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Norris Trophy Power Rankings: Rielly on top with gaudy offensive numbers

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TheDoldrums said:
All I've ever argued was that Rielly was not more sheltered than the two Sharks defensemen. I don't need a comeback as to why Rielly has less TOI than Letang, I don't care.

The percentiles aren't subjective. Percentiles are numbers. Subjective percentiles is an oxymoron.
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How can Karlsson and Burns be less sheltered when he plays less TOI/GP, PK MIns, and how can he be more effective when his 5 v 5 corsi is the worse of all players on this list. You have proven nothing. This list is the definition of being sheltered mins when you compare them to the following 4 players. You simply have not answered any of these points. I will keep post them again until you can answer.

You also tried to bring up DZFO's earlier, to demonstrate sheltering. Didn't work right since Rielly was 4th on the Leafs in DZFO's. Right now, you have made no points that demonstrate Rielly is not the most sheltered D man on this list. The truth is, he has nice offensive numbers, due to being put in primarily offensive situations playing with offensive player either Marner or Matthews line 5 v 5.

I'll leave you to ponder the numbers

TOI/GP

1. Letang 26:05
2. Karlsson 24:52
3. Giordano 24:46
4. Burns 24:17
5. Rielly 22:27

SH TOI
1. Giordano 115:13
2. Letang 83:42
2. Burns 82:10
3. Karlsson 71:39
4. Rielly 52:36

SAT% 5 v 5
1. Karlsson 60.13%
2. Burns 57.91
3. Giordano 55.51%
4. Letang 53>79%
5. Rielly 53.38%​
 
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At the halfway point this is Gio. Yet another incredible year.

The Norris trophy winner may not be at the all star game lol
 
LeafsNation75 said:
Why is it that when Rielly got off to his hot start all the non Leafs fans on here said it's to early to give Rielly the Norris Trophy, even though Leafs fans only said he should be considered the favorite. So is it not hypocritical saying that Karlsson should win it because he's currently on a hot streak?
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Pretty much this.

Can't really argue with the guys listed although Giordano should be at #1 IMO.
 
user26 said:
Does anybody think Karlsson can come from a weaker start and pull it off against some tough competition? Or does Rielly/Gio have enough of a gap to keep him at bay if they continue to play how they are?
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I think the biggest problem is vote splitting with Burns, ask the Nashville Dmen how that works.
 
DropIt said:
At the halfway point this is Gio. Yet another incredible year.

The Norris trophy winner may not be at the all star game lol
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I mean, Miro Heiskanen is at the All star-game. Nobody (should) lay any worth what so ever in that side-show.


And before finns and Stars fans takes it the wrong way, know that I think Miros an awesome prospect who’ll have a long, great NHL-career
 
PsYcNeT said:
So, what I'm gathering based on all these stats posted is that it's Gio, yeah? He's back up to P/PG after tonight too, with a league leading +31 with the second toughest QoC in the league.
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That's how it seems to me too, considering all general/advanced stats + eye tests, Gio #1 at this point followed by Letang and then the Sharks duo.
 
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I'm so glad that all these Rielly fans have clarified how the Norris winner is determined. I never realized that the defenseman who scores the most points is automatically awarded the Norris. So its like the Art Ross trophy but strictly for defensemen? Gotcha.
 
PsYcNeT said:
So, what I'm gathering based on all these stats posted is that it's Gio, yeah? He's back up to P/PG after tonight too, with a league leading +31 with the second toughest QoC in the league.
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Gotta be. Story line/sense of deserving, I think there's some backlash building about actual defense being ignored recently. Karlsson and Burns will take votes away from each other. Not sure how much of the voters are from the GTA area but it's gotta be way less biased/concentrated than normal media. Doughty won for similar reasons, and Gio is all those reasons on steroids.

Just being 35 and doing these things is nutty. He should be declining right now, but they gave him a partner that can transition and he looks like a monster.
 
Rubi said:
I'm so glad that all these Rielly fans have clarified how the Norris winner is determined. I never realized that the defenseman who scores the most points is automatically awarded the Norris. So its like the Art Ross trophy but strictly for defensemen? Gotcha.
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You forgot that when Leafs fans said that about Rielly we were told leading all defensemen in points did not matter. Now that Rielly is not leading them all of the sudden that stat matters. So it’s hypocritical because other posters didn’t want Rielly to be considered since he plays for the Leafs.
 
Norris is a joke, has always been and will always be unless they do something drastic to change it, so it stop being so arbitrary. Any trophy that you can take seriosuly shall be based on facts not biased opinions, and there there shall be no voting (voting always make it biased and arbitrary).
 
Y'all want to fetishize Gio's age. Him being 35 and doing what he's doing is impressive. However, Burns is no youngin himself at 33.

Nevermind the fact he is currently nuturing a sizable nest of Golden-Cheeked Warblers, an endangered species, within his beard, not to mention the various hunting and emergency preparedness supplies he keeps stocked in there to boot. All told his beard weighs over a hundred pounds alone.

And if you really wanna talk hair, Erik Karlsson's flow cures cancer.

Giordano is bald and barely has an ounce of stubble.

Burns and Karlsson will split the Norris. Gio will get a free trip to the Ryan Getzlaf Insitute for the Follically Challenged.

Hashtag CASE CLOSED.
 
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The Winter Soldier said:
All I gather from the QOC subjective metric reasoning is maybe Ekblad, Dahlstrom or Ron Hainsey should be Norris candidates too.
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Why? There are many defensemen playing against top competition while also putting up great performances. QoC isn't everything. It's not nothing either. You lack any nuance.

I'm not even saying Burns or EK can't win or won't be deserving. All I've ever said was that since they play against weaker competition than Rielly and get easier zone starts, calling him sheltered over and over compared to them is stupid.

If TOI and SH TOI are the true Norris benchmarks, why aren't you arguing for Doughty, Suter, Jones, Ristolainen, etc.
 
TheDoldrums said:
Uh, what? You'll have to show me that in the dictionary. Obviously I've disagreed many times that your list is the perfect summation of sheltering.
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And your reasoning last night was using Corsica hockey DZFO's and QOC metrics to pump Rielly as a Norris winner. Maybe Hainsey should win it if these are your 2 strongest points. By the way still no rebuttal for the detailed stats I posted?

Let's add a new one today since you value Corsica so much.

Do you know which 2 Defencemen they have rated #1 and #2 in their player ratings using I think you said ''percentiles" yesterday.

1. Burns
2. Karlssson

Letang was #3.
 
TheDoldrums said:
Show me where I ever said Rielly should be the Norris winner.

Stop lying.
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Why are you posting that Burns and Karlsson are more sheltered than Rielly then? You claimed last night this was the case when you cited DZFO's which you cited Vlasic. Where you did not mention Rielly is 4th on the Leafs behind Hainsey, Zaitsev, and Gardiner. How about them apples. Beaten by your own arguments.

You also cited QOC numbers as sheltering. Ok good to know Rielly is behind Hainsey in QOC if this is how you measure sheltering. What are these posts if they are not to pump Rielly for the Norris? If you are backtracking now since you have still yet to address how Rielly has less TOI/GP. PK mins, and the least effective possession stats of the 4 players we are discussing. It's fine to admit you were wrong. Rielly is the most sheltered D man of Letang, Giordano, Burns, and Karlsson.

Now what do you think of the Corsica player rankings that you seem to value so much. Burns and Karlsson #1-#2 for D. You cited them for QOC, you said people value them that understand them consider them accurate. Go ahead admit they are since Corsica is not wrong according to you.
 
The Winter Soldier said:
Why are you posting that Burns and Karlsson are more sheltered than Rielly then? You claimed last night this was the case when you cited DZFO's which you cited Vlasic. Where you did not mention Rielly is 4th on the Leafs behind Hainsey. You also cited QOC numbers as sheltering. Ok good to know Rielly is behind Hainsey in QOC if this is how you measure sheltering. What are these posts if they are not to pump Rielly for the Norris? If you are backtracking now since you have stil yet to address how Rielly has less TOI/GP. PK mins, and the least effective possession stats of the 4 players we are discussing. It's fine to admit you were wrong. Rielly is the most sheltered D man of Letang, Giordano, Burns, and Karlsson.

Now what do you think of the Corsica player rankings that you seem to value so much. Burns and Karlsson #1-#2.
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Rielly's still near the highest percentile in the league in QoC. Hainsey being slightly above that doesn't change that. They're both drastically ahead of Karlsson and Burns in that respect.

This isn't me using QoC to justify Rielly being ahead of either, but his minutes are in fact much harder in comparison.
 
The Winter Soldier said:
Why are you posting that Burns and Karlsson are more sheltered than Rielly then?
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Obviously because you called him sheltered in comparison to EK/Burns, which I believe is incorrect for the reasons outlined so many times above. The crux of your post seeems to be confusion over how I could argue one point in your long diatribe if I don't think Rielly should win the Norris. Well, because I'm rational.
 
TheDoldrums said:
Obviously because you called him sheltered in comparison to EK/Burns, which I believe is incorrect for the reasons outlined so many times above. The crux of your post seeems to be confusion over how I could argue one point in your long diatribe if I don't think Rielly should win the Norris. Well, because I'm rational.
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Not in the stats I detailed that Karlsson and Burns are more sheltered than Rielly is.Rarely do players play more mins on the PK, in overall usage, while having superior possession stats are considered more sheltered.

The defensive zone faceoffs as I debunked that theory of yours does not indicate this either.

Here is what I know from your argument. You said people that understand Corsica stats, will know they are accurate.

You keep citing the QOC metric. If Giordano is #2 in QOC why is he behind Rielly in their player rankings?

Maybe you have overplayed your hand their with QOC. Since Giordano plays more mins than Rielly, more short handed. Mins, has a better possession metric and has 40pts in 42 games.

Explain how Corsica got it wrong here. Since pretty much everyone here would agree Giordano is the better all around defenceman compared to Rielly.

What this just illustrates there is more to hockey analysis than reading an advanced stats sheet.
 
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