Non-Sharks NorCal Sports Thread XXVI

[Bizz]

Casilla needs to be DFA'd. Strickland is just as terrible but at least he hasn't blown 9 saves this year. Romo deserves another shot.

 

[Lebanezer]

If someone had told me that Giants would manage to do what they're doing right now, I would not have believed them.

 

[Negatively Positive]

Giants are better off missing the playoffs than ruining their playoff mystique with an early exit. They don't have it this year. This is some mind boggling ****.

 

[Lebanezer]

Giants are better off missing the playoffs than ruining their playoff mystique with an early exit. They don't have it this year. This is some mind boggling ****.

Odds are that's going to happen. They're going to be the first team in baseball history to be the best team before the all-star game and the worst team after. Although Minnesota might save them from that distinction.

 

[Negatively Positive]

After the Sharks and Warriors both lost in the finals, people were joking about the Giants losing in the WS but they managed to choke before the playoffs. Damn it Giants you're supposed to be the clutch non-chokers who pull championships out of their ass. Rough year for the Bay Area.

 

[Tkachuk4MVP]

I still think they'll get in, but Bochy has to figure out how to manage both the lineup and the bullpen better. Pulling Bum after the 7th and burning his (at the moment) two best relievers in the 8th was inexplicable.

 

[Bizz]

And I thought the 2014 A's had it bad.

 

[Tkachuk4MVP]

Just listened to a really uncomfortable radio interview with Kuip, never heard him so pissed off before.

 

[SJSharksfan39]

Just listened to a really uncomfortable radio interview with Kuip, never heard him so pissed off before.

I did too. At this point I hope the Giants don't make the playoffs. They don't deserve it and they probably won't succeed with a bullpen like that.

With that said, maybe I'm just jaded by the 3 world series, but when you talk about choke jobs, I should be affected by this a lot more than I really am. This is an epic collapse but at least it should be a sign that the Giants should be agressive in the offseason for bullpen help. The fact that they didn't seem as aggressive at the trade deadline was maddening though.

 

[Lebanezer]

Just listened to a really uncomfortable radio interview with Kuip, never heard him so pissed off before.

I did too. At this point I hope the Giants don't make the playoffs. They don't deserve it and they probably won't succeed with a bullpen like that.

With that said, maybe I'm just jaded by the 3 world series, but when you talk about choke jobs, I should be affected by this a lot more than I really am. This is an epic collapse but at least it should be a sign that the Giants should be agressive in the offseason for bullpen help. The fact that they didn't seem as aggressive at the trade deadline was maddening though.

What did Kuip say?

The Giants attempted to get Wade Davis at the trade deadline, but it fell through because he went on the DL.

 

[SJSharksfan39]

What did Kuip say?

The Giants attempted to get Wade Davis at the trade deadline, but it fell through because he went on the DL.

It wasn't what he said, but more his attitude. It was like having a child reluctantly having to do something his parents wanted him to do but his heart really wasn't in it.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I'm not surprised. Even with them having the best record before the break, they looked like they were catching a lot of breaks and that just hasn't happened after the break. The things that are killing them are obviously the bullpen. They did what they could but too many guys are just off this year. When Law and Kontos are your best guys out of the pen, that's a problem when they're not the regular go-to guys. The other thing that's been killing them is the fact that they have gotten crap years out of the guys that have been hitting in the 1 and 2 spots.

The truth is that guys like Span, Panik, Nunez, and Pagan just haven't gotten the job done to set up Posey, Pence, Belt, and Crawford. Really, they should have Belt lead off or in the two spot instead of pushing him down to 7. Crawford should probably hit three and Posey and Pence in 4 and 5.

Their offense would have been a lot better this year with Belt at the top of the lineup instead of in the 5, 6, or 7 spots that he's been at most of the year especially with the standard guys not getting the job done.

So some of it is getting lucky to start the year, some of it is not getting good years out of some key spots, and some of it is Bochy not utilizing what he has as best he can. Belt with a .385 OBP has no business hitting 6th or 7th when the top of your lineup is not getting on base at least a third of the time.

 

[DonskoiDonscored]

Trading Matt Duffy was a mistake.

 

[Tkachuk4MVP]

What did Kuip say?

The Giants attempted to get Wade Davis at the trade deadline, but it fell through because he went on the DL.

He constantly brought up how he wanted to go back to bed, had zero sense of humor every time the hosts tried to crack a joke, and just hung up the phone at the end of the interview without saying "thanks," "goodbye," or anything. I've never heard him that surly, it was bizarre.

 

[Tkachuk4MVP]

Trading Matt Duffy was a mistake.

Why, can he close games?

 

[Lebanezer]

It wasn't what he said, but more his attitude. It was like having a child reluctantly having to do something his parents wanted him to do but his heart really wasn't in it.

He constantly brought up how he wanted to go back to bed, had zero sense of humor every time the hosts tried to crack a joke, and just hung up the phone at the end of the interview without saying "thanks," "goodbye," or anything. I've never heard him that surly, it was bizarre.

Wow, that is weird. Can't blame him for being pissed though, the Giants are embarrassing themselves.

Trading Matt Duffy was a mistake.

As much as we all love Duffy, aside from last season, he has no track record of actually being that good.

I'm not surprised. Even with them having the best record before the break, they looked like they were catching a lot of breaks and that just hasn't happened after the break. The things that are killing them are obviously the bullpen. They did what they could but too many guys are just off this year. When Law and Kontos are your best guys out of the pen, that's a problem when they're not the regular go-to guys. The other thing that's been killing them is the fact that they have gotten crap years out of the guys that have been hitting in the 1 and 2 spots.

The truth is that guys like Span, Panik, Nunez, and Pagan just haven't gotten the job done to set up Posey, Pence, Belt, and Crawford. Really, they should have Belt lead off or in the two spot instead of pushing him down to 7. Crawford should probably hit three and Posey and Pence in 4 and 5.

Their offense would have been a lot better this year with Belt at the top of the lineup instead of in the 5, 6, or 7 spots that he's been at most of the year especially with the standard guys not getting the job done.

So some of it is getting lucky to start the year, some of it is not getting good years out of some key spots, and some of it is Bochy not utilizing what he has as best he can. Belt with a .385 OBP has no business hitting 6th or 7th when the top of your lineup is not getting on base at least a third of the time.

I agree with this. I would really prefer to see Williamson play over Pagan. Pagan pouted for half the season after losing his job in center field. It's time to move on from him anyway.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Giants flailing while the A's are playing their best baseball while being out of it with a bunch of AAA'ers and Khris Davis. Go figure.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Trading Matt Duffy was a mistake.

Matt Duffy wasn't doing anything this year either and hasn't done anything since the trade. They've gotten more out of Moore than they were Duffy and they likely will as time goes on. They traded Duffy at the right time honestly. They gave him an opportunity to solidify himself as a regular everyday player and he struggled mightily.

With Moore, they will at least have a solid starting arm as long as they want him and they need that with Heston bombing, Peavy and Cain dropping out, and really nobody else to fill the void.

I think these last couple weeks they need to lean more heavily on Kontos, Strickland, and Law. I think that should be their 7th, 8th, and 9th inning order. They also just have to hope that Lopez figures it out in his specialty spots. Smith hasn't been good and Osich is trash. They need to use Romo and Casilla sparingly and preferably very early or in extra innings when they don't have a choice. If they need a bridge from the 6th to the 7th is when I'd use those two and the lefties as needed but Kontos, Strickland, and Law have been their best this year and they need to live or die by them because they've earned it the most out of everyone in their bullpen right now.

 

[Tkachuk4MVP]

I'm not surprised. Even with them having the best record before the break, they looked like they were catching a lot of breaks and that just hasn't happened after the break. The things that are killing them are obviously the bullpen. They did what they could but too many guys are just off this year. When Law and Kontos are your best guys out of the pen, that's a problem when they're not the regular go-to guys. The other thing that's been killing them is the fact that they have gotten crap years out of the guys that have been hitting in the 1 and 2 spots.

The truth is that guys like Span, Panik, Nunez, and Pagan just haven't gotten the job done to set up Posey, Pence, Belt, and Crawford. Really, they should have Belt lead off or in the two spot instead of pushing him down to 7. Crawford should probably hit three and Posey and Pence in 4 and 5.

Their offense would have been a lot better this year with Belt at the top of the lineup instead of in the 5, 6, or 7 spots that he's been at most of the year especially with the standard guys not getting the job done.

So some of it is getting lucky to start the year, some of it is not getting good years out of some key spots, and some of it is Bochy not utilizing what he has as best he can. Belt with a .385 OBP has no business hitting 6th or 7th when the top of your lineup is not getting on base at least a third of the time.

Bochy's stubbornness with the lineup has been almost as frustrating as his Casilla obsession. Belt's got the best OBP on the team by a mile and he's always hitting 6th and 7th, that can't happen. I agree that he should've been put in the #2 spot a long time ago.

Matt Duffy wasn't doing anything this year either and hasn't done anything since the trade. They've gotten more out of Moore than they were Duffy and they likely will as time goes on. They traded Duffy at the right time honestly. They gave him an opportunity to solidify himself as a regular everyday player and he struggled mightily.

With Moore, they will at least have a solid starting arm as long as they want him and they need that with Heston bombing, Peavy and Cain dropping out, and really nobody else to fill the void.

I think these last couple weeks they need to lean more heavily on Kontos, Strickland, and Law. I think that should be their 7th, 8th, and 9th inning order. They also just have to hope that Lopez figures it out in his specialty spots. Smith hasn't been good and Osich is trash. They need to use Romo and Casilla sparingly and preferably very early or in extra innings when they don't have a choice. If they need a bridge from the 6th to the 7th is when I'd use those two and the lefties as needed but Kontos, Strickland, and Law have been their best this year and they need to live or die by them because they've earned it the most out of everyone in their bullpen right now.

Agree about Moore/Duffy, but I'd swap Smith/Strickland in your bullpen analysis. Smith got off to a rocky start but has been lights out ever since (hasn't given up a run in a month). Bochy is finally starting to utilize him as more than a platoon guy, and at this point he and Law should be the closer by committee and not 7th/8th inning guys. Right now I don't trust any of Lopez/Romo/Casilla/Strickland in the 9th.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Bochy's stubbornness with the lineup has been almost as frustrating as his Casilla obsession. Belt's got the best OBP on the team by a mile and he's always hitting 6th and 7th, that can't happen. I agree that he should've been put in the #2 spot a long time ago.





Agree about Moore/Duffy, but I'd swap Smith/Strickland in your bullpen analysis. Smith got off to a rocky start but has been lights out ever since (hasn't given up a run in a month). Bochy is finally starting to utilize him as more than a platoon guy, and at this point he and Law should be the closer by committee and not 7th/8th inning guys. Right now I don't trust any of Lopez/Romo/Casilla/Strickland in the 9th.

I understand the desire to try and make it work with someone you've had success with for a while or one you see a lot in like he does in Strickland but they're tied for the last playoff spot and have been sinking for a while. You got to look at who is getting the job done and put them in the critical situations and let the guys failing in those situations try and find success in less critical situations until they've earned that honor back.

I don't disagree regarding the swap on Smith/Strickland but I can go either way on that one. While it's easy not to trust Strickland in the 9th, he's done pretty well outside of that this year.

 

[Tkachuk4MVP]

I understand the desire to try and make it work with someone you've had success with for a while or one you see a lot in like he does in Strickland but they're tied for the last playoff spot and have been sinking for a while. You got to look at who is getting the job done and put them in the critical situations and let the guys failing in those situations try and find success in less critical situations until they've earned that honor back.

I don't disagree regarding the swap on Smith/Strickland but I can go either way on that one. While it's easy not to trust Strickland in the 9th, he's done pretty well outside of that this year.

True, but like you said, you have to look at who's getting the job done right now and put those players in the more critical situations. Going back to the same 9th inning guys over and over isn't working.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Why does inning 9 psyche some guys out? There are high-stress situations in every inning, but some guys just can't handle the last 3 outs for some reason.

 

[The Nemesis]

Why does inning 9 psyche some guys out? There are high-stress situations in every inning, but some guys just can't handle the last 3 outs for some reason.

I think it's largely manufactured. The whole close mystique is entirely engineered and a relatively recent invention in baseball history. And historically speaking through the entire history of the game, he rate at which teams convert what would be a save situation entering the 9th into a win has never changed. Before the use of pitchers in non-injury/performance relief roles, beforeally the invention of bullpen specialists, before the invention of the save as a statistic, before the invention of the close as a singular job or he rigidly structured 7-8 man pen, and since any and all of those things, if you enter the 9th with a 1-3 run lead you're bounder to win those games about 95% of the time no matter the date of the game. If the last 3 outs were any harder to get than any other outs for any objective,rational, and non engineered psychological reason, then the rate shouldve changed at some point.

But it hasn't.

I wish I could still find a post I made about this where I linked the study and article that info came from. Several years ago I made a post in a Blue Jays thread about why saves are stupid and the close is overrated and cited that material. But I think it's since been lost to the great thread purge that nuked anything older than roughly 3 years.

EDIT:

I don't have that post, but I have some links that I believe point to the same evidence (the original ESPN piece that had some extra work tied to it seems to have been nuked in one of ESPN's reorganizations of their site.

http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2014/04/30/the-timeless-game-and-maybe-the-myth-of-closers/

http://tangotiger.com/index.php/sit...leading-into-the-ninth-means-winning-the-game

http://www.retrosheet.org/Research/SmithD/ScoringPattern.pdf

 

[rangerssharks414]

The save is a stupid stat. It changes the way that managers manage the game. Heck, someone got a save in the 30-3 game that happened between Texas and Baltimore about a decade ago (it was Wes Littleton... why do I remember stuff like that?).

Poor Baltimore... that 30-3 game was only the first game of a doubleheader.

 

[Bizz]

I thought pitchers only get awarded a save if they enter the game leading by 4 or less.

Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Save_(baseball)#Usage