Player Discussion Nick Suzuki Part 11

Miller Time

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Sep 16, 2004
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I’m sorry to have offended you with my disagreements. There’s nothing disingenuous in what I wrote. I simply don’t agree with you.

I don’t consider him a legit first liner right now and you haven’t convinced me otherwise. You think he is and that’s cool.

Hopefully he has a great year next season at which time I will revise/update my opinion.

Not the disagreement, those are what make this place interesting.

It's the disingenuous arguments that are of little use, not sure why you seem so stuck on that :dunno:

Opinions are opinions, no issue there so please drop the victim act, again totally unnecessary.

The take you offered was bad. That's all. It was quite soundly rebutted by several posters. Nothing wrong with being attached to a bad take.

I think this roster is going to perform much better than the general concencus... it's an opinion, an unpopular one & one I readily admit isn't grounded on much of substance. No need for me to pretend otherwise, nor cherry pick stats or anchor to wild outliers to try to prove my opinion is built on anything more than opinion & gut feeling... I'd be rightly questioned and rebutted if I tried.
 

JianYang

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Sep 29, 2017
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Suzuki hasn't yet demonstrated that he can be a legitimate 1st line C on a contender.

To me, that statement is uncontroversial, and I don't get the consternation.

Suzuki is an interesting case. If I were to just go by his career to date, he's very good when he's on his game, but he also disappears for stretches.... And I don't just mean that his numbers dry up... His ability to get or create chances also goes south.

On the other hand, I'm encouraged by his playoff history, as he seems to rise at the big moments.

I don't think he's the elite centre that you will win a cup with, but I do think he would be a valuable peice to any cup winning core... Whether that means he eventually finds himself on the wing, or becomes that invaluable 1b center when (if) the team gets to that point of their competitive cycle.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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Jul 20, 2007
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Not the disagreement, those are what make this place interesting.

It's the disingenuous arguments that are of little use, not sure why you seem so stuck on that :dunno:

Opinions are opinions, no issue there so please drop the victim act, again totally unnecessary.

The take you offered was bad. That's all. It was quite soundly rebutted by several posters. Nothing wrong with being attached to a bad take. Some are just better at owning that then others.
Sorry, still don’t know what you’re talking about in terms of being disingenuous. But again, you’re entitled to your own opinion.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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Suzuki is a strange case. If I were to just go by his career to date, he's very good when he's on his game, but he also disappears for stretches.... And I don't just mean that his numbers dry up... Which ability to get to create chances also goes south.

On the other hand, I'm encouraged by his playoff history, as he seems to rise at the big moments.

I don't think he's the elite centre that you will win a cup with, but I do think he would be a valuable peice to any cup winning core... Whether that means he eventually finds himself on the wing, or becomes that invaluable 1b center.
Agreed.
 

Scriptor

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Jan 1, 2014
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That's the point I've been making all along... look at the full context and it's a poor argument to make that Suzuki is not, currently, a #1C. You've offered nothing of substance to counter that, only shifted your argument to keep trying to find some frame that diminishes the asset that the player is. Why? No idea.
Because he loves the guy - said so himself.

I understand that he wants a McDavid as a #1C. Most fans in the NHL want that. It's entertaining to watch, for sure. Might not win the Cup, but those regular season highlights are really exciting. Same for Matthews, but it's not the Cs' fault their cap hits make it difficult to assemble a complete team in a team game called hockey...

It's just wrong to state you can't contend to win a Cup without a McDavid or a Matthews when their teams haven't come close to winning a Cup, even though they boast C-lines that also include Draisaitl and RNH, or Tavares.

Yet, the onus is all on Suzuki for Montreal? Every C had the same conditions from which to excel?

Tavares' arrival in Toronto for the 2018-2019 season, along with his 88 points, had absolutely nothing to do with opponents needing to focus on something else than Matthews? It helped in no way the younger C reach the 73-point plateau that year, and the 80-point plateau the following year, in his 4th NHLseason?

What was the depth behind Suzuki at C in his Year 3 and Year 4? What was the depth at wing for the Habs in Suzuki's Year 3 and Year 4?

Where was the transition coming from on D for Suzuki in his Year 3 and Year 4?

How stacked was the PP in Suzuki's Year 3 and Year 4?

How did injuries affect the little support he did have in Year 3 and year 4?

There are other examples where a generationnal #1C, like McDavid, would have produced regardless of the support behind him in the lineup, but stating allegedly determining statistical facts without context and making it out to be a litmus test for Suzuki is dishonest, at best.

Context helps explain why it isn't a steadfast rule that, at 23, Suzuki should have already been a PPG C if he is to become a PPG C, or that, at 24, it's definitive he won't become one if he hasn't shown it this upcoming year.

Using personally established rules, based on incomplete data or analysis, for lack of context, is not the foundation of a healthy, convincing or correct argument.

Of course, we don't have a crystal ball and Suzuki might never become a PPG C, but, even if he doesn't, it wouldn't make LG's present argument, based on data that has no context, more valid.

Suzuki's future production, or lack thereof, will not be determined by what LG has posited.
 
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Ezpz

No mad pls
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Suzuki hasn't yet demonstrated that he can be a legitimate 1st line C on a contender.

To me, that statement is uncontroversial, and I don't get the consternation.
Does being the #1 C on a team that went to the finals not count?
 

Scriptor

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While I'm definitely hoping to see Suzuki reach a future production of a PPG, I suspect it won't be enough for you to agree that makes him a legitimate #1C on a contender.

The paradox you present is one of the modern fan, convinced it's a young man's league with players' production passed its prime by age 26. Yet, you also seem to adhere to the old mentality when it comes to the line breakdown for teams because of the quality of players you require in order to consider them legitimate in their role.

The Cap cost of the players you deem legitimate, alone, will force a two-line offensive deployment, at best, and a checking or energy line beyond that.

Ion the other hand, believe that a c-line with Suzuki as a two-way C (even at only a 75-point production), Dach as another two-way C, at or near a 70-point production and Beck (or some other C) around 50 points while also playing a shutdown role, would be sufficient of a C-Line to compete for and win a Cup.

The Cap room advantage over top-heavy teams will, enable a GM like Hughes to assemble more talented top-9 depth and better wingers, overall, that can help generate offense throughout the lineup, rather than relying on one or two lines.

TB, after winning the Stanley Cup, lost their starting G and became an easy team to contain as a one-line team without stellar goaltending to help steal some games.

The more modest offensive production of the Habs' C-line, described above, but with an added defensive acumen, would enable us to roll out our lines and still come up with a positive goal differential against more offensively potent teams during the regular season.

Positive goal differentials = wins.

The SCF run, even without a 75-point C (at that point), supported by a near 70-point C and a 50-point shutdown C, in that order, showed that Cs like Matthews could be contained. A bunch of previous years had also shown that both Tavares and Matthews could be contained, along with Marner, for that matter.

McDavid and Draisaitl, as brilliant as they might be, have also proven that they aren't mysteries that can't be solved come playoff time, given the remaining relative depth on their team.

Nobody can rightfully claim that a team with a crappy C-line will win the Cup, but establishing what constitutes a crappy C-line is a lot more subjective than what some are suggesting when they talk about PPG Cs as legitimate #1Cs for a contender, but really point to 100+ point Cs as the real criteria for #1 Cs needed to lead a contending team, if you analyze properly their arguments.

That's where the dishonesty resides.

There are many ways to build a contender. Sure, without superstar power, it requires more work and better balance, button a cap world, not dishing out 12.5M, or more, to superstars can also help assemble a different type of contender, and, no, that does nutmeat that it has tube a D-only team that plays an anti-hockey game plan and relies mostly, if not strictly, on its goaltending.

There is plenty of degrees between the Carey Price era as the lineup motif for the Habs and aligning three 100-point Cs like EDM did this past season.

In that range of degrees, IMO, given the Cap reality in the NHL, many possible lineups will have a far greater chance of winning the Cup than Edmonton has with three 100-point Cs and not much more.

Does being the #1 C on a team that went to the finals not count?
Wasn't Danault the #1C back then? ;)
 
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Redux91

I do Three bullets.
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If he gets 75 points? Yeah. It’s still teetering in bottom third production but it’s a lot better than low 60s.

Now let me ask you a question. If CC is paired with Dach instead of Suzuki, does Suzuki crack 70 points this year?
While I just don't see how it ever happens
But if somehow Caufield finds himself with Dach, and Suzuki is not with them,
I could see it be a little difficult for Nick to attain 70 points without a marksman like CC sure
But it also depends on just who else exactly Nick would have as wingers, if Cole is not 1 of his wingers I'd imagine RHP would be and together they really had something during the final stretch of the season (but I'm reaching here lol)

But on the PP, they'll be together for the next 8 years, there's no way around that tho
Look at CC's PP goals this year and there's a particular similarity on all of them lol, I.e. the set up man
 

Ezpz

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While I'm definitely hoping to see Suzuki reach a future production of a PPG, I suspect it won't be enough for you to agree that makes him a legitimate #1C on a contender.

The paradox you present is one of the modern fan, convinced it's a young man's league with players' production passed its prime by age 26. Yet, you also seem to adhere to the old mentality when it comes to the line breakdown for teams because of the quality of players you require in order to consider them legitimate in their role.

The Cap cost of the players you deem legitimate, alone, will force a two-line offensive deployment, at best, and a checking or energy line beyond that.

Ion the other hand, believe that a c-line with Suzuki as a two-way C (even at only a 75-point production), Dach as another two-way C, at or near a 70-point production and Beck (or some other C) around 50 points while also playing a shutdown role, would be sufficient of a C-Line to compete for and win a Cup.

The Cap room advantage over top-heavy teams will, enable a GM like Hughes to assemble more talented top-9 depth and better wingers, overall, that can help generate offense throughout the lineup, rather than relying on one or two lines.

TB, after winning the Stanley Cup, lost their starting G and became an easy team to contain as a one-line team without stellar goaltending to help steal some games.

The more modest offensive production of the Habs' C-line, described above, but with an added defensive acumen, would enable us to roll out our lines and still come up with a positive goal differential against more offensively potent teams during the regular season.

Positive goal differentials = wins.

The SCF run, even without a 75-point C (at that point), supported by a near 70-point C and a 50-point shutdown C, in that order, showed that Cs like Matthews could be contained. A bunch of previous years had also shown that both Tavares and Matthews could be contained, along with Marner, for that matter.

McDavid and Draisaitl, as brilliant as they might be, have also proven that they aren't mysteries that can't be solved come playoff time, given the remaining relative depth on their team.

Nobody can rightfully claim that a team with a crappy C-line will win the Cup, but establishing what constitutes a crappy C-line is a lot more subjective than what some are suggesting when they talk about PPG Cs as legitimate #1Cs for a contender, but really point to 100+ point Cs as the real criteria for #1 Cs needed to lead a contending team, if you analyze properly their arguments.

That's where the dishonesty resides.

There are many ways to build a contender. Sure, without superstar power, it requires more work and better balance, button a cap world, not dishing out 12.5M, or more, to superstars can also help assemble a different type of contender, and, no, that does nutmeat that it has tube a D-only team that plays an anti-hockey game plan and relies mostly, if not strictly, on its goaltending.

There is plenty of degrees between the Carey Price era as the lineup motif for the Habs and aligning three 100-point Cs like EDM did this past season.

In that range of degrees, IMO, given the Cap reality in the NHL, many possible lineups will have a far greater chance of winning the Cup than Edmonton has with three 100-point Cs and not much more.


Wasn't Danault the #1C back then? ;)
They shared the same number of minutes but I don't think anyone would have called Danault the #1 C. Nick led the team in scoring. You can make whatever argument you want about defense but the team goes out in any other round without scoring, where Danault contributed literally nothing.
 

DAChampion

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The SCF run, even without a 75-point C (at that point), supported by a near 70-point C and a 50-point shutdown C, in that order, showed that Cs like Matthews could be contained. A bunch of previous years had also shown that both Tavares and Matthews could be contained, along with Marner, for that matter.

In fairness I'm not sure I'd take 13.25 million dollar pornstache playoff marshmallow with awful fashion sense as a 1C to build a contender around.
 
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Rapala

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Suzuki is an interesting case. If I were to just go by his career to date, he's very good when he's on his game, but he also disappears for stretches.... And I don't just mean that his numbers dry up... His ability to get or create chances also goes south.

On the other hand, I'm encouraged by his playoff history, as he seems to rise at the big moments.

I don't think he's the elite centre that you will win a cup with, but I do think he would be a valuable peice to any cup winning core... Whether that means he eventually finds himself on the wing, or becomes that invaluable 1b center when (if) the team gets to that point of their competitive cycle.
This is fair. I'm not sure I agree but it's fair. Suzuki has shown stretches where things look bleak but is the onus totally on him? I remember when he first started he'd have games where he and his line were invisible. Yet he would find a way to pop out of nowhere and create something out of nothing. I remarked on it more than once and mentioned I felt it was a sign of consistency to come. We keep on harping about not having a number one center but we've barely had a number one line. The one time we did it showed.
 
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BehindTheTimes

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Welcome to the club of having a slightly different opinion from the consensus around here. The wolves come for you. I agree with your comments here.
This isn’t true in this instance. I’m often on the minority side when positions are taken. LG is salty because Cole lost the Cole/Nick poll where it wasn’t even close and he hasn’t been able to deal with it since.

I think Cole Caufield is going to be an elite sniper in this league, I believe Nick brings more to the table with his complete game. I don’t think it’s all that close to be honest. Nick does all the heavy lifting, Cole should be out producing Nick substantially in order to deliver value on the same level Nick does and so far they are almost neck and neck.
 
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Scriptor

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September 9 , sounds like Suzuki will have only again Caufield to do something offensively.

Wasting talent , can't find or give him an actual winger to complete a trio.

Salary cap been harsh for all teams but I expected something new on the wings for this season. I don't know what people are expecting for Suzuki with that roster
Dach as RW.

SLAF - MONAHAN - Newhook/Anderson

behind them.
 
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SlafySZN

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Dach as RW.

SLAF - MONAHAN - Newhook/Anderson

behind them.
Why would you want Dach’s talent to be limited on the wing, not using his abilities fully?

It benefits Suzuki and Cole. Not his development at center.
 

DAChampion

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May 28, 2011
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Why would you want Dach’s talent to be limited on the wing, not using his abilities fully?

It benefits Suzuki and Cole. Not his development at center.
Might also benefit Dach to spend some time playing with real skill, so it benefits all three.
 

The Great Weal

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Funny enough, I think Suzuki is our most underrated player on these boards. It's like people forgot when he was our MVP after Price as a 20 year old by making the likes of Drouin and Armia look good in the playoffs, where it matters the most. Or in the regular season playing with the likes of Weal/Thompson/Cousins as a winger before moving up. You see him make a difference and create plays way more consistently than anyone else on the team. Can't wait until we have a dman that can actually make offensive plays to help him out. The best players in the league consistently make it clear how the defense is an integral part of their production.
 

Scriptor

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They shared the same number of minutes but I don't think anyone would have called Danault the #1 C. Nick led the team in scoring. You can make whatever argument you want about defense but the team goes out in any other round without scoring, where Danault contributed literally nothing.
Let's not insinuate I'm saying all defense no scoring for the habs with a 75-point C, a 70point C and a 50-point C as the first three Cs on the team.

I'm looking at a team that will score 3+ goals a game.
Why would you want Dach’s talent to be limited on the wing, not using his abilities fully?

It benefits Suzuki and Cole. Not his development at center.
It doesn't hurt Dach at all, especially if it's short term while we have a healthy Monahan around. Dach still acts like a play driver (as he would on C), builds his confidence by benefitting from the chemistry with both Caufield and Suzuki to produce more and establish himself as an offensive force, all while also sharing the defensive C assignments with Suzuki, depending who is first on the back check in the Habs' zone.

It gives time for Slafkovsky gain more experience and, perhaps allows Newhook timetotake next step forward in his production. And youngsters like Roy, Heineman (another for him) and Farrell get a pro season under their belts.

Next year, there are more genuine options readier to fallout the top-6 on the wing, with both Suzuki and Dach needing those to continue progressing in that role at that time.

It's definitely not a crippling move for Dach's development to start the season at RW and move back to C later on in the year when Monahan gets moved at the trade deadline, or if Monahan is injured once again.

Unless you're also in the group that believes all of Dach's best years will be behind him by the time he reaches the venerable age of 26!? If that's the case, I can understand the panic to stoke the fire as quickly as possible with just a few years left to squeeze out from that asset (FFS...).

There, some serious disconnect with reality in a few of you about developing players, IMO.

Dach won't forget, overnight, how to play C, especially since he will still share C responsibilities on the line with Suzuki, as he did last season while playing there. His return to C, later on in the season, when injuries hit hard, went smoothly and seamlessly, with Dach looking his best at C in a long while.

Why would you want Dach’s talent to be limited on the wing, not using his abilities fully?

It benefits Suzuki and Cole. Not his development at center.
BTW, where would you see Dach's talent being limited by playing with Caufield AND Suzuki on the wing? It might sound good to hear yourself say that, but now try to justify it by explaining it, please?
 

danisonfire

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Funny enough, I think Suzuki is our most underrated player on these boards. It's like people forgot when he was our MVP after Price as a 20 year old by making the likes of Drouin and Armia look good in the playoffs, where it matters the most. Or in the regular season playing with the likes of Weal/Thompson/Cousins as a winger before moving up. You see him make a difference and create plays way more consistently than anyone else on the team. Can't wait until we have a dman that can actually make offensive plays to help him out. The best players in the league consistently make it clear how the defense is an integral part of their production.

The guy led the team last year in Goals, Assists, Points, ES points, SH points, PP points, Shootout goals (5/7) and Gaming winning points while playing with an entire AHL team.

He set a career high in Goals and Points (tied career high for assists).

He had 46 ES points. Josh Anderson is number two with 27 ES points.
He had 66 points. Number two is Kirby Dach who had 38 points.

I personally don't understand it. The guy has 23 points (11 G, 12 A) in 32 career playoff games. He has been clutch pretty much anywhere he has gone. He was playing solo for a large portion of the season and set career highs with all the added pressure of being the Captain as well.
 
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Tyson

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The guy led the team last year in Goals, Assists, Points, ES points, SH points, PP points, Shootout goals (5/7) and Gaming winning points while playing with an entire AHL team.

He set a career high in Goals and Points (tied career high for assists).

He had 46 ES points. Josh Anderson is number two with 27 ES points.
He had 66 points. Number two is Kirby Dach who had 38 points.

I personally don't understand it. The guy has 23 points (11 G, 12 A) in 32 career playoff games. He has been clutch pretty much anywhere he has gone. He was playing solo for a large portion of the season and set career highs with all the added pressure of being the Captain as well.
Can't argue with anything you said.
 

BehindTheTimes

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Jun 24, 2018
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Funny enough, I think Suzuki is our most underrated player on these boards. It's like people forgot when he was our MVP after Price as a 20 year old by making the likes of Drouin and Armia look good in the playoffs, where it matters the most. Or in the regular season playing with the likes of Weal/Thompson/Cousins as a winger before moving up. You see him make a difference and create plays way more consistently than anyone else on the team. Can't wait until we have a dman that can actually make offensive plays to help him out. The best players in the league consistently make it clear how the defense is an integral part of their production.
He is easily our best player and the most underrated at the same time. He’s a number 1 center in my mind. The team and line mates he’s had have impacted his production, but he continues to increase production every year despite the tire fire around him while also being a beast all over the ice. He’s Patrice Bergeron light already imo and has even more offensive upside that Patrice.

The kid is dominate all over the ice and yes you can 100% win a cup with Nick Suzuki as your number 1 center. In fact, I think you have a better chance with Suzuki than a Matthews or any other player making more than 13 million. I’d take nNick at under 8million all day long.
 

Kaladin

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Nov 5, 2017
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This isn’t true in this instance. I’m often on the minority side when positions are taken. LG is salty because Cole lost the Cole/Nick poll where it wasn’t even close and he hasn’t been able to deal with it since.

I think Cole Caufield is going to be an elite sniper in this league, I believe Nick brings more to the table with his complete game. I don’t think it’s all that close to be honest. Nick does all the heavy lifting, Cole should be out producing Nick substantially in order to deliver value on the same level Nick does and so far they are almost neck and neck.
That's not what he had outlined in the post I was agreeing with. If that's the core of his position on this debate then sure I'm aligned with you. At this point for our team, Suzuki is more important to us.
 

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