Player Discussion Nick Suzuki Part 11

[Benstheman]

Crazy thing about Suzuki is, from all forwards in the NHL, only Rantanen has played more minutes than him in the last 2 seasons.

Another player who plays a lot of minute and is imo underrated, is JT Miller. JT Miller was 26 years old when he became a PPG player in the league. Suzuki, whos about the same kind of player as Miller, is only 24 years old.

Ability is there. Consistency has not. We’ll see. But since the all star break he’s been awesome. Even in games where he hasn’t scored.


His analytics are interesting. Raw numbers don’t seem great but th team sucks. His relational numbers are good but not in line with previous Selke winners. But his raw numbers will improve as the team does.

Agreed.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

This one with a 90% Suzuki vote?

Suzuki vs Caufield - Pick one to build with

The Habs finally have a couple of great up and coming offensive players coming up. Suzuki and Caufield are both exciting young players. This debate has popped up in a player discussion thread and I thought it was an interesting enough discussion to have its own thread. So, if you had to...

forums.hfboards.com

Although this one is even more lopsided …
Suzuki: 65 votes
CC: 1 vote

Suzuki or Caufield to start a franchise?

Some Habs fans think Caufield is more valuable to the team than Suzuki so this is just to get an out-of-town opinion on the matter.

forums.hfboards.com

It will stay that way until CC actually puts up 40-50 in a single season. People on the boards aren’t aware that he’s done 48 in 82 because it’s split over two years. For the record, I maintain my belief CC has much better upside. 48 in 82 out of the gate is crazy good. So YES I still think he’s the better player going forward. But not this season.

However, if he does a sub 9 percent shooting percentage next year, then I’ll re-evaluate his value. The underlying numbers are there for him to be an elite scorer. It only matters though if you’re actually putting the puck in the net. One year can be ignored. If it happens next season though, maybe he’s not as good as his history and underlying numbers.

But I’ll say this, we’d better hope he’s a 40 goal guy next year and going forward. Because if he’s not, that’s a huge blow for our hopes. His goalscoring ability is key to us becoming contenders down the road. Maybe he’s the second coming of Chris Higgins but we’d better hope not.

Suzuki actually playing like a first line center is also key because it makes us less dependent on finding one. My big worry is if Dach can’t stay healthy though. Because right now Suzuki is all we have so we may need another one regardless.

 

[Rapala]

Ability is there. Consistency has not. We’ll see. But since the all star break he’s been awesome. Even in games where he hasn’t scored.


His analytics are interesting. Raw numbers don’t seem great but th team sucks. His relational numbers are good but not in line with previous Selke winners. But his raw numbers will improve as the team does.

I'm sorry man but you do realize he's been our most consistent player ever since he put on his Habs Jersey.
Name me one player who's been more consistent...
You can't because there isn't one.

I've come to the conclusion he's not your cup of tea because he's not "Elite" which is fine but keep it factual.
The one thing Suzuki has shown is consistency his numbers don't lie.
Go ahead and pick your segments of games here and there while the majority of us look at his entire body of work.

I mean what haven't we thrown on this Kid's plate.
At one point you will have to admit your stance last summer was off to put it mildly.

But feel free to continue on with your narrative Suzuki will continue to prove you wrong.
This player is still improving and I'd be curious to see how many people don't think that is the case.

 

[Deleted member 257557]

I'm sorry man but you do realize he's been our most consistent player ever since he put on his Habs Jersey.
Name me one player who's been more consistent...
You can't because there isn't one.

I've come to the conclusion he's not your cup of tea because he's not "Elite" which is fine but keep it factual.
The one thing Suzuki has shown is consistency his numbers don't lie.
Go ahead and pick your segments of games here and there while the majority of us look at his entire body of work.

I mean what haven't we thrown on this Kid's plate.
At one point you will have to admit your stance last summer was off to put it mildly.

But feel free to continue on with your narrative Suzuki will continue to prove you wrong.
This player is still improving and I'd be curious to see how many people don't think that is the case.

He’s easily the hab best player, I love him, is a 1st line canter and I hope habs can eventually build a competitive team around him.

He’s also had long slumps, it’s not false although more than understandable.

 

[Ozmodiar]

I'm sorry man but you do realize he's been our most consistent player ever since he put on his Habs Jersey.
Name me one player who's been more consistent...
You can't because there isn't one.

I've come to the conclusion he's not your cup of tea because he's not "Elite" which is fine but keep it factual.
The one thing Suzuki has shown is consistency his numbers don't lie.
Go ahead and pick your segments of games here and there while the majority of us look at his entire body of work.

I mean what haven't we thrown on this Kid's plate.
At one point you will have to admit your stance last summer was off to put it mildly.

But feel free to continue on with your narrative Suzuki will continue to prove you wrong.
This player is still improving and I'd be curious to see how many people don't think that is the case.

He’s been the team’s only constant over the last few seasons.

The consistency is remarkable considering the team’s state of flux. 60+ points per season pace since his sophomore season, consistent pts/60, PK duties, captaincy, team “iron man” streak.

In last 3 years, seasons played without missing a game:
Suzuki: 3
KK: 1
Rest of team: 0

The team leans on him so much because of his consistency. They know what they’re getting with him - availability, production, smart hockey, effort, leadership. * * he is the only Hab who fits this model of consistency * *

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I'm sorry man but you do realize he's been our most consistent player ever since he put on his Habs Jersey.
Name me one player who's been more consistent...
You can't because there isn't one.

Apart from that 82 game stretch from Caufield, you’re right. And I’d also agree he’s been our best player this year.

I'm sorr
I've come to the conclusion he's not your cup of tea because he's not "Elite" which is fine but keep it factual.
The one thing Suzuki has shown is consistency his numbers don't lie.
Go ahead and pick your segments of games here and there while the majority of us look at his entire body of work.

What do you mean he’s not my cup of tea?
I’ve ALWAYS liked Suzuki. Since he was with Guelph actually. Took my son to a few of his games there. Same with Koivu. How could you not like him? That doesn’t mean I’m going to go along with the idea that they’re great number one centers. For Nick it’s still in flux but Koivu is a great comparison. For years I supposedly ‘hated’ him too.

I mean what haven't we thrown on this Kid's plate.
At one point you will have to admit your stance last summer was off to put it mildly.

My stance hasn’t changed.

I’ve said Nick Suzuki has played like a bottom tier first line center for most of his career. I’ve said he shown that he can play better and has played like a solid number one in stretches. None of that has changed. I also said that I believe CC has much greater potential- and when I said this there was an onslaught of shit aimed my way for ‘hating’ Nick Suzuki. Btw, I still believe this. And for the team’s sake I hope I’m right. If CC isn’t the elite sniper I hoped he was then I’m far less optimistic about our future going forward.

I don’t hate Nick Suzuki. But I’m not going to sit here and have people tell me that he’s ‘always’ played like this. No he hasn’t. He’s done it in stretches. Last year to start the year and this year after the all star break. THAT version of Suzuki is killer. And I hope that he consistently plays this way going forward. Feel free to look at my history, I’ve always believed he has another gear. His issue is consistency.

But feel free to continue on with your narrative Suzuki will continue to prove you wrong.
This player is still improving and I'd be curious to see how many people don't think that is the case.

Mid January he was on pace for 65 points. Played his usual solid game. The guy post all star game has been an animal. As good as he’s ever played. Nothing would make me happier than to see that continue.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

It will stay that way until CC actually puts up 40-50 in a single season. People on the boards aren’t aware that he’s done 48 in 82 because it’s split over two years. For the record, I maintain my belief CC has much better upside. 48 in 82 out of the gate is crazy good. So YES I still think he’s the better player going forward. But not this season.

However, if he does a sub 9 percent shooting percentage next year, then I’ll re-evaluate his value. The underlying numbers are there for him to be an elite scorer. It only matters though if you’re actually putting the puck in the net. One year can be ignored. If it happens next season though, maybe he’s not as good as his history and underlying numbers.

But I’ll say this, we’d better hope he’s a 40 goal guy next year and going forward. Because if he’s not, that’s a huge blow for our hopes. His goalscoring ability is key to us becoming contenders down the road. Maybe he’s the second coming of Chris Higgins but we’d better hope not.

Suzuki actually playing like a first line center is also key because it makes us less dependent on finding one. My big worry is if Dach can’t stay healthy though. Because right now Suzuki is all we have so we may need another one regardless.

He has much better upside than a ppg, two way, center man? I’m big on Cole too, I think he’s a perennial 40g guy with the occasional 50g season, but he will never impact the game in as many ways as Suzuki does.

There’s almost no chance CC can become more impactful than Nick.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

He has much better upside than a ppg, two way center man? I’m big on Cole too, I think he’s a perennial 40g guy with the occasional 50g season, but he will never impact the game in as many ways as Suzuki does.

There’s almost no chance CC can become more impactful than Nick.

Strongly disagree. Goals are the most valuable skill a player can have. They are rare and harder to replace. If you’ve got a top five goal scorer, you hang into him for dear life. You can find plenty of players to feed him the pick.

We haven’t had a top five goal scorer since Richer or Lafleur.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Strongly disagree. Goals are the most valuable skill a player can have. They are rare and harder to replace. If you’ve got a top five goal scorer, you hang into him for dear life. You can find plenty of players to feed him the pick.

We haven’t had a top five goal scorer since Richer or Lafleur.

Ovechkin must be >> than Crosby then, in your eyes. Try to be consistent in your evaluations. Something tells me you don’t believe this. You only use the goals are most difficult to replace argument when it’s NZ vs CC . Goals are not necessarily the most difficult to replace.

Michael Ryder says hello, his 30 goal seasons never elevated his value much because he stunk everywhere else. There are all kinds of uni dimensional goal scorers littered throughout history that would find themselves ranked behind more complete players. Nick is the real deal and only 24. Enjoy it, or don’t. I love Cole too and believe as a goal scorer he will be very good, but he won’t be blowing Nick Suzuki away with his “much greater” upside. There’s virtually no chance of that.

 

[Rapala]

Apart from that 82 game stretch from Caufield, you’re right. And I’d also agree he’s been our best player this year.

Oh yeah that cobbled together 82 games.
You tell me how many more points Caufield put up than Nick in that stretch and my guess is it's actually less.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Ovechkin must be >> than Crosby then, in your eyes. Try to be consistent in your evaluations. Something tells me you don’t believe this. You only use the goals are most difficult to replace argument when it’s NZ vs CC . Goals are not necessarily the most difficult to replace.

Michael Ryder says hello, his 30 goal seasons never elevated his value much because he stunk everywhere else. There are all kinds of uni dimensional goal scorers littered throughout history that would find themselves ranked behind more complete players. Nick is the real deal and only 24. Enjoy it, or don’t. I love Cole too and believe as a goal scorer he will be very good, but he won’t be blowing Nick Suzuki away with his “much greater” upside. There’s virtually no chance of that.

I almost always value the goal scorer. Crosby and Ovechkin are in the same class of player. But that’s because Crosby himself has won numerous scoring titles and a Richard and puts up a fair number of goals while leading the league in points. It’s not like comparing Adam Oates vs Brett Hull. And in that case, Oates was a better player in every conceivable way but one… goalscoring. You’ll notice that Hull went into the HOF first and is ranked much higher. Adam Oates btw had more points in the 90s than anyone not named Gretzky. As for Crosby vs OV, OV will probably be regarded as being better too.

Bossy’s ranked higher than Trottier. Richard is generally ranked higher than Beliveau….

As for Michael Ryder, there’s a big difference between 30 goals vs 50. He was a solid second liner through and through.

And yes, elite goalscorers are the most difficult thing to replace. Even on our club right now we’ve got Dach who’d fill in fine as a solid two way centre. You can find that kind of talent elsewhere.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Oh yeah that cobbled together 82 games.
You tell me how many more points Caufield put up than Nick in that stretch and my guess is it's actually less.

It’s the back half of rookie year. Apples and oranges.

And no, it’s not cobbled together. It’s a full 82 game stretch from a player who has fewer than 200 games.

Edit: Took a look. Points over that stretch are identical both have 71 points. Caufield has 48 goals to Suzuki's 28.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I almost always value the goal scorer. Crosby and Ovechkin are in the same class of player. But that’s because Crosby himself has won numerous scoring titles and a Richard and puts up a fair number of goals while leading the league in points. It’s not like comparing Adam Oates vs Brett Hull. And in that case, Oates was a better player in every conceivable way but one… goalscoring. You’ll notice that Hull went into the HOF first and is ranked much higher. Adam Oates btw had more points in the 90s than anyone not named Gretzky. As for Crosby vs OV, OV will probably be regarded as being better too.

Bossy’s ranked higher than Trottier. Richard is generally ranked higher than Beliveau….

As for Michael Ryder, there’s a big difference between 30 goals vs 50. He was a solid second liner through and through.

And yes, elite goalscorers are the most difficult thing to replace. Even on our club right now we’ve got Dach who’d fill in fine as a solid two way centre. You can find that kind of talent elsewhere.

Considering OV won 9 Richard trophies this one shouldn’t be close. Yet, Crosby will likely be ranked higher when it’s all said and done. Brett Hull was one of three players in history to score 70 or more 3 times. He deserves his ranking, we’re talking about Nick/Cole here where you said Cole’s upside is “much greater”, so how many more goals does Cole need to prove his upside is “much greater” surely, 5-10 doesn’t do it.

You picked two of the greatest goal scorers in history in Hull/Bossy and said see goal scorers are always valued more. Not sure in what circles Richard comes out ahead of Beliveau. None that I know of. If we stick with goals are greater than everything else then OV has to be ranked ahead of almost everyone and he isn’t and won’t be.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Considering OV won 9 Richard trophies this one shouldn’t be close. Yet, Crosby will likely be ranked higher when it’s all said and done.

I don’t think he will. I think OV will get the edge on most lists. Again though, same class of player.

Brett Hull was one of three players in history to score 70 or more 3 times. He deserves his ranking, we’re talking about Nick/Cole here where you said Cole’s upside is “much greater”, so how many more goals does Cole need to prove his upside is “much greater” surely, 5-10 doesn’t do it.

And Oates had more points than anyone not named Gretzky in the 90s. He was a solid two way player and did EVERYTHING better than Hull. But Hull’s goalscoring won him the Hart and he’s ranked a lot higher.

You picked two of the greatest goal scorers in history in Hull/Bossy and said see goal scorers are always valued more. Not sure in what circles Richard comes out ahead of Beliveau. None that I know of.

Yes, I chose players that everyone knows and included their HOF teammates who did everything else better.

Check out THN’s rankings in 99 where they ranked the best players of the 20th century. Hull, Bossy, Richard all ranked higher. And for good reason, goals are harder to come by. Bobby Hull also ranked above Beliveau btw.

If we stick with goals are greater than everything else then OV has to be ranked ahead of almost everyone and he isn’t and won’t be.

The 5th overall slot is fluid. THN gave it to Richard. But honestly, if OV breaks that record he will probably claim that spot.

In any event, CC actually has to produce. He didn’t do that this year. But I took a look, he’s 8th in shots. Of the top 20 shooters this year, only two are under 20 goals (Hughes is also under twenty but only by virtue of missing so many games.) A bunch of players have 30 or more already. I think CC was pacing for 312 shots last time I checked a few days ago. At a percentage of 16 (what he and Suzuki had last year - Suzuki is at 16 again now) he’d be at 50. (At 13 percent he’d be at 41.) So that gives me hope that he’s not another Chris Higgins.

And, maybe Suzuki will prove himself to be better than I had hoped. He’s getting some puck luck right now -30 percent since the all star break - but he’s playing great hockey.

But if you ask me today - YES I think CC has way more upside. He was almost a 50 goal guy straight out of the gate. Most goals per game of any player under 23… shit man, that’s f***ing crazy. When did we last have something like that?

It sucks that he’s had an off year. Everything tells me that he’ll be back to normal next year. If he’s not though? Then I’ll be wrong. And like I said above, that will suck for all of us. Because if this guy’s not at least a 40 goal scorer for us going forward then we’ve got more work to do on the rebuild.

 

[Mrb1p]

10 goals in 10 games. How ya doin?

Whens the last time a Hab had 10 in 10?

Hes 2nd in the league in that span. Amazing player that needs to get his respects.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

10 goals in 10 games. How ya doin?

Whens the last time a Hab had 10 in 10?

Shooting at 30 percent since the All Star break. Doesn’t get hotter than that. 16 percent on the year is in line with last season.

 

[Miller Time]

Yet again, Suzuki showing definitively that he is the best player on this roster...

What he could be putting up, pts-wise, if he played with linemates that could at least somewhat match his consistent performance level, would put him firmly in the top tier of NHL C's

Hopefully CC, Slaf, Newhook, Dach etc can get to a level of consistent performance sooner than later.

Crazy that some posters are still blind to just how good he is, right now.

 

[Mrb1p]

Shooting at 30 percent since the All Star break. Doesn’t get hotter than that. 16 percent on the year is in line with last season.

Tell us how you really feel.

Yet again, Suzuki showing definitively that he is the best player on this roster...

What he could be putting up, pts-wise, if he played with linemates that could at least somewhat match his consistent performance level, would put him firmly in the top tier of NHL C's

Hopefully CC, Slaf, Newhook, Dach etc can get to a level of consistent performance sooner than later.

Crazy that some posters are still blind to just how good he is, right now.

He is next level good this year. I'd say that even more than offensively, his defensive game is reaching insane levels. I think he's surpassing Plekanec, maybe not as a shadow because Pleks was one of the very best in the league at it, maybe the best, but as a consistent defensive presence, at least.

 

[Miller Time]

It’s the back half of rookie year. Apples and oranges.

And no, it’s not cobbled together. It’s a full 82 game stretch from a player who has fewer than 200 games.

Edit: Took a look. Points over that stretch are identical both have 71 points. Caufield has 48 goals to Suzuki's 28.

In the 60 game stretch this year, Suzuki has 12 more points, while being a much better overall contributor.

Yeah, he's 16 months older, but that's a weirdly small difference from which to project CC to have a much higher future ceiling to hit.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Tell us how you really feel.

He's had a great season and is red hot right now.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

In the 60 game stretch this year, Suzuki has 12 more points, while being a much better overall contributor.

Yeah, he's 16 months older, but that's a weirdly small difference from which to project CC to have a much higher future ceiling to hit.

Over that 82 game stretch both players had 71 points. One guy had 48 goals the other 28. Included in that is that back half of CC's rookie year. Pretty freaking crazy.

 

[Miller Time]

Over that 82 game stretch both players had 71 points. One guy had 48 goals the other 28. Included in that is that back half of CC's rookie year. Pretty freaking crazy.

Yes yes, I know you love to cherry pick stats to try and keep this poor take alive lol...

Kinda silly, no? Might be more fun to just accept you had a bad take that proved definitively false, and move on to enjoy BOTH young talents we have.

If CC does find a way to establish some consistency, and tangibly surpasses the positive impact Suzuki has, GREAT! it's looking less and less likely by the day, but that's only BC Suzuki is ascending faster... That should be a reason to rejoice, I would think

 

[Rapala]

Over that 82 game stretch both players had 71 points. One guy had 48 goals the other 28. Included in that is that back half of CC's rookie year. Pretty freaking crazy.

I'm sure he thanks God every night he got to play with Suzuki and then with Suzuki and Dach during that stretch.

What does Caufield's rookie season have to do with Suzuki's consistency I'm wondering?
Something you should do is give credit where credit is due.

Caufield plays with Suzuki and blossoms.
Dach plays with Suzuki and blossoms.
Slaf plays with Suzuki and starts blossoming.

Totally coincidental I guess.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I'm sure he thanks God every night he got to play with Suzuki and then with Suzuki and Dach during that stretch.

What does Caufield's rookie season have to do with Suzuki's consistency I'm wondering?

It has to do with me answering a question.

Yes yes, I know you love to cherry pick stats to try and keep this poor take alive lol...

I don’t think it’s cherry picking to take the first 82 games under MSL and the last 82 coming into this season.

I was asked why I thought he had a higher ceiling and gave the answer.

Poor take? We’ll see.

In the 60 game stretch this year, Suzuki has 12 more points, while being a much better overall contributor.

Yeah, he's 16 months older, but that's a weirdly small difference from which to project CC to have a much higher future ceiling to hit.

Suzuki has been our best player this year. No debate here.

 

[Miller Time]

I don’t think it’s cherry picking to take the first 82 games under MSL.

I was asked why I thought he had a higher ceiling and gave the answer.

Poor take? We’ll see.

Did you already forget your take last year?