GDT: Non-Panthers NFL Discussion part 3: Meet the new season, same as the old season?

[Derailed75]

I didn’t call her trash. I said she’s not all that talented which I stand by. Entertainment isn’t a skill meritocracy, she’s got a package that wound up being marketable and she surely works very hard, but it’s nothing that is all that difficult for others to replicate. Timing and luck is ultimately much more important than talent when it comes to music. I do enjoy plenty of music that also is simple and doesn’t require any special talent.

Im gonna jump in here. Any artist that actually writes songs (lyrics or music) and actually plays an instrument is miles above the typical pop and country pop trash that dance around a look good. Also if you dont write any type of music and you dont play an instrument you are an artist not a musician.

No offense to a lot of pop/ country pop/ and rap artists but writing a poem and finding a sample you like to lay over the drum machine track you found does not a musician make.

Quick edit this does not apply to all pop, country pop or rap artists, there are plenty in each of those categories that can and do some or all of the above.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

Im gonna jump in here. Any artist that actually writes songs (lyrics or music) and actually plays an instrument is miles above the typical pop and country pop trash that dance around a look good. Also if you dont write any type of music and you dont play an instrument you are an artist not a musician.

No offense to a lot of pop/ country pop/ and rap artists but writing a poem and finding a sample you like to lay over the drum machine track you found does not a musician make.

Quick edit this does not apply to all pop, country pop or rap artists, there are plenty in each of those categories that can and do some or all of the above.

Yes in that regard I consider Swift to be considerably better than much of the trash out there on the billboard charts (if they still do those, I'm not even sure...) as she does actually play an instrument and write original songs. Unless a song has actual instruments being played I don't even consider it music, just sound. Only nitpick is that there are extraordinarily talented singers out there who I would categorize as great musicians. The voice in many ways isn't much different than an instrument. An Ella Fitzgerald or Aretha Franklin is every bit as musically impressive as a Jimi Hendrix, Oscar Peterson or other great "musician." And you can have incredibly talented "songwriters" who don't even perform the music but just write and arrange complex pieces for others to perform (i.e. many composers of film soundtracks, etc.).

But in the grand scheme of all things music, Swift's songs are incredibly simple writing and her guitar/piano playing and singing are not all that impressive to me. Many others can and have replicated the sound and nothing in her sound is new or trailblazing. Her total package has gotten her where she is with a lot of luck as well, not her having a talent that is so far above most others that it propelled her to fame. I'd rate her as a slightly above average musician. In today's world though, there are plenty of poor musicians (or non-musicians entirely) who are famous and whose "music" is listened to widely, so it certainly could be worse than her... And to my previous point, that just comes down to peoples' personal preferences which are what they are and I certainly won't argue with.

And none of that has anything to do with Swift putting on her act for the cameras 24/7 and whining about politics and voting and climate change while flying her private jet all around the world, along with plenty of anecdotes out there of her not being a good person at all. Personally I don't really care and I don't know her so I'm not going to judge her entirely off of things like that but I do find the obsession with her quite fascinating when considering how her rabid fanbase ignores things like that.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Yes in that regard I consider Swift to be considerably better than much of the trash out there on the billboard charts (if they still do those, I'm not even sure...) as she does actually play an instrument and write original songs. Unless a song has actual instruments being played I don't even consider it music, just sound. Only nitpick is that there are extraordinarily talented singers out there who I would categorize as great musicians. The voice in many ways isn't much different than an instrument. An Ella Fitzgerald or Aretha Franklin is every bit as musically impressive as a Jimi Hendrix, Oscar Peterson or other great "musician." And you can have incredibly talented "songwriters" who don't even perform the music but just write and arrange complex pieces for others to perform (i.e. many composers of film soundtracks, etc.).

But in the grand scheme of all things music, Swift's songs are incredibly simple writing and her guitar/piano playing and singing are not all that impressive to me. Many others can and have replicated the sound and nothing in her sound is new or trailblazing. Her total package has gotten her where she is with a lot of luck as well, not her having a talent that is so far above most others that it propelled her to fame. I'd rate her as a slightly above average musician. In today's world though, there are plenty of poor musicians (or non-musicians entirely) who are famous and whose "music" is listened to widely, so it certainly could be worse than her... And to my previous point, that just comes down to peoples' personal preferences which are what they are and I certainly won't argue with.

I think you are severely underestimating her talent, but as you said, it comes down to people's personal preference. I remember when my kids were younger they would go crazy over some Indy bands, but as soon as one of those bands became popular, they no longer liked them because they "sold out" or "their songs were simple now"; when in reality, they were more enamored with the IDEA of liking a band that wasn't mainstream.

No doubt the show she puts on is a big part of her appeal, but that's not unique to her. Even a guy like Elvis, the "King" of rock and roll sold and image and a show as much as he sold his talent.

And none of that has anything to do with Swift putting on her act for the cameras 24/7 and whining about politics and voting and climate change while flying her private jet all around the world, along with plenty of anecdotes out there of her not being a good person at all. Personally I don't really care and I don't know her so I'm not going to judge her entirely off of things like that but I do find the obsession with her quite fascinating when considering how her rabid fanbase ignores things like that.

You care so little that you've now brought it up a couple of times.

As far as rabid fan bases ignoring things, how is that any different from any other artist, professional athlete, politician, actors/actresses, or any celebrity in general? It's not really that fascinating, it's common place.

Politics plays a part as LakeLiven said. I have a friend who used to love Jason Isbell. Always referred to him as a real songwriter, but now he refuses to see him and complains about him? Why? He disagrees with him politically.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

I think you are severely underestimating her talent, but as you said, it comes down to people's personal preference. I remember when my kids were younger they would go crazy over some Indy bands, but as soon as one of those bands became popular, they no longer liked them because they "sold out" or "their songs were simple now"; when in reality, they were more enamored with the IDEA of liking a band that wasn't mainstream.

No doubt the show she puts on is a big part of her appeal, but that's not unique to her. Even a guy like Elvis, the "King" of rock and roll sold and image and a show as much as he sold his talent.

You care so little that you've now brought it up a couple of times.

As far as rabid fan bases ignoring things, how is that any different from any other artist, professional athlete, politician, actors/actresses, or any celebrity in general? It's not really that fascinating, it's common place.

Politics plays a part as LakeLiven said. I have a friend who used to love Jason Isbell. Always referred to him as a real songwriter, but now he refuses to see him and complains about him? Why? He disagrees with him politically.

Are you a musician?

I didn't bring Swift up, just have offered my thoughts since that was the topic of the moment and responded to those who responded to me, if you don't like them then so be it but I certainly did not bring up Swift.

The levels of fame that Swift has reached in the past year is on quite a bit different level from "any other artist, professional athlete, politician, actors/actresses, or any celebrity in general" and I've interacted with certain "Swifties" and observed let's say "unique" behavior compared to "fanatics" of those other types of people you've mentioned. It's one thing to love the music passionately, it's a completely different thing to have a celebrity like her invade your every thought and action. That is what I find fascinating. And no, it's not entirely unique to just Swift, there are some others, but it's not a common fanatic phenomenon by any means.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Are you a musician?

Are *you* a musician? I'm guessing you are. So am I.

There are lots and lots of musicians out there who are overly confident that anything that doesn't conform to their narrow definition isn't "real" music. And very few of them, in my experience, have tried to mix down 200 tracks of music into something coherent. And that's because it's extremely f***ing hard.

It's gatekeeping, pure and simple, and it's as old as music is.

 

[MinJaBen]

Just going to leave this here…..

I'm going to laugh my ass off when Harbaugh shows up in DC and stacks up 10-win seasons like cord wood.

I think he’s going to The Chargers.

 

[VaCaps Fan]

My sister will die for Taylor Swift as a swiftie.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Just going to leave this here…..

You are correct, sir!

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

The levels of fame that Swift has reached in the past year is on quite a bit different level from "any other artist, professional athlete, politician, actors/actresses, or any celebrity in general" and I've interacted with certain "Swifties" and observed let's say "unique" behavior compared to "fanatics" of those other types of people you've mentioned. It's one thing to love the music passionately, it's a completely different thing to have a celebrity like her invade your every thought and action. That is what I find fascinating. And no, it's not entirely unique to just Swift, there are some others, but it's not a common fanatic phenomenon by any means.

Well, I strongly disagree that there is nobody else right now that has a fanatical following that invades their every thought and action, but I'll leave it at that to not wander into discussions disallowed on HF.

I'm fine disagreeing about a particular artists talent and ability. You stated your opinion which I'm fine with, but if you don't like that I disagree and share a different opinion, then so be it.

I have a lot of very good friends that are artists (paintings) and my wife and I have been collecting and been involved in the art community for 20+ years (and she paints, but doesn't sell). I see a very similar thing in many of them with regards to styles of art. Most of them are more traditional artists or impressionists. Many traditional artists think that impressionists who are much looser in their paintings aren't as talented. Many of the impressionists and traditional painters think that modern/abstract artists aren't as talented. Last week, one even commented to that a kid could do what they do.

There's the technical aspect of painting which the traditional artists often thrive in but for many of them, their goal is to capture the subject exactly as it's seen (I'm oversimplifying). Some of them are almost photographic when they are done. It's remarkable. There's the creative aspect of painting that the impressionists and abstract artists thrive in. Knowing how to be looser on the edges of a painting to give a painting more depth, make it almost 3D. The use of colors to draw your eyes and/or to simulate lighting and motion. Ways to take artistic licenses to make it a better painting and allow the viewer to use their imagination. Flow and thickness of paint in a way to allow one viewer to see things another can't, etc.. This is also remarkable.

What seems like "less talent" is really not IMO. It's a different talent. My tastes have evolved over the years as I've learned to appreciate different styles of art.

Hank summarized it nicely in a lot fewer words.

 

[WreckingCrew]

Haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate...amirite?

I think it's more about "female" celebrities.

I'm going to piss off some posters, but so be it. It's funny (and sad), that many can't handle female celebrities. Just look at this thread. Annoying are Ariana Grande, Taylor Swift, Cardi B, Lizzo, Billie Eilish, Beyonce, etc.

I'll give posters the benefit of the doubt as they were comparing to Swift, who is a female, so they are only comparing to female artists; but I've seen this way more elsewhere on social media and in real life. I'm not a Taylor Swift fan, but can acknowledge what a remarkable job she's done creating her brand. Success and talent aren't directly related. There are 1000s of talented musicians that never make it. It's about marketing oneself and getting a lucky break. That goes back to the Beatles, Elvis, Madonna, etc...

This I'll say seems like quite a leap...I think you're making connections that aren't there for some reason. The discussion was on Swift so it makes sense to compare her to other popular female pop stars/artists. There are plenty of crappy male pop stars and artists too...Bieber is/was a prime example. But let's be honest, they tend to fade into oblivion bc they're not as marketable as a "strong female" these days, so they probably end up with less overhype/hate. There are plenty of female artist most people unanimously love/respect too (even if you don't like their music), like Dolly Parton, Adele, Rihanna, Lady Gaga, Aretha Franklin, etc...so I don't think it's a "female artist" thing

 

[MinJaBen]

Hank summarized it nicely in a lot fewer words.

Some people just have a talent for brevity that others don't appreciate.

 

[Derailed75]

Yes in that regard I consider Swift to be considerably better than much of the trash out there on the billboard charts (if they still do those, I'm not even sure...) as she does actually play an instrument and write original songs. Unless a song has actual instruments being played I don't even consider it music, just sound. Only nitpick is that there are extraordinarily talented singers out there who I would categorize as great musicians. The voice in many ways isn't much different than an instrument. An Ella Fitzgerald or Aretha Franklin is every bit as musically impressive as a Jimi Hendrix, Oscar Peterson or other great "musician." And you can have incredibly talented "songwriters" who don't even perform the music but just write and arrange complex pieces for others to perform (i.e. many composers of film soundtracks, etc.).

But in the grand scheme of all things music, Swift's songs are incredibly simple writing and her guitar/piano playing and singing are not all that impressive to me. Many others can and have replicated the sound and nothing in her sound is new or trailblazing. Her total package has gotten her where she is with a lot of luck as well, not her having a talent that is so far above most others that it propelled her to fame. I'd rate her as a slightly above average musician. In today's world though, there are plenty of poor musicians (or non-musicians entirely) who are famous and whose "music" is listened to widely, so it certainly could be worse than her... And to my previous point, that just comes down to peoples' personal preferences which are what they are and I certainly won't argue with.

And none of that has anything to do with Swift putting on her act for the cameras 24/7 and whining about politics and voting and climate change while flying her private jet all around the world, along with plenty of anecdotes out there of her not being a good person at all. Personally I don't really care and I don't know her so I'm not going to judge her entirely off of things like that but I do find the obsession with her quite fascinating when considering how her rabid fanbase ignores things like that.

As far as how good a musician is i have mixed feelings. As a kid from the 80's i grew up on hair bands and then metal. Steve Via put out a solo album about the time he was playing for DLR. While even at that age I could tell it was a technically great guitar album it wasn't very appealing to a lot of people ears and just didn't sell well. One the other hand most Metallica fans called them sellouts for thr Black album which is by far one of the best selling metal albums of all time, and sent them from one of the biggest metal bands in the world to one of the biggest bands of all time. Playing wise it is nowhere near as good as Kill em all, Ride the Lightning, Master or Justice, but it appealed to so many more people.

TLDR she writes and plays music that appeals to a lot of people, so I may not like it its hard to argue with her impact. Honestly it's great for the future of music if her crappy pop music sparks interest in some young girl who grows up to be a big time musician.

 

[Svechhammer]

Haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate...amirite?

 

[A Star is Burns]

 

[LakeLivin]

Some people just have a talent for brevity that others don't appreciate.

Yup.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Some people just have a talent for brevity that others don't appreciate.

Reminds me of when I worked in tech as an electrical engineer. I often had to do some coding for projects but it wasn't my main job, nor my main expertise, but I enjoyed it. A co-worker, who was a coder/programmer and did it full time once helped me out with a project as I was stuck on one thing.

He laughed and said "I can tell an engineer wrote this, way too many lines of code to accomplish simple tasks".

Knowing Hank's background and my background, it check's out on HF as well.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Jackson continues his run of being overrated

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

Chiefs going back to the SB (barring some crazy shit happening in the last 5min or so). Hopefully Lions win tonight so I can enjoy a matchup where I'm happy with either winner.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Taylor Swift just keeps on winning.

 

[LakeLivin]

The lack of discipline in critical games by some athletes at the highest levels amazes me. I could see slip ups by college kids, but pros?

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

My older sister and her husband, as well as my best friend growing up are Lion's fans. Normally, as a Packer's fan I would root against the NFC North opponents, but I'm rooting for the Lions. I think they have a difficult task, but the first drive was great so who knows.

Of course, me rooting for them might be a curse.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

The lack of discipline in critical games by some athletes at the highest levels amazes me. I could see slip ups by college kids, but pros?

as invincible as they seem they're still just humans. immense pressure that most of the general public would never feel, millions of eyes on them trying to do their job. emotions run very high too.

 

[hockeynjune]

Taylor Swift just keeps on winning.

Almost like she knows what she is doing

 

[HisIceness]

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Don't kid yourself. It was Taylor Swift that caused that.