Norris Trophy Power Rankings: Rielly on top with gaudy offensive numbers

[TheDoldrums]

If zone starts is how you measure competition. You need to ask Babcock why is Rielly 4th on the Leafs in DZFO behind Zaitsev, Gardiner, and Hainsey? If you want to talk about Vlasic, explain this for us? Rielly is pretty sheltered using your own reasoning right?

And if he still gets more than Burns and Karlsson, imagine how sheltered they are.

If you want to call Rielly more sheltered in comparison to Giordano or Letang, that might actually make sense and I wouldn't be arguing.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

And if he still gets more than Burns and Karlsson, imagine how sheltered they are.

If you want to call Rielly sheltered in comparison to Giordano or Letang, that might actually make sense and I wouldn't argue.

You just claimed Burns and Karlsson were sheltered due to having less DZFO than Vlasic. Why are you not using this same argument against Rielly when he is behind Zaitsev, Gardiner, and Hainsey in DZFO's.

I'd rather talk about this, but you made zone starts a topic and It backfired,

TOI/GP

1. Letang 26:05
2. Karlsson 24:52
3. Giordano 24:46
4. Burns 24:17
5. Rielly 22:27

SH TOI
1. Giordano 115:13
2. Letang 83:42
2. Burns 82:10
3. Karlsson 71:39
4. Rielly 52:36

SAT% 5 v 5
1. Karlsson 60.13%
2. Burns 57.91
3. Giordano 55.51%
4. Letang 53>79%
5. Rielly 53.38%

 

[TheDoldrums]

You just claimed Burns and Karlsson were sheltered due to having less DZFO than Vlasic. Why are you not using this same argument against Rielly when he is behind Zaitsev, Gardiner, and Hainsey in DZFO's.

No, I claimed they were sheltered because of zone starts and competition.

As for Rielly I literally just said you could call Rielly more sheltered than Giordano or Letang. Not sure what more you are looking for here, I acknowledge he doesn't get the toughest usage.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

No, I claimed they were sheltered because of zone starts and competition.

As for Rielly I literally just said you could call Rielly more sheltered than Giordano or Letang. Not sure what more you are looking for here, I acknowledge he doesn't get the toughest usage.

It's just funny you would claim Karlsson and Burns are sheltered due to getting less D zone starts than Vlasic who was a good enough D man to make Team Canada's D.

And Rielly is not good enough to beat out Zaitsev, Gardiner, or Hainsey who would be hard pressed to make a national team as good as Vlasic made, for D zone starts.

And here you are preaching that Karlsson and Burns are more sheltered than Rielly?

 

[TheDoldrums]

It's just funny you would claim Karlsson and Burns are sheltered due to getting less zone starts than Vlasic who was a good enough D man to make Team Canada's D.

And Rielly is not good enough to beat out Zaitsev, Gardiner, or Hainsey who would be hard pressed to make a national team that is as good as Vlasic made, for D zone starts.

And here you are preaching that Karlsson and Burns are more sheltered than Rielly?

Yes, I'm saying the guys who start in the o-zone more, d-zone less and play lesser competition are more sheltered.

I wouldn't say Rielly is more sheltered than Zaitsev and Gardiner, Rielly faces tougher competition than them. Hainsey definitely gets the toughest deployment on the team though. But it's not about "beating them out." The same reasoning you use for Burns/Karlsson offensive starts applies to Rielly too. The Leafs are better with him in offensive positions.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Yes, I'm saying the guys who start in the o-zone more, d-zone less and play lesser competition are more sheltered.

I wouldn't say Rielly is more sheltered than Zaitsev and Gardiner, Rielly faces tougher compeitition than them. Hainsey definitely gets the toughest deployment on the team though.

So after all that, you are now saying D zone starts don't matter for Rielly, but do for Karlsson and Burns. At least you are transparent in your obvious bias.

 

[TheDoldrums]

So after all that, you now are now saying D zone starts don't matter for Rielly, but do for Karlsson and Burns. At least you are transparent in your obvious bias.

I've literally always said it was zone starts and competition. Rielly gets tougher usage than them both in both areas.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I've literally always said it was zone starts and competition. Rielly gets tougher usage than them both in both areas.

Here are the mins again. Rielly is last in TOI, last in PK mins, and last in SAT%. Now that zone starts has been defeated since Rielly is only 4th on the Leafs in DZFO. How is his usage harder than any of the 4 ahead of him?

TOI/GP

1. Letang 26:05
2. Karlsson 24:52
3. Giordano 24:46
4. Burns 24:17
5. Rielly 22:27

SH TOI
1. Giordano 115:13
2. Letang 83:42
2. Burns 82:10
3. Karlsson 71:39
4. Rielly 52:36

SAT% 5 v 5
1. Karlsson 60.13%
2. Burns 57.91
3. Giordano 55.51%
4. Letang 53>79%
5. Rielly 53.38%

 

[TheDoldrums]

Here are the mins again. Rielly is last in TOI, last in PK mins, and last in SAT%. Now that zone starts has been defeated since Rielly is only 4th on the Leafs. How is his usage harder than any of the 4 ahead of him?

TOI/GP

1. Letang 26:05
2. Karlsson 24:52
3. Giordano 24:46
4. Burns 24:17
5. Rielly 22:27

SH TOI
1. Giordano 115:13
2. Letang 83:42
2. Burns 82:10
3. Karlsson 71:39
4. Rielly 52:36

SAT% 5 v 5
1. Karlsson 60.13%
2. Burns 57.91
3. Giordano 55.51%
4. Letang 53>79%
5. Rielly 53.38%

I've explained my reasoning pretty clearly. There's no need to repeatedly spam the same numbers.

 

[HugginThePost]

So much for his “gaudy” offensive numbers!

Who would of thought his shooting percentage would normalize?!?!

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Are you having a stroke? I've explained my reasoning pretty clearly. There's no need to spam the same numbers repeatedly.

The only explanation you have provided is DZFO's.Which Rielly is even lower at 4th on his own team than Burns and Karlsson who are 3rd and 4th on SJ. Which contradicts your own argument. Then you made a baseless claim of saying Rielly faced tougher competition without any data to support your claim, Let's face it, you have no answer for lower TOI/GP, PK TOI, and worse possession stats, And none are forthcoming since Rielly is the most sheltered D of the 4. It is silly to claim he is in the same class of all around D of any of Letang, Giordano, Burns, or Karlsson are.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

I've explained my reasoning pretty clearly. There's no need to repeatedly spam the same numbers.

Translation. I don’t like the numbers so I’m going to call them ‘spam’.
Sometimes it’s better to just acknowledge you were wrong.

 

[DJJones]

God damn. Guess I need to watch the sharks play more. Those numbers are nutty.

Are they playing together at all?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Translation. I don’t like the numbers!

Or the facts. Zone starts did not go well for him. He didn't bother to check Rielly's own DZFO stats when he claimed this was a sign of sheltering for D men. lol

 

[TheDoldrums]

Translation. I don’t like the numbers so I’m going to call them ‘spam’.
Sometimes it’s better to just acknowledge you were wrong.

Posting the exact same lengthy excerpt 4 times over two pages seems like spam to me.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Posting the exact same lengthy excerpt 4 times over two pages seems like spam to me.

But the stats are pretty compelling.
There’s more to playing defense than just points.
The Norris generally goes to a defenseman who plays big minutes in all situations.

 

[LeafsNation75]

The only explanation you have provided is DZFO's.Which Rielly is even lower at 4th on his own team than Burns and Karlsson who are 3rd and 4th on SJ. Which contradicts your own argument. Then you made a baseless claim of saying Rielly faced tougher competition without any data to support your claim, Let's face it, you have no answer for lower TOI/GP, PK TOI, and worse possession stats, And none are forthcoming since Rielly is the most sheltered D of the 4. It is silly to claim he is in the same class of all around D of any of Letang, Giordano, Burns, or Karlsson are.

Besides all these analytic numbers you keep mentioning are they something the Norris Trophy voters care about? In the end won't their stats such as goals, assists and points matter the most to them? You can say how Rielly ranks 5th in those categories but in terms of importance to the Leafs he is their #1 defensemen and ranks 3rd in total points on the team.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Then you made a baseless claim of saying Rielly faced tougher competition without any data to support your claim

Quality of Competition

Giordano - 100th percentile (2nd toughest in the entire league among defensemen)
Vlasic - 95th percentile
Letang - 94th percentile
Rielly - 91st percentile

Karlsson - 54th percentile

Burns - 38th percentile

 

[The Winter Soldier]

QoC

Giordano - 100th percentile (2nd toughest in the entire league among defensemen)
Letang - 94th percentile
Rielly - 91st percentile
Karlsson - 54th percentile
Burns - 38th percentile

Source and do you think QOC infallible as a stat? There is no way of putting a number on competition is there? Whereas the stats I showed are.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Source and do you think QOC infallible as a stat? There is no way of putting a number on competition is there? Whereas the stats I showed are.

Source is Corsica. Yes, there's numbers, percentiles help people understand the gaps. That's why SKATR charts are popular.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Source is Corsica. Yes, there's numbers, percentiles help people understand the gaps. That's why SKATR charts are popular.

I don't think there is any stat or number you can measure QOC. Subjective.

These numbers are not subjective. You have not addressed them. They are hard fact stats. Also I am glad you have abandoned the DZFO starts argument. You have to admit that was a silly one.

TOI/GP

1. Letang 26:05
2. Karlsson 24:52
3. Giordano 24:46
4. Burns 24:17
5. Rielly 22:27

SH TOI
1. Giordano 115:13
2. Letang 83:42
2. Burns 82:10
3. Karlsson 71:39
4. Rielly 52:36

SAT% 5 v 5
1. Karlsson 60.13%
2. Burns 57.91
3. Giordano 55.51%
4. Letang 53>79%
5. Rielly 53.38%

 

[TheDoldrums]

I don't think there is any stat or number you can measure QOC.

I know you don't. Luckily there are smarter people than you who are on the case and providing data.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I know you don't. Luckily there are smarter people than you who are on the case and providing data.

What about the data I presented, far more detailed and in depth to your subjective percentiles. No comeback to explain why Rielly lags behind these 4 Norris candidates?

 

[TheDoldrums]

What about the data I presented, far more detailed and in depth to your subjective percentiles. No comeback to explain why Rielly lags behind these 4 Norris candidates?

All I've ever argued was that Rielly was not more sheltered than the two Sharks defensemen. I don't need a comeback as to why Rielly has less TOI than Letang, I don't care.

The percentiles aren't subjective. Percentiles are numbers. Subjective percentiles is an oxymoron.

 

[PsYcNeT]

So, what I'm gathering based on all these stats posted is that it's Gio, yeah? He's back up to P/PG after tonight too, with a league leading +31 with the second toughest QoC in the league.