Interestingly, Robertson with occasional 2nd unit PP scraps produced at a similar rate on the PP (3.98 P/60) as Caufield did on the 1st unit (4.28 P/60) last year.
Would be a really bad idea for Robertson to be wasted.
Confirmed with Link: Nick Robertson asks for trade (Update signs 1 year/875k deal with leafs)
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Would be a really bad idea for Robertson to be wasted.
Shooter2x
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Love his potential but at this point of his career he's a one trick pony who doesn't offer any of the systematic play needed to win games, hence why he's an easy bench even if he's scoring depth goals.
Informally: Get over yourself and prove it first. Spots are open.
Informally: Get over yourself and prove it first. Spots are open.
Hellcat
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Can we logically assume that no player of Robertsons status is going to be promised a NHL job? If we agree on that can we also agree that he should have no beef with the Leafs?
He waited till he had what he thinks is leverage. Him holding out and asking for a trade is miles apart from Nylander holding out for the first month-ish of the season. Nylander was an A+ prospect, he had leverage ... Nick is a C+ prospect, he has no leverage. Nick wants to be a pro, I think he thinks it's the Leafs holding him back because of some sort of prejudice towards his game, I would suggest it's Nick's poor defensive play that is holding him back. I think it is as simple as a guy looking for a fresh start.
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TheGroceryStick
Registered User
Putting in a trade request when you have a new coach, new systems, openings and a GM who that has preached young players fighting for spots - is telling.
He’s clearly worried that he’ll get lost in the fold with younger prospects (Cowan/Minten etc) pushing,older Marlies (McMann/Steeves) being ready to graduate and others (A.Nylander, likely PTOs) to make training camp competitive.
This is on Berube to assess. But Nick should be fired up to compete at camp, rather than posture for a new home (when the scenery here looks to promote his spot on this team)
He’s clearly worried that he’ll get lost in the fold with younger prospects (Cowan/Minten etc) pushing,older Marlies (McMann/Steeves) being ready to graduate and others (A.Nylander, likely PTOs) to make training camp competitive.
This is on Berube to assess. But Nick should be fired up to compete at camp, rather than posture for a new home (when the scenery here looks to promote his spot on this team)
Stringer Bell
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Marner in the same video still looks like teenager or a masculine woman. Sigh…
ULF_55
Moderator
Austin Watson signs PTO with Red Wings | TSN
Veteran forward Austin Watson has signed a professional tryout with the Detroit Red Wings ahead of September's training camp, his agency WD Sports & Entertainment announced on Wednesday.
www.tsn.ca
at the 1:40 mark and then at the 2:20 applies to all players, but especially the Robertsons.
Barry Trotz talk.
Looks like lots of fun in the land of make-belief where we pretend P/60 somehow directly translate to actual production if we just give the player the TOI that matches it.
Never actually works that way in reality, but atleast it's fun to pretend!
Never actually works that way in reality, but atleast it's fun to pretend!
Hellcat
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IMO the "lots of competition for LW" you mention is IMO due to a lot of players who bring the same sort of low production and low impact to the game not necessarily because there are a lot of quality competing for LW. Unfortunately IMO we are going to have 3rd and 4th liners, AHL tweeners and Old Grey Beards past their Best Before Date playing 1st and 2nd line LW ... I pray to god that Knies proves me wrong and has a break out year.
Robertson is holding out at the worst possible moment for his career. He literally has a path cleared for him to play 1st or 2nd line LW. If I recall correctly only Matthews had a better G/60 on the Leafs, I might be wrong on that
.Right , the better you produce the more minutes you get, the more minutes you get, the harder the competition, the harder the competition, the more likely your x/60 drops.
ULF_55
Moderator
IMO the "lots of competition for LW" you mention is IMO due to a lot of players who bring the same sort of low production and low impact to the game not necessarily because there are a lot of quality competing for LW. Unfortunately IMO we are going to have 3rd and 4th liners, AHL tweeners and Old Grey Beards past their Best Before Date playing 1st and 2nd line LW ... I pray to god that Knies proves me wrong and has a break out year.
Robertson is holding out at the worst possible moment for his career. He literally has a path cleared for him to play 1st or 2nd line LW. If I recall correctly only Matthews had a better G/60 on the Leafs, I might be wrong on that
Right , the better you produce the more minutes you get, the more minutes you get, the harder the competition, the harder the competition, the more likely your x/60 drops.
Additionally, Cowan, Minten, Grebenken are going to be in the mix.
Although, Grebenken is called a RW, half his highlights come from LW and he shoots left. Minten and Cowan both shoot left.
It isn't going to get easier, which, as a Leafs' fan, is a good thing.
Leafs fans don't want players given spots, we want them earned, and we want them guarded jealously when the player gets them. Leave no opening for someone to come in an take it.
From my understanding, he has an issue with development staff, I am not even sure it is around playing time (I'm sure it'd factor into it though).
We have worse players who are penciled in, so we can agree no one should be promised a job that is his level, but I am not sure the Leafs management agrees.
My issue is throwing away the career of one of our best prospects, I want to see it through because there is a lot of upside, he is 22, and he is our 2nd best prospect, he is not a C+ level prospect.
And if there is no way to mend the relationship, move him for whatever you can get.
Hurting his development only hurts his value to the team whether we trade him or not.
I know he doesn't bring as much to the game as someone like Knies or McMann, but he outscored both of them (PPG).
Bert and Domi barely had a higher PPG.
We need secondary scoring.
Just for reference, Mavrik Borque's stock just shot up due to putting up 1.08PPG as a 21 year old in the AHL.
Robertson was 1.22 last year at 22, and 1.00 at 21.
The offensive upside is there for him, it's so dumb to not try to make it work.
He had a better PPG than Knies and McMann while playing 11 minutes a night with average/bad players.
I think most people advocating for him are just hoping he gets a better look than what we've seen and think it is dumb to throw away a prospect like him.
The better linemates you get.
I think Robertson may put up a few more goals with the open space someone like Marner or Nylander could get him.
P/60 isn't pretend. It's just a slightly different way of representing the same data, with additional information added in. It's a good metric to help identify what raw point discrepancies actually represent. And while 5v5 depth production doesn't directly translate to increased roles and focus, through recorded history, PP production does actually correlate really well with PP ice time. To a really surprising extent.
Now, Robertson's sample is so tiny that it doesn't mean a whole lot, but this data does indicate two things:
1. The difference between the referenced players is not as vast as some have suggested.
2. While this holdout is clearly about more than past usage, Robertson has been deserving of greater opportunity, and he would be somewhat justified in feeling like he was underutilized last year, and that we didn't play to his strengths or maximize his potential.
I am curious how he is supposed to prove himself... he has done that in the OHL and AHL.
He's done it in the NHL too actually.
ACC1224
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Sign a contract would be the first step.
ULF_55
Moderator
He doesn't want to play for the Leafs.
He isn't under contract so I don't see a problem.
He isn't taking up any Cap Space, so he isn't blocking anyone.
Be great is someone gave him an offersheet around $3mm per, Leafs wouldn't match and he'd get out of Toronto. Be better if they gave him a 2nd. round pick level offersheet.
Clark4Ever
What we do in hockey echoes in eternity...
I don't understand why Robertson would be against giving it another chance under a new head coach? With our current roster, he should have ample opportunities to get more playing time.
Hellcat
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Great points, not uncommon for Euro's to play their off wing. Little Willie Jr. will probably give a good push for a roster spot, rumors Patches, JVR, Zadina (plays RW shoots left could play LW) either have offers (from unnamed teams) or are rumored to be in discussions with the Leafs, I've heard Yamaoto has had talk(s) with the Leafs and could be an option. There is no shortage of 10 to 15 goal wingers that are competing for the same roster spots. JVR would be nice for PP2, I remember him being a machine on the PP in front of the net tipping shots, not sure if the old fella still has the hand eye to be that guy tipping shots in front of the net, outside of JT, no really excels at that on the Leafs. Lot's of Meh! options at LW.
Imagine if he gets traded to NJ ... at that point we would just have to agree he is the most unlucky guy in the NHL
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Maybe he does want to give it another shot?
If the former Oilers players are worth an OS, I don’t understand why Robertson isn't also worth taking a chance on.
Hellcat
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He's done it in the NHL against lower end competition, with protected minutes, he gets abused when he plays against the top end talent. Not sure what he has proven TBH, he needs protected minutes to be effective.... maybe?
ULF_55
Moderator
Maybe it is the taxes he's paid on the $1.16 million he's made playing 87 games?
Big brother has made $14 million in tax free Texas.
ULF_55
Moderator
Maybe there have been offersheets, but at a low level that Leafs would match.
Perhaps, teams just don't see him the same way the Blues saw Holloway.
How many minutes has he played against top competition and what was the stats around his production?
What is the contract on the table?
I hate that we have so many insiders and they won't share information around the situation.
Do you mind sharing the plan they've laid out for how he will be used with the Leafs this year if he signed the contract as well.
ACC1224
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ULF_55
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That would be up to the coach.
Isn't that what it should be?
To retain his rights, $813k qualification as required in the CBA.
These are the rules all the players agree to abide by.
Rare Jewel
Patience
His QO?
Perhaps he wants more money, but that doesn't really seem like an issue that can't be bridged. The dude just wants to leave.
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