Player Discussion Nick Suzuki Part 11

[Lafleurs Guy]

Nope and nope.

Strong rebuttal. You got me…

 

[BLONG7]

It's not.

Um... no. People attributed it to injuries, but it's clear the slump preceded it.

It's a matter of consistency. I don’t want to see another era where we rely on a Saku Koivu type player to lead us to a cup that will never come.

If Nick’s better than this it’s time to show it. No excuses.

I think it's safe to say, Koivu for the most part, had a much better supporting cast than Nick did last year.

 

[Rapala]

Everyone misread your posts, or, maybe you’re not as unbiased as you think. That’s why we have biases, we aren’t able to recognize them ourselves. You are no different.

The numbers have been arbitrarily chosen from a sample size of your choosing in order try to prove your point. Others have posted the numbers, but your pinky blinders won’t let you see anything other than your meaningless sample.

You have to admit he's doing a lot of fancy skating. I point out a 2 point differential in a 24 game segment starting in the New Year which included Suzuki's slump and Dach's move up until Caufield's injury.

LG come back with his 10 in 16 on pace for 51 rebuttal. Talk about shrink wrapped.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You have to admit he's doing a lot of fancy skating. I point out a 2 point differential in a 24 game segment starting in the New Year which included Suzuki's slump and Dach's move up until Caufield's injury.

LG come back with his 10 in 16 on pace for 51 rebuttal. Talk about shrink wrapped.

Again, I'll break it down for you slowly.

This is not a comparison of Suzuki vs Caufield. It never was.

The discussion is about Suzuki's viability as a number one. I've challenged it and people have freaked out. And they've used the false excuse of injuries as being the reason for his dropoff. I've pointed out that those injuries mostly happened later and that he still had a winger who was putting up numbers to work with.

That's it.

The idea that he stopped producing because injuries suddenly happened is a false excuse.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I think it's safe to say, Koivu for the most part, had a much better supporting cast than Nick did last year.

Sure. But Koivu never really played with a winger who was scoring at the pace that CC was. Even when Kovalev was on the team they didn't really play togther.

Suzuki's drop off happens BEFORE CC goes down. There's not really a good reason for it unless he was injured and we don't know it. But I think that's unlikely because it exactly corresponds with the Monahan injury. Dach left his line and I think that had a big impact.

But honestly... it shouldn't. Not if you're a number one. He still had a winger producing so why the drop off? If it had happened later, sure. But it didn't. It precedes the CC injury.

 

[The Great Weal]

You have to admit he's doing a lot of fancy skating. I point out a 2 point differential in a 24 game segment starting in the New Year which included Suzuki's slump and Dach's move up until Caufield's injury.

LG come back with his 10 in 16 on pace for 51 rebuttal. Talk about shrink wrapped.

Apparently, Suzuki's the only one who's production fell after injuries. When Caufield had 1 goal in like 34 games last year, it was 100% on Ducharme and nothing else. Suzuki struggling for 15-20 games when the whole team fell apart is 100% on him and nothing else.

 

[417]

Suzuki got overused by MSL, playing in every game situation, including the PK. That may have had something to do with a lull in his production. At some point, playing 20+ minutes regularly and relied on for everything, he just looked gassed out there.

However, it was a learning experience for Suzuki and he still produced at .80 PPG, progressing from the season before's .74 PPG.

The assets has consistently progressed and keeps getting better.

Fine, let's write him off, then...

This is becoming an empty argument and makes the season starting a helluva happy occasion to come

Every night Suzuki had a target as the guy to stop on the Habs.

For most of the year, he was legimately the only threat the Habs had.

tough job!

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Every night Suzuki had a target as the guy to stop on the Habs.

For most of the year, he was legimately the only threat the Habs had.

tough job!

It's that way for a lot of number one centers though, esp on rebuild teams. Usually they pop around 22, 23 years old. By that time you're seeing pretty good production. 24 is pretty late for a guy who's been in the league this long to suddenly breakout. Not saying it doesn't - or won't - happen. But I'd have expected Nick to have broken out by now.

And it was looking that way at the start of last season.

 

[Scriptor]

This whole thing is making me ill.

I hate when it's I'm right, you're wrong and it becomes anything to shoot down everything.

Yes, Suzuki had a lull in production last season.

Will he improve -- once again, meaning getting over 70 points, up to what, nobody knows -- if the team remains relatively healthy, with a little more experience after last season?

99% certain he will.

Bring on the new season and stop pissing in the wind about last season.

GO HABS GO!

 

[417]

It's that way for a lot of number one centers though, esp on rebuild teams. Usually they pop around 22, 23 years old. By that time you're seeing pretty good production. 24 is pretty late for a guy who's been in the league this long to suddenly breakout. Not saying it doesn't - or won't - happen. But I'd have expected Nick to have broken out by now.

And it was looking that way at the start of last season.

I don't disagree with your notion that he needs to prove to be a more consistent player. More than a fair ask.

I just find he's been asked to to carry a very heavy load at a very young age on some pretty poor offensive teams, if we're being fair.

Last year with a healthy Caufiekd or even a semi-stwady offensive top 6 winger and he's closer to a PPG imo.

But that doesn't change the fact that there's another level this team needs him to reach

This whole thing is making me ill.

I hate when it's I'm right, you're wrong and it becomes anything to shoot down everything.

Yes, Suzuki had a lull in production last season.

Will he improve -- once again, meaning getting over 70 points, up to what, nobody knows -- if the team remains relatively healthy, with a little more experience after last season?

99% certain he will.

Bring on the new season and stop pissing in the wind about last season.

GO HABS GO!

He had 66pts on a team where no one else scored more than 36pts…theres no doubt he can get 70+ imo

 

[Miller Time]

It's that way for a lot of number one centers though, esp on rebuild teams. Usually they pop around 22, 23 years old. By that time you're seeing pretty good production. 24 is pretty late for a guy who's been in the league this long to suddenly breakout. Not saying it doesn't - or won't - happen. But I'd have expected Nick to have broken out by now.

And it was looking that way at the start of last season.

Interesting claim, care to provide the evidence ?

By my math, Habs were
- only team in NHL with only 1 player over 40pts
- had fewer 30+ pt players than any bottom 10 team
- had fewest dbl digit goal scorers of any bottom 10 team

So, last season, your claim is demonstrably false.

 

[Scriptor]

Interesting claim, care to provide the evidence ?

Actually, that would hold more water if Suzuki had played in the NHL as an 18-yr-old. If he was still doggy-paddling in terms of production as a 24-yr-old, I'd probably be writing him off as well.

But, with 66 points on a team that was already not that deep in top-6 talent, also depleted by injuries to the limited key players it did have, both up front and on D, I don't think he is doggy paddling in terms of production at all.

Four relatively full seasons in this league, including two ironman, complete seasons in the last two he has played, going from .58 PPG to .73 PPG to .74 PPG and, last year, with its given context, to .80 PPG in that time frame, why exactly is anyone betting against him improving on those numbers this season? And the following one?

Does Suzuki getting only 74 points this season, raising his PPG pace from .80 to .90, yet another consistent improvement, mean he will never reach the PPG production of the #1C we would like to have in order to hope for a 25th Cup?

Hell no!

Maybe, the following season, Suzuki then plateaus in the mid-70-point production, Turning 26, the following season and having posted mid-70s for points with more experienced and better line mates over two seasons, it might be more appropriate to assume that this is his ceiling, at that pont.

Which would be excellent if Suzuki was our second C.

We don't know what the future holds, but it's inane to bet agains Suzuki continuing to progress in terms of production, or to state with any certainty that he will be unable to score at a PPG pace in the future, short of doing as much with the intention of stacking the odds against Suzuki getting 80+ points.

In either case, nothing should prevent Montreal from trying toads a better C than Suzuki, if they can, even if Suzuki does reach 80+ points in the next two years.

Cs can more easily play wing and we already know that Dach can be an excellent RW.

What would be soba about:

???
Suzuki
Beck
???

With Dach on the wing of one of the top-6 lines?

It's all speculation, at this point, so the painted positions are just marring the landscape, IMO.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Interesting claim, care to provide the evidence ?

Of the 16 centers who hit 80 points this year, 10 (bolded) had ppg seasons by age 23 or earlier (some much earlier.) Petterson, Hischier and Thompson have their break outs at 24.

Some on this list - RNH for example - have never done it until now. He along with Miller are outliers with career years coming much later. Two of them have career years and have never been on this list before. Miller and Zibenajad only break out in their late 20s... and that's kinda weird.

Player

Season

Team

S/C

Pos

GP

G

A

P

+/-

PIM

P/GP

EVG

EVP

PPG

PPP

SHG

SHP

OTG

GWG

S

S%

TOI/GP

FOW%

Connor McDavid

20222023​

EDM

L

C

82​

64​

89​

153​

22​

36​

1.87​

39​

75​

21​

71​

4​

7​

2​

11​

352​

18.2​

22:23

51.9​

Leon Draisaitl

20222023​

EDM

L

C

80​

52​

76​

128​

7​

24​

1.6​

19​

64​

32​

62​

1​

2​

1​

11​

247​

21.1​

21:44

54.9​

Nathan MacKinnon

20222023​

COL

R

C

71​

42​

69​

111​

29​

30​

1.56​

30​

77​

12​

34​

0​

0​

2​

9​

366​

11.5​

22:19

44.4​

Ryan Nugent-Hopkins

20222023​

EDM

L

C

82​

37​

67​

104​

12​

35​

1.27​

21​

47​

15​

53​

1​

4​

0​

3​

201​

18.4​

19:48

45.2​

Elias Pettersson

20222023​

VAN

L

C

80​

39​

63​

102​

16​

14​

1.28​

28​

68​

6​

25​

5​

9​

3​

6​

257​

15.2​

20:33

44.3​

Jack Hughes

20222023​

NJD

L

C

78​

43​

56​

99​

10​

6​

1.27​

34​

68​

9​

31​

0​

0​

1​

6​

336​

12.8​

19:58

35.3​

Brayden Point

20222023​

TBL

R

C

82​

51​

44​

95​

2​

7​

1.16​

31​

65​

20​

30​

0​

0​

1​

9​

235​

21.7​

19:40

50.7​

Tage Thompson

20222023​

BUF

R

C

78​

47​

47​

94​

4​

39​

1.21​

26​

59​

20​

34​

1​

1​

1​

7​

295​

15.9​

18:35

43.1​

Sidney Crosby

20222023​

PIT

L

C

82​

33​

60​

93​

8​

52​

1.13​

24​

66​

9​

27​

0​

0​

1​

9​

255​

12.9​

20:09

53​

Mika Zibanejad

20222023​

NYR

R

C

82​

39​

52​

91​

25​

20​

1.11​

18​

50​

20​

39​

1​

2​

0​

5​

251​

15.5​

19:58

49.5​

Auston Matthews

20222023​

TOR

L

C

74​

40​

45​

85​

31​

20​

1.15​

27​

57​

13​

28​

0​

0​

0​

8​

327​

12.2​

20:17

52.4​

Steven Stamkos

20222023​

TBL

R

C

81​

34​

50​

84​

-5​

46​

1.04​

20​

49​

14​

35​

0​

0​

2​

6​

240​

14.2​

19:01

53.8​

Evgeni Malkin

20222023​

PIT

L

C

82​

27​

56​

83​

-12​

82​

1.01​

16​

47​

11​

36​

0​

0​

0​

3​

240​

11.3​

18:35

49.3​

J.T. Miller

20222023​

VAN

L

C

81​

32​

50​

82​

-7​

60​

1.01​

16​

43​

11​

30​

5​

9​

1​

3​

223​

14.4​

20:41

55​

John Tavares

20222023​

TOR

L

C

80​

36​

44​

80​

-7​

34​

1​

18​

41​

18​

39​

0​

0​

1​

9​

277​

13​

17:39

58.3​

Nico Hischier

20222023​

NJD

L

C

81​

31​

49​

80​

33​

10​

0.99​

21​

57​

7​

19​

3​

4​

2​

9​

256​

12.1​

19:17

53.9​

I don't disagree with your notion that he needs to prove to be a more consistent player. More than a fair ask.

I just find he's been asked to to carry a very heavy load at a very young age on some pretty poor offensive teams, if we're being fair.

He has. But others have had to do the same and had success. Being a first line center is not an easy job.

Last year with a healthy Caufiekd or even a semi-stwady offensive top 6 winger and he's closer to a PPG imo.

I'd agree.... except for the stats I showed earlier. He dropped off before CC went down. And he dropped off badly.

It'd be one thing if he'd kept the pace and then tanked after CC. I could understand it then. But that's not what happened. And it wasn't a few games... he was brutal for over a month.

But that doesn't change the fact that there's another level this team needs him to reach


He had 66pts on a team where no one else scored more than 36pts…theres no doubt he can get 70+ imo

80 is attainable. It is. He's shown it in streaks. But he needs to play consistently well the whole season. I'm disappointed it hasn't happened already. Maybe this is the year.

 

[Belial]

Four relatively full seasons in this league, including two ironman, complete seasons in the last two he has played

I am actually pretty sure Suzuki hasn't missed one single game since he made it to the NHL.

He's out there chasing Phil!!!

 

[417]

Of the 16 centers who hit 80 points this year, 10 (bolded) had ppg seasons by age 23 or earlier (some much earlier.) Petterson, Hischier and Thompson have their break outs at 24.

Some on this list - RNH for example - have never done it until now. He along with Miller are outliers with career years coming much later. Two of them have career years and have never been on this list before. Miller and Zibenajad only break out in their late 20s... and that's kinda weird.

Player

Season

Team

S/C

Pos

GP

G

A

P

+/-

PIM

P/GP

EVG

EVP

PPG

PPP

SHG

SHP

OTG

GWG

S

S%

TOI/GP

FOW%

Connor McDavid

20222023​

EDM

L

C

82​

64​

89​

153​

22​

36​

1.87​

39​

75​

21​

71​

4​

7​

2​

11​

352​

18.2​

22:23

51.9​

Leon Draisaitl

20222023​

EDM

L

C

80​

52​

76​

128​

7​

24​

1.6​

19​

64​

32​

62​

1​

2​

1​

11​

247​

21.1​

21:44

54.9​

Nathan MacKinnon

20222023​

COL

R

C

71​

42​

69​

111​

29​

30​

1.56​

30​

77​

12​

34​

0​

0​

2​

9​

366​

11.5​

22:19

44.4​

Ryan Nugent-Hopkins

20222023​

EDM

L

C

82​

37​

67​

104​

12​

35​

1.27​

21​

47​

15​

53​

1​

4​

0​

3​

201​

18.4​

19:48

45.2​

Elias Pettersson

20222023​

VAN

L

C

80​

39​

63​

102​

16​

14​

1.28​

28​

68​

6​

25​

5​

9​

3​

6​

257​

15.2​

20:33

44.3​

Jack Hughes

20222023​

NJD

L

C

78​

43​

56​

99​

10​

6​

1.27​

34​

68​

9​

31​

0​

0​

1​

6​

336​

12.8​

19:58

35.3​

Brayden Point

20222023​

TBL

R

C

82​

51​

44​

95​

2​

7​

1.16​

31​

65​

20​

30​

0​

0​

1​

9​

235​

21.7​

19:40

50.7​

Tage Thompson

20222023​

BUF

R

C

78​

47​

47​

94​

4​

39​

1.21​

26​

59​

20​

34​

1​

1​

1​

7​

295​

15.9​

18:35

43.1​

Sidney Crosby

20222023​

PIT

L

C

82​

33​

60​

93​

8​

52​

1.13​

24​

66​

9​

27​

0​

0​

1​

9​

255​

12.9​

20:09

53​

Mika Zibanejad

20222023​

NYR

R

C

82​

39​

52​

91​

25​

20​

1.11​

18​

50​

20​

39​

1​

2​

0​

5​

251​

15.5​

19:58

49.5​

Auston Matthews

20222023​

TOR

L

C

74​

40​

45​

85​

31​

20​

1.15​

27​

57​

13​

28​

0​

0​

0​

8​

327​

12.2​

20:17

52.4​

Steven Stamkos

20222023​

TBL

R

C

81​

34​

50​

84​

-5​

46​

1.04​

20​

49​

14​

35​

0​

0​

2​

6​

240​

14.2​

19:01

53.8​

Evgeni Malkin

20222023​

PIT

L

C

82​

27​

56​

83​

-12​

82​

1.01​

16​

47​

11​

36​

0​

0​

0​

3​

240​

11.3​

18:35

49.3​

J.T. Miller

20222023​

VAN

L

C

81​

32​

50​

82​

-7​

60​

1.01​

16​

43​

11​

30​

5​

9​

1​

3​

223​

14.4​

20:41

55​

John Tavares

20222023​

TOR

L

C

80​

36​

44​

80​

-7​

34​

1​

18​

41​

18​

39​

0​

0​

1​

9​

277​

13​

17:39

58.3​

Nico Hischier

20222023​

NJD

L

C

81​

31​

49​

80​

33​

10​

0.99​

21​

57​

7​

19​

3​

4​

2​

9​

256​

12.1​

19:17

53.9​

He has. But others have had to do the same and had success. Being a first line center is not an easy job.

I'd agree.... except for the stats I showed earlier. He dropped off before CC went down. And he dropped off badly.

It'd be one thing if he'd kept the pace and then tanked after CC. I could understand it then. But that's not what happened. And it wasn't a few games... he was brutal for over a month.

80 is attainable. It is. He's shown it in streaks. But he needs to play consistently well the whole season. I'm disappointed it hasn't happened already. Maybe this is the year.

80pts on the Habs last year and those circumstances, and he might have gotten Hart trophy votes lol.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

80pts on the Habs last year and those circumstances, and he might have gotten Hart trophy votes lol.

My issue with him isn’t so much after CC goes down. I’d have hoped for more but pacing for 62 points isn’t bad. I’d expect his points to take a hit.

I have an issue with him ghosting for a month and a half beforehand though. That can’t happen.

 

[Scriptor]

Were there only 16 80-point Cs? Of which, three were on EDM, two were on TOR and two more were on PIT, two were on NJ, two were from VAN and two more were on TB?

Only 9 teams had at least an 80+point C. 6 had more than one. 1 had three, even if plenty of minutes were spent playing wing for the Cs in EDM to reach that total, whether that was at even strength or on the PP

The same happens in PIT forth PP.

I've also seen it in TB as well.

I'm not sure for TOR, VAN, or NJ?

If Suzuki gets to 75 points and Dach gets to 70 points, neither ever reaching 80 points, but providing good shutdown performances as well, plus we add a C like Beck, perhaps, that can be a shutdown beast that also producers 50+ points at C, I believe we have a C-line that can rival even those who produce more points, but warrant larger contracts for their C-line that ends up crippling their team's overall skilled depth.

Montreal, has that 75-point C in the making in Suzuki, IMO, and the potential to see Dach reach 70 points if we aquire/develop more higher end talent on the wing. Fortunately, production from the wing is always easier to acquire, however we end up doing it.

What helps provide hope that Montreal can contend with Suzuki as a 75-point C and Dach as a 70-point C is the way that the D-Corps is shaping up. If one of Hutson or Mailloux rise to the occasion, to go along with what we've seen from Guhle and Matheson and the high projected floor for Reinbacher (as a safe pick). We should also have a D-Corps that drives the play and helps the forward group produce points.

I don't even think we need a PPG C if Suzuki just continues to progress naturally as he has done to date and becomes, conservatively, a 75-point C, and Dach has breakout season in the next couple of years as a 70-point C.

There are plenty of options for a two-way C on the third line already in the system and, for that, I'm pretty sure we will find a prospect to fill that role admirably, even if it isn't Beck.

Again, we need to make sure we add more higher end talent on the wing, whether it is Slafkovsky developing into a 70-point winger to go with Caufield, Newhook finding another gear to become, at least, a complementary top-6 winger, or a prospect already in the system breaking out, like, perhaps, a Joshua Roy who has such a high hockey IQ?

Otherwise, we need to go outside the system if we don't draft another one soon.

Still, if Suzuki and Dach top out at the levels mentioned in this post, Hughes will be in a good position to assemble the missing pieces over the next twit three years, just in time for 2027-2028 when all the bad contracts have disappeared.

He must just avoid handing out other bad contracts in the meantime.

 

[Belial]

My issue with him isn’t so much after CC goes down. I’d have hoped for more but pacing for 62 points isn’t bad. I’d expect his points to take a hit.

I have an issue with him ghosting for a month and a half beforehand though. That can’t happen.

But this is just not true!

Just stop already, Geeez...

You must be the epitome of stubborn/dying on a hill.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

But this is just not true!

Absolutely it is. I posted the numbers earlier. He fell off a cliff.

 

[Sorinth]

It's not.

Um... no. People attributed it to injuries, but it's clear the slump preceded it.

It's a matter of consistency. I don’t want to see another era where we rely on a Saku Koivu type player to lead us to a cup that will never come.

If Nick’s better than this it’s time to show it. No excuses.

Given that McDavid can't even lead his team to a cup you'd think people would give up this notion that we need a chosen one to lead us to the cup. We need multiple star players and Suzuki is good enough to be part of that group of 5-6 star players you need to win.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Given that McDavid can't even lead his team to a cup you'd think people would give up this notion that we need a chosen one to lead us to the cup. We need multiple star players and Suzuki is good enough to be part of that group of 5-6 star players you need to win.

I agree.

But is he good enough to be the best player on a cup winner? As of today I would say absolutely not.

Is he good enough to be the best forward on a cup winner? I would say unlikely, but he may prove me wrong this upcoming year.

It comes down to this: the contenders we’re competing with for the cup will have high powered players. If we’re giving up the advantage in one area we’ll need to be better in another. I don’t want to punt at center.

A lot will depend on Dach. If he can become a 1A or 1B then we’ll have two solid guys who’d be excellent 2nd line centers. And honestly, that might be good enough.

It’s going to be an interesting year. We have a few guys who may break out. If that happens it might be a repeat of the 2013 season where we unexpectedly had a great year. I’m expecting us to be bottom third again but we’ll see. I think this is the year CC hits 50. Suzuki, Dach and Newhook could have big jumps. My guess is, we start strong and then cool off. We’ll see though. Young talent can surprise.

 

[BLONG7]

Sure. But Koivu never really played with a winger who was scoring at the pace that CC was. Even when Kovalev was on the team they didn't really play togther.

Suzuki's drop off happens BEFORE CC goes down. There's not really a good reason for it unless he was injured and we don't know it. But I think that's unlikely because it exactly corresponds with the Monahan injury. Dach left his line and I think that had a big impact.

But honestly... it shouldn't. Not if you're a number one. He still had a winger producing so why the drop off? If it had happened later, sure. But it didn't. It precedes the CC injury.

Suzuki and CC were on fire, and then wham, he went cold.........matchups?
Not sure.
That being said Nick has been thrown to the fire so to speak to carry a pretty poor team.
Too much pressure on the kid?? I love this kid, and think if we can get a 75pt season along with a Dach getting 60 pts on a second line, and Monahan getting 45 pts then we have some nice C depth as a team on the rise...................but still drafting somewhere in the lottery system around 10-12

If the kids on the back end don't slump this year, and Monty can carry the mail then we make it hard on teams who walce in and think they can take the easy points....
I think if we can nip the injury bug we surprise a few teams....still no playoffs, but that's no big deal at all.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Suzuki and CC were on fire, and then wham, he went cold.........matchups?
Not sure.
That being said Nick has been thrown to the fire so to speak to carry a pretty poor team.
Too much pressure on the kid?? I love this kid, and think if we can get a 75pt season along with a Dach getting 60 pts on a second line, and Monahan getting 45 pts then we have some nice C depth as a team on the rise...................but still drafting somewhere in the lottery system around 10-12

If the kids on the back end don't slump this year, and Monty can carry the mail then we make it hard on teams who walce in and think they can take the easy points....
I think if we can nip the injury bug we surprise a few teams....still no playoffs, but that's no big deal at all.

Agreed. Couldn’t care less about the playoffs. As far as I’m concerned it’s a developmental year. I think we’ll be a bottom third team.

As I said above though, we could see a repeat of 2013. If Suzuki’s going to break out, this would be the year. Newhook and Dach are two others I’ll be watching for.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

You have to admit he's doing a lot of fancy skating. I point out a 2 point differential in a 24 game segment starting in the New Year which included Suzuki's slump and Dach's move up until Caufield's injury.

LG come back with his 10 in 16 on pace for 51 rebuttal. Talk about shrink wrapped.

He does this with every debate. I’m not surprised , he’s a great poster, but unusually stubborn. I’ve never seen him concede a point or admit to
A mistake since I’ve been on these boards. I usually find the conversation unproductive and repetitive. The same statements reworded 700 times, it is no different this time.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

He does this with every debate. I’m not surprised , he’s a great poster, but unusually stubborn. I’ve never seen him concede a point or admit to
A mistake since I’ve been on these boards. I usually find the conversation unproductive and repetitive. The same statements reworded 700 times, it is no different this time.

Happy to admit when I’m wrong and have done so many times.