OT: Non-Hockey Sports Thread X - The Search is on! (Scramblin' Fran Edition)

[57special]

In other news, The Vikings extend Cousins in a move that makes absolutely no sense.

Well, I don't agree with it, but I can see what they are doing. Giving the Cousin, Thielen, Barr, Cook, Hunter, Smith crowd(see Koivu, Parise, Suter, Dubnyk) one more kick at the can before they blow it all up.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

Well, I don't agree with it, but I can see what they are doing. Giving the Cousin, Thielen, Barr, Cook, Hunter, Smith crowd(see Koivu, Parise, Suter, Dubnyk) one more kick at the can before they blow it all up.

i actually see it as improving our cap issue this year which it saves us 14 mill and allows us to have a good not great qb moving forward. i was fully aboard the trade cousins ship as i dont think he will take us far but his play is better than plenty of others so its ok. allegedly the new HC really likes him and is hoping to unleash him, i will wait to see that but at the very least having the HC like him is better than zimmer disliking him and possibly causing issues.

 

[57special]

i actually see it as improving our cap issue this year which it saves us 14 mill and allows us to have a good not great qb moving forward. i was fully aboard the trade cousins ship as i dont think he will take us far but his play is better than plenty of others so its ok. allegedly the new HC really likes him and is hoping to unleash him, i will wait to see that but at the very least having the HC like him is better than zimmer disliking him and possibly causing issues.

Cousins is just not good enough unless he has a stellar team around him. He needs a vg O line because he isn't mobile or a good improviser, good receivers, and a good RB. That's a big ask for any team, and then, when you realize that the big stars on D are getting older, not better... I just don't see the Vikes winning big.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Cousins is just not good enough unless he has a stellar team around him. He needs a vg O line because he isn't mobile or a good improviser, good receivers, and a good RB. That's a big ask for any team, and then, when you realize that the big stars on D are getting older, not better... I just don't see the Vikes winning big.

This applies to every QB in the league except for maybe 5 or 6.

 

[BlackBusa24]

This applies to every QB in the league except for maybe 5 or 6.

Then maybe they shouldn't pay him like a top five or six quarterback huh?

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Then maybe they shouldn't pay him like a top five or six quarterback huh?

Yeah. I can't wait for the Kellen Mond era to start too.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

Cousins is just not good enough unless he has a stellar team around him. He needs a vg O line because he isn't mobile or a good improviser, good receivers, and a good RB. That's a big ask for any team, and then, when you realize that the big stars on D are getting older, not better... I just don't see the Vikes winning big.

His improv is what gets me. It was joked about that back in 2017 he would of taking us to the superbowl, however if he was our qb over keenum i dont see the minneapolis miracle happening. he checks it down far too often. playing safe is ok but you need to be chucking the rock in tight windows more often than he is willing to.

 

[GuerinUp]

His improv is what gets me. It was joked about that back in 2017 he would of taking us to the superbowl, however if he was our qb over keenum i dont see the minneapolis miracle happening. he checks it down far too often. playing safe is ok but you need to be chucking the rock in tight windows more often than he is willing to.

keenum is trash, was a flash in the pan season.

 

[thestonedkoala]

In other news, The Vikings extend Cousins in a move that makes absolutely no sense.

1) The QB class this year is considered pretty weak. The best QB is from Liberty. There are projects, but a lot of them don't grade out as good as or better than Mond at this point.
2) The QB free agents aren't that great either. Ryan Fitzpatrick? Andy Dalton? Cam Newton? Jamis Winston? Marcus Mariota? Teddy B Pt II? Like if you get rid of Cousins you need to find a replacement.
3) There is a good chance that Minnesota wouldn't get what they wanted for Cousins due to his contract and just what teams think of him. Good, but not great QB that is getting older. Not a big surprise if Minnesota didn't want to give up Cousins for a mid to late 1st and some change.

 

[BlackBusa24]

Yeah. I can't wait for the Kellen Mond era to start too.

What does that have to do with his contract? And you're literally saying that if we got rid of Kirk that the only option would be to start Mond. Get out of here with that nonsense

1. You have no idea if Mond is good or bad at this point... Don't say otherwise he hasn't even had a shot... For all we know he could be the next Tom Brady.
2. If you don't like Mond then we could have always traded for someone else.

I mean just think of the player that we could have for that 10-15 million that he's overpaid... Probably a good lineman huh?

It's that type of attitude that results in mediocrity. Never let good be the enemy of great.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

What does that have to do with his contract? And you're literally saying that if we got rid of Kirk that the only option would be to start Mond. Get out of here with that nonsense

1. You have no idea if Mond is good or bad at this point... Don't say otherwise he hasn't even had a shot... For all we know he could be the next Tom Brady.
2. If you don't like Mond then we could have always traded for someone else.

I mean just think of the player that we could have for that 10-15 million that he's overpaid... Probably a good lineman huh?

It's that type of attitude that results in mediocrity. Never let good be the enemy of great.

I’d give you good odds on that if you’d like.

Minnesota fans have romanticized that Keenum year way too much.

 

[BlackBusa24]

I’d give you good odds on that if you’d like.

Minnesota fans have romanticized that Keenum year way too much.

I mean the odds are greater than 0 right?

And I for one am not trying to romanticize Keenum... It was magic in a bottle. I never said anything about him.

However I did mention that keeping a mediocre quarterback to top five to six cap hit because you were afraid of being poor instead of mediocre is silly. The guy just isn't the player that you want to put the game on when it matters... And to get that kind of money that's what you need to be able to do. Having that sort of cap hit requires you to make up for taking money from the other players on the team.

It's just a matter of value

Edit... Now that you mentioned it I had to look it up. Career playoff records:

Kirk Cousins -1 win, 3 losses
Case Keenum - 1 win, 1 loss

Food for thought when you have to think about what his 30 to 40 million gets you when it's 15% of what you can pay the entire team. The money has to come from somewhere.

 

[Wild11MN]

I've lived through too many years of not winning championships in this state. The Vikings have approximately a 0% chance of winning the Super Bowl with Kirk Cousins. I'm done with 7-10 win seasons and either still missing the playoffs or having no real shot.

Now we get to live through another two years of Cousins and missing the playoffs, while delaying the inevitable rebuild by an extra two years.

Is there a better non-DeShaun Watson QB that's obtainable right now? No, but I don't care. I've turned completely indifferent on the team the past two years. No reason for optimism now. No reason for optimism in the near/intermediate future.

 

[TaLoN]

I mean the odds are greater than 0 right?

And I for one am not trying to romanticize Keenum... It was magic in a bottle. I never said anything about him.

However I did mention that keeping a mediocre quarterback to top five to six cap hit because you were afraid of being poor instead of mediocre is silly. The guy just isn't the player that you want to put the game on when it matters... And to get that kind of money that's what you need to be able to do. Having that sort of cap hit requires you to make up for taking money from the other players on the team.

It's just a matter of value

Edit... Now that you mentioned it I had to look it up. Career playoff records:

Kirk Cousins -1 win, 3 losses
Case Keenum - 1 win, 1 loss

Food for thought when you have to think about what his 30 to 40 million gets you when it's 15% of what you can pay the entire team. The money has to come from somewhere.

And? Stafford was 0-3 in the playoffs prior to this year.

The team around the QB has a huge impact on the QB's success in the playoffs too.

 

[Jesus comma Brodin]

What does that have to do with his contract? And you're literally saying that if we got rid of Kirk that the only option would be to start Mond. Get out of here with that nonsense

1. You have no idea if Mond is good or bad at this point... Don't say otherwise he hasn't even had a shot... For all we know he could be the next Tom Brady.
2. If you don't like Mond then we could have always traded for someone else.

I mean just think of the player that we could have for that 10-15 million that he's overpaid... Probably a good lineman huh?

It's that type of attitude that results in mediocrity. Never let good be the enemy of great.

You couldn’t be more off base with this metric.

The idea that you can pay a Kirk-caliber QB ~$16-$21M is as asinine as comparing Case Keenum to Kirk Cousins in any manner to begin with. Look at the non-entry or bridge deals that around that number and let me know how Kirk compares to any of them aside from Brady.

Next season when his cap goes up to $36M, he’ll be the 7th highest paid QB before the extensions of Murray, Lamar, Stafford, Brady, Carr, and Garrapollo come. 4 of these players will undoubtedly get paid more than him pushing him down to 11th. But you’re saying he should be paid like bottom 10 QB based on?

If we don’t like Mond, we could always trade for someone else?

Who?

Denver overpaid for Wilson by about double, and if you think Carson Wentz is an upgrade or even in the same league as Kirk, your hatred is blinding. If you’re made about the $31M in cap he’s using this year, well you’ll be shocked when you see Watson’s contract.

 

[BlackBusa24]

You couldn’t be more off base with this metric.

The idea that you can pay a Kirk-caliber QB ~$16-$21M is as asinine as comparing Case Keenum to Kirk Cousins in any manner to begin with. Look at the non-entry or bridge deals that around that number and let me know how Kirk compares to any of them aside from Brady.

Next season when his cap goes up to $36M, he’ll be the 7th highest paid QB before the extensions of Murray, Lamar, Stafford, Brady, Carr, and Garrapollo come. 4 of these players will undoubtedly get paid more than him pushing him down to 11th. But you’re saying he should be paid like bottom 10 QB based on?

If we don’t like Mond, we could always trade for someone else?

Who?

Denver overpaid for Wilson by about double, and if you think Carson Wentz is an upgrade or even in the same league as Kirk, your hatred is blinding. If you’re made about the $31M in cap he’s using this year, well you’ll be shocked when you see Watson’s contract.

To me Kirk isn't as good as any of those guys that you mentioned... And I have a hard time believing any of them will get paid more than him.

All the guy does is pad his stats. When the guy literally can't throw a hail mary in bounds because he's afraid of throwing an interception I've seen all I've needed to see. Then he uses those stats to rake over QB desperate teams in contract negotiations... How blind can you really be? Let's just extend Talbot for another 2 years at 10 million while we're at it.

Kirk has done nothing to earn his contracts.

And Russell Wilson's cap hit is what this year? 24 million? He's better for less that's for sure... Probably worth an overpayment at that point

 

[BlackBusa24]

And? Stafford was 0-3 in the playoffs prior to this year.

The team found the QB has a huge impact on the QB's success in the playoffs too.

Just because Stafford won the championship once doesn't mean it's the way to build a team.
The Rams in large part mortgage their future in order to get the supporting cast around Stafford... I don't see the Vikings doing that

If you use that argument you could say that Brad Johnson won a super bowl so might as well just do it that way

 

[Jesus comma Brodin]

To me Kirk isn't as good as any of those guys that you mentioned... And I have a hard time believing any of them will get paid more than him.

All the guy does is pad his stats. When the guy literally can't throw a hail mary in bounds because he's afraid of throwing an interception I've seen all I've needed to see. Then he uses those stats to rake over QB desperate teams in contract negotiations... How blind can you really be? Let's just extend Talbot for another 2 years at 10 million while we're at it.

Kirk has done nothing to earn his contracts.

Well this is straight up bananas.

Projected Extensions for Each (5 sources):

Lamar = $40-$45M
Carr = $40M
Murray = $42-$45M
Stafford = $40M+
Brady (if signs) = $25M
Garrapollo = $27M

You seriously cannot say with a straight face you'd take Jimmy f***ing Garropolo over a guy whose coming off a season with the 4th best Passer Rating in football, 9th best QBR, the same yards/attempt as Dak Prescott and Justin Herbert, all while having 25th ranked pass blocking line and an archaic offensive gameplan. Don't give me the garbage time nonsense either, every single game this season was a 2 possession game with the exception of the Packers game in week 17 that Kirk didn't play in. I am not even that big of a Kirk guy, but this baseless nonsense is ridiculous.

Also, using the Wild's goaltending as a comparison makes ton of sense here

 

[Minnewildsota]

It's anecdotal, but I see Cousins as a Fantasy Football quarterback. He doesn't win the big games (generally speaking) but he puts up large numbers when the games don't matter. I could take it or leave it, but at that price, I'd rather leave it.

 

[thestonedkoala]

Here's a novel idea; maybe they aren't expecting a lot out of this team, but publicly they are going to say the same thing every team does. They think that this team can contend, that they think they can win a Super Bowl.

What are they going to say? We suck, and that we don't think we're going to be in contention?

Extending Cousins helps them maneuver a bit better in cap space. End of story.

They maybe looking at the 2023 draft and the QBs that will end up there and think that even if they have a bad year, they could still win in drafting a guy as good as Herbert or Allen.

 

[TaLoN]

Just because Stafford won the championship once doesn't mean it's the way to build a team.
The Rams in large part mortgage their future in order to get the supporting cast around Stafford... I don't see the Vikings doing that

If you use that argument you could say that Brad Johnson won a super bowl so might as well just do it that way

Way to miss my point completely.

I only said the team surrounding the QB affects playoff performance. Nothing more.

Even Trent Dilfer won a SB. That tells you what playoff record for a QB means... not much.

That doesn't say anything about replicating the Ravens either. It was never a statement on "how to build". Only a statement on the worthlessness of pointing out a QB playoff record.

 

[BlackBusa24]

Way to miss my point completely.

I only said the team surrounding the QB affects playoff performance. Nothing more.

Even Trent Dilfer won a SB. That tells you what playoff record for a QB means... not much.

That doesn't say anything about replicating the Ravens either. It was never a statement on "how to build". Only a statement on the worthlessness of pointing out a QB playoff record.

And it seems you keep missing my point that when you don't get value out of what you pay for at quarterback then you start the rest of the team in a hole and are completely shooting a hole in your own argument about the team around said quarterback and a teams playoff performance

As I have said a couple times now you have to get the money from somewhere

Kirk's contract is pretty much screwing over the Vikings just like the buyouts are affecting the wild... Affecting the amount of talent that you can amass on a team.

The only difference is the wilds management isn't responsible as much for their part in it whereas the new regime of the Vikings pretty much just accepted the status quo of the last regime

 

[thestonedkoala]

Kirk's contract is pretty much screwing over the Vikings just like the buyouts are affecting the wild... Affecting the amount of talent that you can amass on a team.

A) Name a better QB Minnesota can get right now.
B) Explain in detail how Kirk's contract is screwing them over right now and in the future. What free agents is the Vikings skipping over to keep Cousins?
C) Explain in detail your plan on fixing the QB situation when Cousins leaves that gives Minnesota a better opportunity in the future?

 

[BlackBusa24]

A) Name a better QB Minnesota can get right now.
B) Explain in detail how Kirk's contract is screwing them over right now and in the future. What free agents is the Vikings skipping over to keep Cousins?
C) Explain in detail your plan on fixing the QB situation when Cousins leaves that gives Minnesota a better opportunity in the future?

A) better overall or better value? My entire argument has been all about value.
B) I mean math is pretty simple... The more you spend on player x the less you will have for the rest of the team.
C) I don't recall ever saying I had a plan but I suppose if I were to come up with one on the spot it would probably involve trying to find a young quarterback in the draft. The easiest and most replicatable means of success is to have a stellar team and a quarterback on his rookie contract. The team just has so many holes that a high priced quarterback at this point just isn't the solution. A new coach coming in isn't going to solve all that like some would want to believe.

And before anyone starts about this draft being weak... People said the same thing about the 2017 draft and that one turned out pretty good. I myself like Matt corral quite a bit. Could we swing and miss? yes... But the alternative is to be mediocre... And mediocre very rarely wins championships. I would have thought most of us would have learned that lesson with the wild over the last 10 years or whatever it's been.

 

[thestonedkoala]

A) better overall or better value? My entire argument has been all about value.
B) I mean math is pretty simple... The more you spend on player x the less you will have for the rest of the team.
C) I don't recall ever saying I had a plan but I suppose if I were to come up with one on the spot it would probably involve trying to find a young quarterback in the draft. The team just has so many holes that a high priced quarterback at this point just isn't the solution. A new coach coming in isn't going to solve all that like some would want to believe.

And before anyone starts about this draft being weak... People said the same thing about the 2017 draft and that one turned out pretty good. I myself like Matt corral quite a bit. Could we submit swing and miss? yes... But the alternative is to be mediocre... And mediocre very rarely wins championships. I would have thought most of this would have learned that lesson with the wild over the last 10 years or whatever it's been

A) Either or
B) Okay, who should they be spending money on that they aren't?
C) 2017 had Trubisky, Mahomes, Watson, Kizer, Webb, Beathard, Dobbs, Peterman, Kaaya, Kelly...yeah other than Mahomes it was a pretty weak QB draft. Watson may end up being good, but it was a weak draft overall. Also the 2017 said that it's lacking elite talent and really Mahomes turned out to be a elite, however, there was a LOT of questions over his potential and he had to sit behind Smith for a year before he was ready. But the 2017 after Watson was pretty bad.

The alternative is to have a stop gap between 2022 and 2023 when the Vikings could end up with a top 10 pick and a much deeper QB class. CJ Stroud, Bryce Young, Spencer Rattler, just off the top of my head. There are so many good QBs in next year's draft.