Player Discussion Nick Suzuki Part 11

[Rapala]

Again, I'll break it down for you slowly.

This is not a comparison of Suzuki vs Caufield. It never was.

The discussion is about Suzuki's viability as a number one. I've challenged it and people have freaked out. And they've used the false excuse of injuries as being the reason for his dropoff. I've pointed out that those injuries mostly happened later and that he still had a winger who was putting up numbers to work with.

That's it.

The idea that he stopped producing because injuries suddenly happened is a false excuse.

Then why in the blue blazes did you insert Caufield into the Nick Suzuki thread no one else did.

I thought you were doing well enough using existing center icemen in your argument although I disagreed with your argument based on timeline and team strength.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Then why in the blue blazes did you insert Caufield into the Nick Suzuki thread no one else did.

Why do you keep asking this?

For the last time, people have said Suzuki had nobody to play with and that’s why his numbers tanked. It’s clearly not the case. He had a winger who continued to score even as he slumped.

Do you get it now?

 

[Belial]

Why do you keep asking this?

For the last time, people have said Suzuki had nobody to play with and that’s why his numbers tanked. It’s clearly not the case. He had a winger who continued to score even as he slumped.

Do you get it now?

No!!!
You clearly have an agenda against Suzuki because you love Caufield more!

 

[Rapala]

Why do you keep asking this?

For the last time, people have said Suzuki had nobody to play with and that’s why his numbers tanked. It’s clearly not the case. He had a winger who continued to score even as he slumped.

Do you get it now?

Because it was an absolutely useless argument. The entire team tanked at the same time. The deck chairs got shuffled. Not an excuse just a reality. It's written in stone and everyone but you seems to understand all three players Suzuki Dach and Caufield fell off their PPG pace at exactly the same time. I'm sorry but no one is going to accept the tiny segment of games you came up with as indication that Suzuki is not a number one center. Most fans are impressed that Suzuki was able to put up a career high in the shitstorm that was 2021/2022.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Because it was an absolutely useless argument.

Then tell people to stop making it. His winger continued to produce while he dropped off a cliff. There’s no real excuse for him.

 

[SlafySZN]

Good god, we have an agenda against Suzuki or we don’t like him if we think he is not a number 1 center

It’s not an insult to Suzuki.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Good god, we have an agenda against Suzuki or we don’t like him if we think he is not a number 1 center

It’s not an insult to Suzuki.

People have lost their minds.

I really don’t get it. He had a slump and for some reason it can’t be acknowledged. It must be some excuse…

He’s a good player. He might even break out this year and be a great one. But he’s been streaky throughout his career. It’s not agenda to call this out.

At worst he’ll be what he is. A solid two way guy who’d ideally be a great 2nd liner. At best he’ll be a point per game player who can put up 30+ goals. I don’t think he’ll do it but I also don’t think it’s totally unrealistic that he could. The biggest thing he needs to learn is consistency.

 

[Rapala]

Then tell people to stop making it. His winger continued to produce while he dropped off a cliff. There’s no real excuse for him.

NO HE BLOODY WELL DIDN'T.
Like I pointed out to you he put up exactly 2 more points than Suzuki in the 24 game segment I used as a reference. We don't even have to look at the micro stats you posted because they are totally irrelevant. Your stance assumes Caufield was going to outpoint Suzuki the rest of the way based on a pace selected from a small sample size which is pure fantasy. One player was able to complete his season one wasn't one player was obviously susceptible to breaking down and one wasn't. If Caufield stays healthy Suzuki is definitely putting up 75+ points based on what he showed. That is very much approaching #1 center status. If the line remained intact we probably would have had multiple PPG players. Guess what Suzuki was centering that line.

 

[Rapala]

Good god, we have an agenda against Suzuki or we don’t like him if we think he is not a number 1 center

It’s not an insult to Suzuki.

Think what you want but nothing anyone has posted in this thread comes close to showing Suzuki isn't a number one center NOTHING. The strong arguments are all on the other side based on plain simple facts.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

NO HE BLOODY WELL DIDN'T.
Like I pointed out to you he put up exactly 2 more points than Suzuki in the 24 game segment I used as a reference. We don't even have to look at the micro stats you posted because they are totally irrelevant. Your stance assumes Caufield was going to outpoint Suzuki the rest of the way based on a pace selected from a small sample size which is pure fantasy. One player was able to complete his season one wasn't one player was obviously susceptible to breaking down and one wasn't. If Caufield stays healthy Suzuki is definitely putting up 75+ points based on what he showed. That is very much approaching #1 center status. If the line remained intact we probably would have had multiple PPG players. Guess what Suzuki was centering that line.

Pacing for around 50 goals.. yeah, I’d say he did. I don’t give a shit about assists. The only guy who could score from December onwards was Caufield. Suzuki went in the tank and the offense dried up. You can’t do that if you’re a number one.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Think what you want but nothing anyone has posted in this thread comes close to showing Suzuki isn't a number one center NOTHING. The strong arguments are all on the other side based on plain simple facts.

73rd in league scoring. Outside the top 30 for centers… those don’t look like number one center numbers to me.

 

[SlafySZN]

People have lost their minds.

I really don’t get it. He had a slump and for some reason it can’t be acknowledged. It must be some excuse…

He’s a good player. He might even break out this year and be a great one. But he’s been streaky throughout his career. It’s not agenda to call this out.

At worst he’ll be what he is. A solid two way guy who’d ideally be a great 2nd liner. At best he’ll be a point per game player who can put up 30+ goals. I don’t think he’ll do it but I also don’t think it’s totally unrealistic that he could. The biggest thing he needs to learn is consistency.

Can’t question him apparently. He’s immune to that.

Yes, he has big responsibilities, he plays a lot in all situations. He’s very good and important for habs. He did a good job in the last two seasons, it’s not easy leading a rebuilding team.

But i also have some observations on him in the last few years that makes me think it might be beneficial for him having another center in front of him.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Can’t question him apparently. He’s immune to that.

Yes, he has big responsibilities, he plays a lot in all situations. He’s very good and important for habs. He did a good job in the last two seasons, it’s not easy leading a rebuilding team.

But i also have some observations on him in the last few years that makes me think it might be beneficial for him having another center in front of him.

We’ve put too much on him. He’s done an admirable job and as others have pointed out, brought other players along. He’s well deserving of the C.

 

[Kaladin]

People have lost their minds.

I really don’t get it. He had a slump and for some reason it can’t be acknowledged. It must be some excuse…

He’s a good player. He might even break out this year and be a great one. But he’s been streaky throughout his career. It’s not agenda to call this out.

At worst he’ll be what he is. A solid two way guy who’d ideally be a great 2nd liner. At best he’ll be a point per game player who can put up 30+ goals. I don’t think he’ll do it but I also don’t think it’s totally unrealistic that he could. The biggest thing he needs to learn is consistency.

Welcome to the club of having a slightly different opinion from the consensus around here. The wolves come for you. I agree with your comments here.

 

[Rapala]

Welcome to the club of having a slightly different opinion from the consensus around here. The wolves come for you. I agree with your comments here.

Not true have all different opinions you want. Just be smart about it.

 

[Miller Time]

Of the 16 centers who hit 80 points this year, 10 (bolded) had ppg seasons by age 23 or earlier (some much earlier.) Petterson, Hischier and Thompson have their break outs at 24.

Some on this list - RNH for example - have never done it until now. He along with Miller are outliers with career years coming much later. Two of them have career years and have never been on this list before. Miller and Zibenajad only break out in their late 20s... and that's kinda weird.

Player

Season

Team

S/C

Pos

GP

G

A

P

+/-

PIM

P/GP

EVG

EVP

PPG

PPP

SHG

SHP

OTG

GWG

S

S%

TOI/GP

FOW%

Connor McDavid

20222023​

EDM

L

C

82​

64​

89​

153​

22​

36​

1.87​

39​

75​

21​

71​

4​

7​

2​

11​

352​

18.2​

22:23

51.9​

Leon Draisaitl

20222023​

EDM

L

C

80​

52​

76​

128​

7​

24​

1.6​

19​

64​

32​

62​

1​

2​

1​

11​

247​

21.1​

21:44

54.9​

Nathan MacKinnon

20222023​

COL

R

C

71​

42​

69​

111​

29​

30​

1.56​

30​

77​

12​

34​

0​

0​

2​

9​

366​

11.5​

22:19

44.4​

Ryan Nugent-Hopkins

20222023​

EDM

L

C

82​

37​

67​

104​

12​

35​

1.27​

21​

47​

15​

53​

1​

4​

0​

3​

201​

18.4​

19:48

45.2​

Elias Pettersson

20222023​

VAN

L

C

80​

39​

63​

102​

16​

14​

1.28​

28​

68​

6​

25​

5​

9​

3​

6​

257​

15.2​

20:33

44.3​

Jack Hughes

20222023​

NJD

L

C

78​

43​

56​

99​

10​

6​

1.27​

34​

68​

9​

31​

0​

0​

1​

6​

336​

12.8​

19:58

35.3​

Brayden Point

20222023​

TBL

R

C

82​

51​

44​

95​

2​

7​

1.16​

31​

65​

20​

30​

0​

0​

1​

9​

235​

21.7​

19:40

50.7​

Tage Thompson

20222023​

BUF

R

C

78​

47​

47​

94​

4​

39​

1.21​

26​

59​

20​

34​

1​

1​

1​

7​

295​

15.9​

18:35

43.1​

Sidney Crosby

20222023​

PIT

L

C

82​

33​

60​

93​

8​

52​

1.13​

24​

66​

9​

27​

0​

0​

1​

9​

255​

12.9​

20:09

53​

Mika Zibanejad

20222023​

NYR

R

C

82​

39​

52​

91​

25​

20​

1.11​

18​

50​

20​

39​

1​

2​

0​

5​

251​

15.5​

19:58

49.5​

Auston Matthews

20222023​

TOR

L

C

74​

40​

45​

85​

31​

20​

1.15​

27​

57​

13​

28​

0​

0​

0​

8​

327​

12.2​

20:17

52.4​

Steven Stamkos

20222023​

TBL

R

C

81​

34​

50​

84​

-5​

46​

1.04​

20​

49​

14​

35​

0​

0​

2​

6​

240​

14.2​

19:01

53.8​

Evgeni Malkin

20222023​

PIT

L

C

82​

27​

56​

83​

-12​

82​

1.01​

16​

47​

11​

36​

0​

0​

0​

3​

240​

11.3​

18:35

49.3​

J.T. Miller

20222023​

VAN

L

C

81​

32​

50​

82​

-7​

60​

1.01​

16​

43​

11​

30​

5​

9​

1​

3​

223​

14.4​

20:41

55​

John Tavares

20222023​

TOR

L

C

80​

36​

44​

80​

-7​

34​

1​

18​

41​

18​

39​

0​

0​

1​

9​

277​

13​

17:39

58.3​

Nico Hischier

20222023​

NJD

L

C

81​

31​

49​

80​

33​

10​

0.99​

21​

57​

7​

19​

3​

4​

2​

9​

256​

12.1​

19:17

53.9​

He has. But others have had to do the same and had success. Being a first line center is not an easy job.

I'd agree.... except for the stats I showed earlier. He dropped off before CC went down. And he dropped off badly.

It'd be one thing if he'd kept the pace and then tanked after CC. I could understand it then. But that's not what happened. And it wasn't a few games... he was brutal for over a month.

80 is attainable. It is. He's shown it in streaks. But he needs to play consistently well the whole season. I'm disappointed it hasn't happened already. Maybe this is the year.

- that's a great list, be even better had you checked the roster scoring for each of them. Context. Matters.

- EP & Hischier did it in their 24 year old seasons, guess what this coming season is for Suzuki...
Suzuki @ 23, 66pts
EP @ 23, 68pts
Hischier @ 23, 60pts
Thompson @ 23, 68pts

Habs won't have the firepower of the Nucks, Sabres or Devil's last year unless things go incredibly well, but a ppg season from Suzuki this coming season assuming just average injury depletion is very realistic and well within what he's trending towards.

Then there's Miller, Zibenejad, RNH...

1/3 of your list Suzuki is on par if not ahead of pace, while being a stronger defensive contributor than many and having shown himself already to be a reliable playoff performer.

The things you bring up do more to show Suzuki is a 1C that is well within a normal progression range despite the Ducharme & then Injury-ravaged seasons... it's so odd that you can't see that.

73rd in league scoring. Outside the top 30 for centers… those don’t look like number one center numbers to me.

Bergeron, Lindholm, Zegras, Hertl... all 2C's then, right?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

- that's a great list, be even better had you checked the roster scoring for each of them. Context. Matters.

Sure. But Nathan Mackinnon for example was on a rebuilding team when he was over a point per game in his early 20s. Same with Matthews and a lot of these guys.

It’s not uncommon at all for players to have their best seasons at around 23 years old.

- EP & Hischier did it in their 24 year old seasons, guess what this coming season is for Suzuki...
Suzuki @ 23, 66pts
EP @ 23, 68pts
Hischier @ 23, 60pts
Thompson @ 23, 68pts

Habs won't have the firepower of the Nucks, Sabres or Devil's last year unless things go incredibly well, but a ppg season from Suzuki this coming season assuming just average injury depletion is very realistic and well within what he's trending towards.

Then there's Miller, Zibenejad, RNH...

1/3 of your list Suzuki is on par if not ahead of pace, while being a stronger defensive contributor than many and having shown himself already to be a reliable playoff performer.

The things you bring up do more to show Suzuki is a 1C that is well within a normal progression range despite the Ducharme & then Injury-ravaged seasons... it's so odd that you can't see that.

Dude, the guy asked and I produced a quick list. How much research do you want to do? By all means go and and do your own.

Bergeron, Lindholm, Zegras, Hertl... all 2C's then, right?

I hate to break this to you but… Suzuki hasn’t won a Selke. He’s not Patrice Bergeron. If he starts getting 60s on his CF numbers, then we can talk.

 

[Scriptor]

Sure. But Nathan Mackinnon for example was on a rebuilding team when he was over a point per game in his early 20s. Same with Matthews and a lot of these guys.

It’s not uncommon at all for players to have their best seasons at around 23 years old.

Dude, the guy asked and I produced a quick list. How much research do you want to do? By all means go and and do your own.

I hate to break this to you but… Suzuki hasn’t won a Selke. He’s not Patrice Bergeron. If he starts getting 60s on his CF numbers, then we can talk.

Now, we aren longer talking about a #1C to prove your point -- we are talking about generationnal Cs!

That just takes it up a notch in the "I'll say anything to be right" category".

You disappoint me.

 

[Miller Time]

Sure. But Nathan Mackinnon for example was on a rebuilding team when he was over a point per game in his early 20s. Same with Matthews and a lot of these guys.

Using 2 HOF locks is a dubious reference point... reflects lofty expectations that suggest a problematic framing of "1C".

It’s not uncommon at all for players to have their best seasons at around 23 years old.

It'd not uncommon at all for players to have their best season around 25 years old

Dude, the guy asked and I produced a quick list. How much research do you want to do? By all means go and and do your own.

That explains why the research doesn't actually support your point... odd tobdig in heels on something you admittedly haven't taken the time to ground. Hot takes are all fine & good, why double down on something so flimsy

I hate to break this to you but… Suzuki hasn’t won a Selke. He’s not Patrice Bergeron. If he starts getting 60s on his CF numbers, then we can talk.

Again, you anchor to a player arguably GOAT as a defensive C... why the need to exaggerate like this?

I simply listed the several 1C caliber players that finished with fewer points than Suzuki (countering your implication that falling out of top 30 C's in scoring removes him from the 1C category.

And besides, a player doesn't have to be a HOFer with multiple selkes to be evaluated as strong defensively. Of course, defensive impact is subjectively interpreted, as there is no one metric to compare players on...

but outlandish anchoring aside, do you disagree that Suzuki is a more reliable C defensively than many of the C's on your list, or not? That was the point I made which your Bergeron rebuttal falls flat on.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Now, we aren longer talking about a #1C to prove your point -- we are talking about generationnal Cs!

That just takes it up a notch in the "I'll say anything to be right" category".

You disappoint me.

1. Neither of those players are generational. They are the kinds of guys leading teams we’ll have to beat if we want a cup. And there are more on the way. Fantilli, Bedard…

2. Someone asked me to back up my claim that most top scorers break out at younger ages. So I produced this list.

3. After having done the work, I’m then told that I’m being deceitful in some way by highlighting the players who broke out at 23 or under.

Get over yourself.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Using 2 HOF locks is a dubious reference point... reflects lofty expectations that suggest a problematic framing of "1C".

What do you think the top tier of centers looks like? It’s Crosby, Malkin, McD, Drai, Mackinnon, Matthews, Stamkos, Point… and soon you’ll see guys like Bedard. About half the number one centers in the league will have a shot at the HOF. Kopitar, Bergeron, Aho.. that’d be the next tier down. These are great players man. And we’ll have to beat these kinds of guys if we want a cup.

And we’re going to try to win with Suzuki as our number one?

It'd not uncommon at all for players to have their best season around 25 years old



That explains why the research doesn't actually support your point... odd tobdig in heels on something you admittedly haven't taken the time to ground. Hot takes are all fine & good, why double down on something so flimsy

I haven’t dug my heels in. I’ve made an assertion that it’s pretty common for first line centers to break out at or before 23. I gave you a quick list because it was asked.

If you think I’m wrong YOU come back with some evidence. I’d love to see it and will be more than happy to discuss.

Again, you anchor to a player arguably GOAT as a defensive C... why the need to exaggerate like this?

YOU listed him. YOU brought him up. If you don’t want him compared. Then don’t bring his name into the conversation.

I simply listed the several 1C caliber players that finished with fewer points than Suzuki (countering your implication that falling out of top 30 C's in scoring removes him from the 1C category.

And besides, a player doesn't have to be a HOFer with multiple selkes to be evaluated as strong defensively. Of course, defensive impact is subjectively interpreted, as there is no one metric to compare players on...

but outlandish anchoring aside, do you disagree that Suzuki is a more reliable C defensively than many of the C's on your list, or not? That was the point I made which your Bergeron rebuttal falls flat on.

I’ve already told you. I think Suzukis a solid two way player who so far has demonstrated he’d be a great second liner. That’s where I think he’s best suited.

Now, maybe he proves me wrong. But as I said, he’s 24. It’s well into his prime years. If he doesn’t do it now, I think we have to accept that he’ll probably never be the point per game guy we were hoping for.

It’d be one thing if we had Carey Price. He’s a huge equalizer. But we don’t have that anymore. We can’t just punt on center and expect to win.

 

[Scriptor]

1. Neither of those players are generational. They are the kinds of guys leading teams we’ll have to beat if we want a cup. And there are more on the way. Fantilli, Bedard…

2. Someone asked me to back up my claim that most top scorers break out at younger ages. So I produced this list.

3. After having done the work, I’m then told that I’m being deceitful in some way by highlighting the players who broke out at 23 or under.

Get over yourself.

I agree you have dug in your heels and will concede absolutely nothing believing it weakens your stance.

That just shows insecurity that your viewpoint was valid to begin with.

BTW, I never disputed that Suzuki had a slump at some point last season, I agreed with you that he still needs to produce at around a PPG to be considered a genuine #1C for fans to stop doubting that he is, I shared the same concerns he might not even reach that level, etc., but I still don't share your opinion he isn't trending towards that, or that, if he doesn't do it this year, it's game over for him reaching that plateau.

At this point, you should reconsider who should be getting over themselves.

I understand, though, that it is easier to act as you are now acting when multiple posters disagree with your viewpoint.

What do you think the top tier of centers looks like? It’s Crosby, Malkin, McD, Drai, Mackinnon, Matthews, Stamkos, Point… and soon you’ll see guys like Bedard. About half the number one centers in the league will have a shot at the HOF. Kopitar, Bergeron, Aho.. that’d be the next tier down. These are great players man. And we’ll have to beat these kinds of guys if we want a cup.

And we’re going to try to win with Suzuki as our number one?


I haven’t dug my heels in. I’ve made an assertion that it’s pretty common for first line centers to break out at or before 23. I gave you a quick list because it was asked.

If you think I’m wrong YOU come back with some evidence. I’d love to see it and will be more than happy to discuss.

YOU listed him. YOU brought him up. If you don’t want him compared. Then don’t bring his name into the conversation.

I’ve already told you. I think Suzukis a solid two way player who so far has demonstrated he’d be a great second liner. That’s where I think he’s best suited.

Now, maybe he proves me wrong. But as I said, he’s 24. It’s well into his prime years. If he doesn’t do it now, I think we have to accept that he’ll probably never be the point per game guy we were hoping for.

It’d be one thing if we had Carey Price. He’s a huge equalizer. But we don’t have that anymore. We can’t just punt on center and expect to win.

It’s well into his prime years.

Farcical statement, at best.

 

[Sorinth]

I agree.

But is he good enough to be the best player on a cup winner? As of today I would say absolutely not.

Is he good enough to be the best forward on a cup winner? I would say unlikely, but he may prove me wrong this upcoming year.

It comes down to this: the contenders we’re competing with for the cup will have high powered players. If we’re giving up the advantage in one area we’ll need to be better in another. I don’t want to punt at center.

A lot will depend on Dach. If he can become a 1A or 1B then we’ll have two solid guys who’d be excellent 2nd line centers. And honestly, that might be good enough.

It’s going to be an interesting year. We have a few guys who may break out. If that happens it might be a repeat of the 2013 season where we unexpectedly had a great year. I’m expecting us to be bottom third again but we’ll see. I think this is the year CC hits 50. Suzuki, Dach and Newhook could have big jumps. My guess is, we start strong and then cool off. We’ll see though. Young talent can surprise.

Haven't you claimed that Caufield is already better then Suzuki? If yes then it should be irrelevant to you, no?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I agree you have dug in your heels and will concede absolutely nothing believing it weakens your stance.

You keep saying this and avoid what I’ve actually written.

I hate to break it to you. But upper tier number one centers in the NHL are really good and we’ll have to beat them (without a superstar goalie) to win.

Neither Matthews, nor Mackinnon are generational players. Stop dodging arguments with personal attacks.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Haven't you claimed that Caufield is already better than Suzuki? If yes then it should be irrelevant to you, no?

Irrelevant to this thread.