Niinimaa out of Team Finland

[Pepper]

Fact's remain: Niinimaa quit on his TEAM-MATES, not on Summanen.

No, you got it exactly wrong.

Niinimaa quit on Summanen, NOT his teammates. Niinimaa is the last person in the team to quit his teammates as his seasons in Oilers proved.

Once again, let me quote Selänne "the team stands behind Janne's decision"

Facts all speak against Summanen on this one.

 

[Wondercarrot]

Sure the facts back him up. He hates the coach so he quit, and in doing so he made the team weaker and left it open for further distraction.
He may have quit on his coach but he let down his teamates who are obviously better teamates than he is by "standing by Janne's decision"

He didn't know Summanen was going to be the coach when he accepted to play??
Niinimaa is a quitter and a baby.

 

[Toonces]

Niinimaa quit on Summanen, NOT his teammates. Niinimaa is the last person in the team to quit his teammates as his seasons in Oilers proved.

Sounds to me like he quit on both.

 

[Mogo]

Niinimaa sucks!! Good riddance he is gone. He always makes awful turnovers, poor decisions .. now we actually might have a chance to win.... and he likes to score alot own goals over the years at international level and NHL

 

[Mogo]

Mostly because Karalahti is actually a better player than Niinimaa though not very much imo.QUOTE]

HA!!! LMAO. I would take Niinimaa when he is on his game over any Finnsih Dman except for Pitkanen (but this is based on upside, not current level of play). Yes Niinimaa had an off year by his standards, but calling Karalahti a BETTER PLAYER is laughable.

Karalahti is 10x better than Niinimaa

 

[Dale]

Sure the facts back him up. He hates the coach so he quit, and in doing so he made the team weaker and left it open for further distraction.
He may have quit on his coach but he let down his teamates who are obviously better teamates than he is by "standing by Janne's decision"

He didn't know Summanen was going to be the coach when he accepted to play??
Niinimaa is a quitter and a baby.

CBC hockey commentators spoke to the players in the dressing room. The said it became too personal and Summanen crossed the line. They also said that Niinimaa did the right thing.

Yes Niinimaa knew who was coaching and knew Summanen was the reason he wasn't on the team initially which is why he did not accept the invitation immediately.Who wants to play for a coach who doesn't want you there. He was talked into it, perhaps by other members of team Finland. That doesn't mean he expected abuse by the coach-the players saying Summanen "crossed the line" suggests that. It sounded like the player's weren't just being "good teamates" but rather truely believed that Niinimaa did the only thing he could do.

As season ticket holders for the Oilers, I've watched Janne for many years and the LAST thing he is, is a quitter and a baby. I've watched him play games in terrible pain and still give 100% of what he could.He wanted to be on the ice helping his team no matter what and I'm sure it's more so with his own counties team. Perhaps Summanen threatened not to play him at all which makes him leaving the team a moot point. Not playing, yet sitting in the dressing room enraged would have been more detrimental to the team than leaving. It still comes back to Summanen who crossed the line.

I'm sure some of the posters here who are calling Niinimaa a "quitter" have a line that could be crossed. Every person should have this or they're not much of a person.

 

[psycho_dad*]

Summanen was a boarderline mental case as a player and on his first years as coach. I was so shocked when that sociopath got selected to be head coach of team Finland. He has a history of strangling journalists, threatening and insulting finnish hockey association and players...

But he gets the job done!


If he doesnt continue, let it be Rautakorpi who also puts the hate in the opponents and the wins on the table.

 

[(lone)Yashinfan#79]

i've long been a fan of Niinimaa's so this is a bit of a disappointment... the fact that Finland barely won the game v. Germany (a game they should have won handily based upon their prior three efforts) speaks volumes of how this event has affected their dressing room.

i'll have to play devil's advocate on this one, however; i recall an interview that took place the same day/2-day span when Niinimaa first got dealt to NYI and he seemed a bit sour with how Edmonton management handled the transaction, i don't recall the quote verbatim, but something to the effect that he was literally the last one to know about the trade and that NYI wants him and Edmonton obviously didn't.
in hindsight, that was just another Lowe salary dump (and one where he actually netted something substantial in return).

so are we to believe that Niinimaa is just snakebit and the team's coach is unreasonable, or is he a bit of a whiner?

i tend to believe the former because the coach sounds like a psychotic and i have a pretty marginal opinion of Kevin Lowe in a GM chair.

 

[broman]

No, you got it exactly wrong.

Niinimaa quit on Summanen, NOT his teammates. Niinimaa is the last person in the team to quit his teammates as his seasons in Oilers proved.

Once again, let me quote Selänne "the team stands behind Janne's decision"

Facts all speak against Summanen on this one.

We are not exactly making progress here as everyone's firmly behind their own opinions, but let me try and rephrase one more time. Yes, Niinimaa may have initially wanted to quit on Summanen, but the end result was that he hurt the team badly. No show of sympathy or camaraderie from Selanne or others could change that. Notice by the way that there's a marked difference between standing behind Janne, and walking out together with him.

Let's see where we're at. Just as the going is getting tough, we have a full-blown media frenzy underway. Yellow press is screaming crisis. The team is clearly shaken, so much was evident last night. There's talk of sacking the coach who may be on the verge of leading the team all the way to final and beyond. Players and federation chairman are caught in a web of misquoted statements blown out of all proportions.

All this comes down to a bad call by a single player. No matter who came out with the first PR release, no matter if coach Summanen is a certified case who feeds on the blood of unborn babies, no matter if there are other players who are not 100% satisfied with their role in the team or the way things are going. If Janne hadn't taken the step and crossed the line, we wouldn't be here. The conflicts may have been inevitable, but turning them into public spectacle and distraction certainly wasn't.

What some people, and Janne in particular, fail to grasp is that this is not some boys club, or another day at the office, or a holiday in the sun, or a chance of personal gratification. This is war, plain and simple. The last one standing wins it all for his team. There's no room for second thoughts or individual egos in the heat of the battle. If you don't see that, you shouldn't be in the team.

Yes, there are unpleasant people out there, some in high positions. Yes, there are moments when emotions run too high, when people say things that shouldn't have been said. Yes, it happens that you don't get the credit that you deserve, or vice versa you get to take the rap for something that wasn't entirely up to you. Such is life. You get over it and focus on what matters. If you are a professional, that is.

If Janne is half the man we make him out to be, he would come out one more time and do his share of damage control. He would say he's sorry for all the fuss (mind you, nobody's saying he should apologize for the real issues that remain hidden for the moment), and that he's rooting for the boys and coach Summanen to go all the way. He could even say he's thankful for the support he's got, but it's time to put all that behind and focus on the task at hand. That would show character.

 

[Pepper]

There are some real ugly details behind all this which will be revealed after the tournament, hockey insiders know these details but don't dare to come public because Kummola has made it clear that the one who leaks it before tournament ends will no longer have anything to do in finnish hockey circles (and unfortunately he has the power to do that).

I've spoken with a brother of Team Finland player yesterday and the rumors of lockerroom chaos are true, there were some really heated arguments between several players and coach Summanen with players really giving it to Summanen for driving Niinimaa away with some really ugly personal remarks which had absolutely nothing to do with Janne's performance, mistakes or hockey in general. Only the diplomacy of Jari Kurri has held the team together, for now atleast.

Some of you Summanen-fanboys will probably have to find a new idol after all this comes out in public.

 

[broman]

The real Selanne quote follows (source: http://www.mtv3.fi):

I do understand Janne's situation, the team stands behind his decision. This has not been easy, but the situation was just so to that the relationship between Janne and the coach wasn't what it could have been.

Myself I can say that if I hadn't been on a salary last season [at Avalanche], I would have walked. This is how it goes; just as in any job, sometimes you get problems with personal chemistry.

Saku Koivu continues:

(MTV3) If one or two players and the coaching team end up like this, that doesn't mean that everybody else would feel the same. The players still give their full support to the coaching team and stand behind them. What happens after the tournament, that is difficult for me to comment on. Thankfully that is not the players' job.

Miikka Kiprusoff:

(MTV3) We didn't expect any distracting factors [in the game]. We are professionals.

Olli Jokinen:

(MTV3) I have worked with all kinds of coaches. I get along with everyone. I have worked under Mike Keenan as well. Without Kipper we could have been in trouble. We are after success here for sure.

Federation chairman Kummola:

(MTV3) Summanen has our full confidence at this moment. We are in this together now. When we hired Summanen, we knew that at times he would go too far. But he's an extremely good, fired-up coach who puts himself on the line - and because of that sometimes the fuse will burn.

I don't want to discuss this mess any further. We have surely had enough of that. We are not going to discuss this in media's terms. The play has become quite rough. Usually there's always one sensationalist paper writing trash while the tournament is under way, trying to create confusion. This is not patriotic, that's for sure.

Coach Summanen:

(MTV3) Something like this goes to prove that this is big thing for everyone, for players and trainers. This is an extreme sport, we are all running at the limit. It goes to show who's got what it takes. Some fall through as time goes by.

(YLE) It was close that Niinimaa would have ended in the stands as early as during the trip to Cologne. What matters the most is that everyone plays for the team. It is not my habit to issue free passes to anyone. It is my time to come out into the public once this tournament is over. I will be glad to talk things over.

And finally, Janne Niinimaa:

(MTV3) Janne doesn't yet want to go into details in public, but emphasizes he can take even hard criticism.

(Iltalehti) Meeting a journalist over a pint of beer in a Helsinki pub, Janne states he has no regrets. I still believe I made the right choice.

For now I don't want to talk any more about this. We should let the boys to do the job. I really hope the team will be succesful.

 

[broman]

There are some real ugly details behind all this which will be revealed after the tournament, hockey insiders know these details but don't dare to come public because Kummola has made it clear that the one who leaks it before tournament ends will no longer have anything to do in finnish hockey circles (and unfortunately he has the power to do that).

I've spoken with a brother of Team Finland player yesterday and the rumors of lockerroom chaos are true, there were some really heated arguments between several players and coach Summanen with players really giving it to Summanen for driving Niinimaa away with some really ugly personal remarks which had absolutely nothing to do with Janne's performance, mistakes or hockey in general. Only the diplomacy of Jari Kurri has held the team together, for now atleast.

Some of you Summanen-fanboys will probably have to find a new idol after all this comes out in public.

Well, it's sure fun to drop ominous hints and rely on anonymous sources in impressively high places, but as long as you don't have anything concrete to say, you are not really contributing. You can't take anonymous rumours and call them uncontested facts.

And where exactly are these "fanboys"? Myself I have been arguing with you that Janne didn't exactly act too clever and in the best interests of the team, end of story. Also, I have tried to point out that we have a tournament under way, which should take precedence here. Nowhere in my posts will you find anything suggesting that Summanen is right in everything he does, far from it. But as it is, he happens to be the head coach of the team we all support to the end, I hope.

Edit: rounded off some of the rough edges, no use heating up any more controversy

 

[Pepper]

Well, it's sure fun to drop ominous hints and rely on anonymous sources in impressively high places, but as long as you don't have anything concrete to say, you are not really contributing. You can't take anonymous rumours and call them uncontested facts.

Like I said the details will come out eventually, right now everybody is keeping their mouths shut but I expect the truth will come out eventually, probably within 1-2 weeks after the games. And they are not anonymous rumors to me, it's direct quotes & information from sources extremely close to the team. Like I said, Summanen went grossly out of line with his very personal comments which had nothing to do with hockey and it would have been fine had it been an isolated incident but the same stuff has been happening since WCh 2003 so I guess this was the straw that broke camel's back.

You seem to like give the impression that you're well informed and have access to information beyond headlines & public rumors, why don't you go ask your sources what the deal is?

And where exactly are these "fanboys"? Myself I have been arguing with you that Janne didn't exactly act too clever and in the best interests of the team, end of story. Also, I have tried to point out that we have a tournament under way, which should take precedence here.

Janne couldn't work with Summanen - had he stayed the argument with Summanen would have poisoned the whole lockerroom. Janne is the first to answer the call to play for Team Suomi and walking away from the national team was probably extreme hard decision for him but he did because he didn't want to compromise the team with his personal problems with Summanen.

But don't worry, the truth will come out eventually and you will most likely change your tune too.

 

[broman]

You seem to like give the impression that you're well informed and have access to information beyond headlines & public rumors, why don't you go ask your sources what the deal is?

On the contrary, I am relying solely on public news sources. I have been around and like to connect the dots myself to come up with conclusions of my own, but I try to tread safely so as not to reach into anything unreasonable. Sometimes more successfully than others.

Janne couldn't work with Summanen - had he stayed the argument with Summanen would have poisoned the whole lockerroom.

This is getting back to the keep the mouth shut -argument, but Janne did have several alternatives. He could have bitten his lip, taken the abuse no matter how unreasonable it may have been, and settled for a place at the end of the bench. Happens in NHL all the time. After the tournament he would have had plenty of opportunities to bring up his side of the story. Or if it got really, really, really bad, he could have told Summanen in private to leave him out of the playing 20 and watched the rest of the tournament from the stands. It happens, someone's got to sit and he was the backup to begin with, so no big deal.

Instead he chose to make a scene and distance himself publicly from Summanen and the team, which directly led to the media circus we're in now and put the rest of the players in an immensely difficult spot under the spotlight. You may call it honest, I call it destructive. It very nearly cost us a place in the semis, and it remains to be seen how it affects the team later on. If Janne didn't see the storm coming as a direct consequence of his choice, he was stupid at worst and naive at best. Yes, Summanen was at fault too but you can't change the coach halfway through a tournament. If something's got to give, it's the player.

Honestly, I am really looking forward to hearing what these "really ugly details" are. Sure I can understand that a person of Summanen's temper and demeanor can really get under your skin with some serious abuse, but still. We are talking World Cup of Hockey here, the best of the best assembling, playoffs about to get started, a crucial moment if anything, the entire country holding its breath. It had really better be something special, something worthy of a book deal and a defamation lawsuit that shadows the STT case a few years back. "My d*** is bigger than yours" just won't do.

What also bugs me is how most everybody in Finland seems to think Janne is some kind of an angel. First of all, he was discontent from day one and even came out saying it out loud right before the tournament (in Kaleva newspaper, they say). Great timing, great attitude. Then there's his behaviour that sparked this mess, as I have painstakingly tried to point out.

Now he's meeting with reporters in pubs just off chance, making it very clear he's got no regrets and positively made the right choice, but of course he doesn't want to stir the pot and talk about this now. Well Einstein, you just did. The same with MTV3, yes I sure can take all the criticism in the world but no, of course I don't want talk about this but will allow the guys to focus on the game. All I can say is, just cause he's been a great guy before doesn't mean he's incapable of making a mistake now.

I have never been a Kummola fan (who has?) but I will raise my hat to him for his remarks in this morning's Helsingin Sanomat newspaper, where he made it clear what's most annoying is that something like this should come up smack in the middle of the tournament, and that the media would have such a field day with it. Yes he made it clear Summanen's not the easiest fellow to hang around with, however he also stated quite rightly that Janne's behaviour is unacceptable, how blame goes both ways.

Edit: a couple of typos

 

[Pepper]

Well by your admission who have no clue what's the word inside the hockey circles.

Trust me, you wouldn't be defending Summanen if you had heard the same things as I have.

Kummola is in full damage control -mode, there's no way he could have said anything else no matter what he thought of the situation. Same with Koivu, they simply had to say Summanen has full support, anything else and Team Finland could have stayed in Europe and give USA/Rus a freeride to finals.

But we should simply wait and see.

 

[broman]

Well by your admission who have no clue what's the word inside the hockey circles.

Trust me, you wouldn't be defending Summanen if you had heard the same things as I have.

Trust me, if you say "hockey circles" one more time I will scream... I don't know what kind of kicks you are getting from your supposed access to the holiest of the holy, but it sure ain't impressing anyone.

I don't know if I should draw a picture or something, I have gone through this so many times. I am not on a mission to defend Summanen. I just want to see Team Finland do well. What I have seen from Niinimaa so far hasn't helped that cause one bit, and I am not afraid to say it out loud. The same goes for your so-called "evidence". It sure won't help the team in the semis. Just about as interesting as watching paint dry.

If all we're after is hindsight and "told you so" then sure, heck yeah let's savor the moment. The open season is just about to begin, and it's never too early to start with the gloom and doom. In no time the World Cup will be over, Finland will have met its just fate considering the disastrous no-good excuse of a coach we've been cursed with, and we'll all be dancing around the bonfire while Prince of Evil aka Summanen is burning.

Call me old-fashioned but I am more interested in hockey though.

 

[Shack]

Trust me, you wouldn't be defending Summanen if you had heard the same things as I have.

This is getting interesting. I would like to hear what you've heard. Why not to tell the whole story now that you've started.

 

[Wondercarrot]

Yeah lets hear it. I want to know what "hockey circles" are saying happened.

 

[kjri]

Trust me, if you say "hockey circles" one more time I will scream... I don't know what kind of kicks you are getting from your supposed access to the holiest of the holy, but it sure ain't impressing anyone.

I don't know if I should draw a picture or something, I have gone through this so many times. I am not on a mission to defend Summanen. I just want to see Team Finland do well. What I have seen from Niinimaa so far hasn't helped that cause one bit, and I am not afraid to say it out loud. The same goes for your so-called "evidence". It sure won't help the team in the semis. Just about as interesting as watching paint dry.

If all we're after is hindsight and "told you so" then sure, heck yeah let's savor the moment. The open season is just about to begin, and it's never too early to start with the gloom and doom. In no time the World Cup will be over, Finland will have met its just fate considering the disastrous no-good excuse of a coach we've been cursed with, and we'll all be dancing around the bonfire while Prince of Evil aka Summanen is burning.

Call me old-fashioned but I am more interested in hockey though.

If Summanen resorts to personal attacks on Niinimaa, he has not helped the team either. Let's now wait until the tournament is over and see what is this all about. Anyway, i don't believe Niinimaa walks out without reason. Summanen crossed the line and what the line is remains to be seen.

 

[CREW99AW]

Niinimaa wasn't the only Finnish player thinking about leaving.


http://www.wch04.com/countries/fin/notebook090604.html

Twenty hours later, defenseman Janne Niinimaa had left the team, citing "chemistry problems" with the coach as the reason and 15 hours from that, the rumour around the press center was Summanen might not even show up behind the bench and that there was a revolt in the making on the Finnish team, with several players ready to call it quits.

 

[broman]

Niinimaa wasn't the only Finnish player thinking about leaving.

I reckon they are referring to the rumour that Aamulehti newspaper started. I haven't read it but some (Pepper?) say the three were named as well, this being Numminen, Nieminen and Lydman. But it is obviously not based on any player quotes.

The last time Numminen spoke up, he was calling the whole affair regrettable. He did say the team was behind Summanen and Niinimaa both, whatever that may amount to. It's a sweet mess all right. I wish nothing but that they could put the thing behind them, but honestly I am not sure if they can.

 

[broman]

If Summanen resorts to personal attacks on Niinimaa, he has not helped the team either. Let's now wait until the tournament is over and see what is this all about. Anyway, i don't believe Niinimaa walks out without reason. Summanen crossed the line and what the line is remains to be seen.

Yes, but as I pointed out before, if you have a conflict between the coach and the player, it has to be the player who gives in. There's no other alternative halfway through a major tournament. It's a different story any other time of the year, then we can all sit down and discuss the situation, but not now.

Nobody's saying Summanen doesn't share some of the blame. Everyone agrees he's got a flaring temper and people skills that can be described as lacking to say the least. What's being said (well, I am saying anyway) is that Janne's personal decision and its timing were the worst you can imagine.

No matter how personal Summanen has got, no matter what insults or profanities he's come up with, Janne should have bitten the bullet, if only for the good of the team, and showed reserve. Be a bigger man than Summanen, in a word. He didn't, and the resulting mess exploded on everyone's face. That's the problem I myself am having a hard time with.

Right now I couldn't care less what happens after the tournament. The people can crucify Summanen for his sins, I don't care. What I would like to have seen is the team acting as one, for one common goal as long as we are in the tournament. Well they didn't, and it's p******* me off. Sure you can say they're only human, but that doesn't stop me from expecting more from them.

 

[Pepper]

I reckon they are referring to the rumour that Aamulehti newspaper started. I haven't read it but some (Pepper?) say the three were named as well, this being Numminen, Nieminen and Lydman. But it is obviously not based on any player quotes.

I really have to ask you to

1) start reading my posts

and

2) stop putting words to my mouth.

I did NOT name any of the other players who were close to quit the team too, I said that Aamulehti has very good connections to several Tampere-based players which are those you mentioned.

And the players won't come public with the real story until the tournament is over, I thought that much is obvious to everyone. That's why Janne is not commenting the issue in any way other than saying the exact same thing as the official press-release by finnish team.

Selänne is the only one who has voiced something even remotely close to a real opinion (instead of the normal PR-cliches) and it pretty much speaks volumes about the situation.

And I won't go in to details about the things Summanen spewed at several players, especially at Niinimaa, out of respect to my sources who want to keep details out of public until the games are over, they agreed that in a players-only meeting late on sunday evening. And if you think that source is some fringe player who gets little/no icetime, well think again, it's one of the cornerstones of that team.

Let's just say that physical confortation wasn't far and Kurri was the person who managed to solve the situation, the rest will come out later.

And no, I'm not gonna be here with a "I told you so" -attitude, this whole affair is way too depressing for that.

 

[CREW99AW]

I reckon they are referring to the rumour that Aamulehti newspaper started. I haven't read it but some (Pepper?) say the three were named as well, this being Numminen, Nieminen and Lydman. But it is obviously not based on any player quotes.

The last time Numminen spoke up, he was calling the whole affair regrettable. He did say the team was behind Summanen and Niinimaa both, whatever that may amount to. It's a sweet mess all right. I wish nothing but that they could put the thing behind them, but honestly I am not sure if they can.

it seems simple enough for the media to ask the players,after the tournament ends,if they considered leaving in the middle of the tournament?Were there discussions among some players about just walking out?

The players will either deny it or confirm it.

 

[broman]

I really have to ask you to

1) start reading my posts

and

2) stop putting words to my mouth.

I did NOT name any of the other players who were close to quit the team too, I said that Aamulehti has very good connections to several Tampere-based players which are those you mentioned.

Oh boy, here we go again. OK, here are the exact quotes from Pepper:

"If the Aamulehti story is true, 3 other finnish players are close to leaving the team as well. Poor game against Germany and this whole thing will explode like a nuclear bomb."

And in the next post:

"They are still on the team but very close to leaving it and that will show in their performance if true. Aamulehti is very close to certain Tampere-region players (Numminen, Nieminen, Lydman) and they are not your usual yellow-press rumormongers unlike papers like Veikkaaja or Urheilulehti."

Notice the symmetry: three and three. If that was unintentional, here's a simple rule for the future. If you don't know any names, don't name any names. You don't get any words in your mouth. We'll all be spared from lots of trouble.

I have read your posts all right. Here's a quick summary. Summanen's an evil psychopath. Nobody else has a clue cause only you have friends in hockey circles. Broman is stupid for disagreeing. Everyone close to the team is lying through their teeth to disguise their unrelenting hatred towards Summanen. Niinimaa is clean of all guilt cause he was such a decent guy at Oilers. Let's just wait and see.

Yes I have read them, and I can't say like I gained anything much. What more can I do?