaborik and Nash (not that you can win the cup building around wingers), or they should have given Torts a full season with Brassard, Dorsett and Moore. I have been saying this since October.

Now you have a team with no identity headed by a coach who is the biggest misfit for the team he is coaching since Trottier, who is not cognitive of the team's culture whatsoever. Sather is very out of touch with things and this is not helping but he has seen this roster win, and he would be right to stand up for it. However this does not mean he doesn't need to be proactive.

That whole first paragraph ignores that Torts did the same thing. He was very public and open about the teams lack of skill. Who said anything about feeling sorry for him? I feel like you didn't really get what i was saying. You weren't clear about what you disagree with either.

I said that Av could be a problem, I suspect he most certainly is one. Based on your post I don't get why you would disagree with that. makes me think you didn't really read everything or something

The 3rd paragraph seems to overvalue what Dubs and AA were giving us, undervalue what Nash gave us and for some reason seems to be framed from a viewpoint that would have made sense only in some hypothetical sense Since Gabs actually played with Nash and we could have bought out Richards the 3rd paragraph makes no sense.

The Gabs move was made in a vacuum due to gabs actual play. it was utterly independent of the nash trade

I'm also unsure what you mean by bet the house. Having Richards, Gabs, Lundqvist, Staal, Girardi, Callahan, McD...doesn't seem like they gave up the whole team or bet the house as you are implying. in fact it seems like that team had a boat load of talent...unfortunately 2/3 of that top talent (Gabs and Richards) disappeared. I can't respectfully disagree with someone if they can't even acknowledge how massive it was to lose those two independent of the Nash trade.

 

[StepansLabyrinth]

Rangers had no money to build around AV's system this past offseason. We signed two guys at low-cost contracts (Moore and Pouliot). Those types of players usually fail and, unsurprisingly, they have for us. Next season, we have much more money to play with. That will be the true test to see if this new direction will pan out. This year is not representative of whether or not the system can work. I don't want to absolve Sather because we should have had more skill regardless but it's not like there was much he could have done in the offseason that would have changed results that drastically.

The Nash trade may have been a mistake but you would be pretty hard pressed to find many fans that would have considered our "top line talent" good enough before the trade. We had Gaborik and Richards, the latter who wasn't worth the contract we signed him to from the first day (he was invisible for much of the middle part of the season).

There's a certain revisionist history going on that implies that our team was perfect before the Nash trade. Lundqvist was amazing the season we finished in first, we weren't particularly impressive outside of him. We scrapped together wins and held leads but we weren't the type of team that usually wins the cup.

 

[RangersHank*]

Rangers had no money to build around AV's system this past offseason. We signed two guys at low-cost contracts (Moore and Pouliot). Those types of players usually fail and, unsurprisingly, they have for us. Next season, we have much more money to play with. That will be the true test to see if this new direction will pan out. This year is not representative of whether or not the system can work. I don't want to absolve Sather because we should have had more skill regardless but it's not like there was much he could have done in the offseason that would have changed results that drastically.

The Nash trade may have been a mistake but you would be pretty hard pressed to find many fans that would have considered our "top line talent" good enough before the trade. We had Gaborik and Richards, the latter who wasn't worth the contract we signed him to from the first day (he was invisible for much of the middle part of the season).

There's a certain revisionist history going on that implies that our team was perfect before the Nash trade. Lundqvist was amazing the season we finished in first, we weren't particularly impressive outside of him. We scrapped together wins and held leads but we weren't the type of team that usually wins the cup.

One question: since the Nash trade, how has the team performed? Better or worse?

 

[pld459666]

The team as constructed is NOT capable of playing a skill driven system and anyone who thinks otherwise its completely clues.

The team as currently constructed was done so to play a dumbed down game that Torts employed.

Keep it along the walls, get it behind the goalie and grind. THAT was Torts system and the guys we have are perfect for it. It requires no skill or thought.

AV wants a passing game. A skating game a game based in talent something the Rangers lack.

AV cannot CANNOT get something out of players that they do not have. He cannot make them more talented.

Now, he knew this coming in. So his complaining to me a bit whiny, but he's not wrong. Not at all

 

[Mikos87]

The team as constructed is NOT capable of playing a skill driven system and anyone who thinks otherwise its completely clues.

The team as currently constructed was done so to play a dumbed down game that Torts employed.

Keep it along the walls, get it behind the goalie and grind. THAT was Torts system and the guys we have are perfect for it. It requires no skill or thought.

AV wants a passing game. A skating game a game based in talent something the Rangers lack.

AV cannot CANNOT get something out of players that they do not have. He cannot make them more talented.

Now, he knew this coming in. So his complaining to me a bit whiny, but he's not wrong. Not at all

See the other thing about Torts' system was that it slowed the game down. So when you had isolated races to the puck the Rangers speed guys almost always came away with the puck. Hagelin hounding pucks down on offense, McD getting to pucks before anyone else on D. Hell John Moore looked great under that system. Missed a few checks, but he was a much better player last year than this.

DZ, Staal, G, and Stralman were more than competent under that system. Looking at AV's playoff record of 1-11 in the last dozen games, something tells me his system's been exposed a bit.

Same thing happened to Boucher in Tampa with the 1-3-1. Game 7 of the ECF one year to out of the league in a little while after. Look at the NFL this year with the read option. Teams adapt, the league adapts, I mean it's not like guys sit around for an entire summer and don't do any scouting.

Oh wait that's AV.

 

[LaffyTaffyNYR]

AV is playing with Torts leftovers.. This off season is when AV will have the chance to build the Rangers how he sees fit to (as long as Sather lets him).

 

[StepansLabyrinth]

One question: since the Nash trade, how has the team performed? Better or worse?

It's hard to analyze things in a vacuum like that because you're almost implying he's the only player on the Rangers.

How has Staal performed since that trade? Better or worse? How about Girardi? Callahan? Boyle? Lundqvist?

When we traded for Nash, we gave up two forwards who scored less than 40 points in the previous season, an unproven D-Man, and a 1st. Dubinksy has since turned his game around and been pretty great, but I wouldn't consider him a legitimate top forward in the game like Nash. Anisimov is a third liner, Erixon hasn't made it in the NHL and would have no place on this team. That pick turned into Kerby Rychel, a good prospect but pretty far out from the NHL.

If we had Dubinsky, Anisimov, and Erixon right now but not Nash... is that honestly a better team? There are plenty of players on our roster who played well in 2011-2012 and are struggling now. Our play is probably more of a result of that than Nash, who's played well while healthy.

 

[Shadowtron]

Totally agree with this and said as much yesterday.

Fans scream for a tougher, younger core for a better team identity.

FLIP.

Not enough scoring. Too many 3rd liners. Too much grind and jam. Boring.

FLIP.

Too soft. No team identity.

I don't agree Pizza. Silver I can get behind, even tho I think the point is bit hyperbolic. But I'm not sure I agree with what you're saying here. If I'm getting lost in semantics here, by all means call me out on it. But it's not like people cried for jam, got it, and then were like meh...let's try a scoring build. I'd still live a lunch pale, blue collar team. But I can also identify that the team needs more scoring too. I know I'm not alone here on that. If you can accuse anyone of flip flopping on this level...accuse your gm. Every year he seems to flip the script on this team. Just my two cents tho, Pizza.

 

[LaffyTaffyNYR]

The problem with this team is that there are only so many players who can play the system AV wants to play. and I can count them all on one hand.

 

[beastly115]

About time someone wrote this article.

Sather is the moron who gave Tortorella the team he wanted to win then fired him a few months later.

Such a stupid move. Set us back years.

 

[Trxjw]

My take on a few things being brought up in this thread:

Jeff Gorton has shown that he can lay the ground work for a cup contender. His moves in Boston as well as his drafting set up that franchise for the success that it has had in recent years. The Rask trade. The Chara signing. Highly influential in the Thornton trade. Signed Savard who was phenomenal for them until Cooke ended his career. The '06 draft that resulted in Kessel, Lucic and Marchand. So when people around here get excited at the thought of him running the show, it's not based on a bunch of crap. Sather is the shot caller here. Gorton has been highly influential in targeting younger players to bring in. Moore. McDonagh. Super high on Kreider.

Read the stuff about Richards not being bought out. There were people who disagreed, but Sather had the final say. It's not like everyone in the front office is blindly following Sather. He's been running this team for well over a decade. He's accomplished absolutely nothing. He deserves every bit of criticism he's getting.

Second, people need to stop acting as if AV knew everything there was to know about this team when he took the job. Watch the interviews he gave after he was hired. They're littered with comments about him trying to learn about what he has at his disposal. Sather was the one who told him he thought this team had more offense to give. Now people are calling him out because he realizes that's not the case? I want to hug the guy for finally saying what has been painfully obvious for a while now.

 

[Oak]

Second, people need to stop acting as if AV knew everything there was to know about this team when he took the job. Watch the interviews he gave after he was hired. They're littered with comments about him trying to learn about what he has at his disposal. Sather was the one who told him he thought this team had more offense to give. Now people are calling him out because he realizes that's not the case? I want to hug the guy for finally saying what has been painfully obvious for a while now.

I'm completely with you on this one. People need to get off AV's ass.

Let's see what trades and moves happen at the end of this season. AV should be given at least another season to try to piece a team together before he is criticized as the reason things are no good.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

One question: since the Nash trade, how has the team performed? Better or worse?

One question: Why is looking solely at the Nash trade a smart and truthful way to analyze what happened to this team especially when you consider how Richards and Gabs did?

 

[RangersHank*]

One question: Why is looking solely at the Nash trade a smart and truthful way to analyze what happened to this team especially when you consider how Richards and Gabs did?

Who cares about Gaborik and Richards? I'm talking about the Nash trade. I asked you if they played better or worse since the trade

 

[Savant]

One question: Why is looking solely at the Nash trade a smart and truthful way to analyze what happened to this team especially when you consider how Richards and Gabs did?

There is a very clear delineation between the Rangers results before and after the Nash trade it's certainly a fair point.

 

[StepansLabyrinth]

There is a very clear delineation between the Rangers results before and after the Nash trade it's certainly a fair point.

There is also a very clear delineation in the output from Staal, Girardi, and Callahan who were arguably our 3 best players in 2011-2012.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Rangers had no money to build around AV's system this past offseason. We signed two guys at low-cost contracts (Moore and Pouliot). Those types of players usually fail and, unsurprisingly, they have for us. Next season, we have much more money to play with. That will be the true test to see if this new direction will pan out. This year is not representative of whether or not the system can work. I don't want to absolve Sather because we should have had more skill regardless but it's not like there was much he could have done in the offseason that would have changed results that drastically.

The Nash trade may have been a mistake but you would be pretty hard pressed to find many fans that would have considered our "top line talent" good enough before the trade. We had Gaborik and Richards, the latter who wasn't worth the contract we signed him to from the first day (he was invisible for much of the middle part of the season).

There's a certain revisionist history going on that implies that our team was perfect before the Nash trade. Lundqvist was amazing the season we finished in first, we weren't particularly impressive outside of him. We scrapped together wins and held leads but we weren't the type of team that usually wins the cup.

You want to talk about revisionist history? The majority of this board couldnt shut up about the wayward argument that Tortorella was holding back THIS roster. That THIS roster would thrive under a coach that opened up the offense.

Now the argument is that this team is no good for AV's style? Ha. Sather has cap space this offseason and gets to revamp the team again? This is a good thing? What a joke.

 

[stan the caddy]

You want to talk about revisionist history? The majority of this board couldnt shut up about the wayward argument that Tortorella was holding back THIS roster. That THIS roster would thrive under a coach that opened up the offense.

Now the argument is that this team is no good for AV's style? Ha. Sather has cap space this offseason and gets to revamp the team again? This is a good thing? What a joke.

People act like Tortorella didn't want better players on his team...

Some people are so delusional they think all Torts wanted was a bunch of Brian Boyle's and Ruslan Fedotenko's.

I'd like to point out that the new and improved Brad Richards is on the same point per game pace as last season and that Gaborik still doesn't look right. But it was all Tort's fault.