NHLPA investigating FORMER Leafs GM Dubas' agent for possible violation

[Superstar]

But poor taste is just form, its not a reflection of the substance of Shanahan's legitimacy. If what Shanahan relayed is true, that's monumental.

Now I've heard a few pundits say the same thing: Shanahan airing dirty laundry was poor form.

Ten years ago and beyond, sure. With today's media model I think hammering an unequivocal explanation for the fans and for everyone in the locker room was vital precisely because Dubas picked the arena for a fight Shanahan didn't know he was in.

So what we know is the following:

First Stage: Dubas and Shanahan agreed to an offer in principal that Shanahan forwarded based on Dubas' agent's communication. Dubas and Shanahan had a discussion about Dubas holding a presser to sidle alongside is battle-worn Coach and players; Shanahan...SHANAHAN...wanted Dubas to confirm the principally agreed upon deal before Dubas faced the public. Dubas...DUBAS...decided to move forward against Shanahan's advice which was predicated on finalizing Dubas as Toronto's GM.

Second Stage: Dubas holds the press conference and proceeds to cite a myriad of reasons and then states plainly that he's unsure he's going to stay with the Leafs or go on sabbatical. Per Shanahan's subsequent press conference, at that moment Shanahan reacted to the surprise revelation by shifting in thought to the idea PRESENTED BY DUBAS...that Dubas might not be back. Meanwhile, Shanahan never revoked his good faith offer and didn't react with a press conference or press release to counter Dubas' professed doubt.

Let that sink in...Despite claims to the contrary, Shanahan absorbed the blindside and allowed the previously agreed upon good faith offer to remain. Does that sound petty? Doesn't that read like precisely the reaction the media said they wanted after flipping the script on Shanahan post-Shanahan presser? But zero acknowledgment.

Third Stage: Thursday: Two full days with no communication from Dubas or his agent, Shanahan receives the counter offer. That's the second blindside...Three if you count two business days post-guerilla presser without confirmation or response. In the counter-offer we know there was a request for more money; Not a problem for MLSE on principal. Speculation has been that the counter offer included excised power from Shanahan's portfolio: Blindside #4. Good faith returned with a impersonal power grab is the height of insult in the situation Shanahan furnished for Dubas.

Next, Dubas apparently aware of what he's done - and we can only speculate here - emails Shanahan personally, steps over his agent's counter-offer and unequivocally states he wants to be the GM.

This is a good moment to pause and consider the four blindsides (in totality) that Shanahan is considering, mindful of the premise by which he folded Dubas into the organization, the choice of Dubas from other (better) options, and the stake his reputation and legacy had been invested upon...

Fifth Stage: Shanahan elects not to respond to Dubas's email or his agent's previous email and decides to sleep on his response.

Sixth Stage: Shanahan decides to drive over to Dubas' office -- now remember...Dubas couldn't be bothered to confirm a good faith agreement remotely in two business days, but could send a counter-offer through his agent the day before -- and inform Dubas that Toronto is heading in a different direction.

So...Given the events unravel as they have, I don't see where Shanahan's error in form or substance lies. I know echo chambers provide the appearance of safe opinion and that all the more raises my opinion of Shanahan bucking the politic approach all the more.

I think as time moves on, whether we rise or fall, at least there's a sense that bullshit isn't celebrated in Toronto. And I'll take that solidity and that sense of a spine returning over the constant unsustainable and relativistic "narratives" any old day.

Nothing against Steve Dangle and others, but if we're going to be a (hockey) culture of integrity that means taking a side and hammering the other on occasion when the other takes liberties and doing so while faulting you for not applauding their betrayal.

And dats da facts, Jack.

Edited to say: And if Pittsburgh is a real thing...Yikes: "Loyalty".

Great post, I agree.

One thing that many people don't catch is Dubas' arrogance in the press conference...they think he's so humble and vulnerable...if he was so undecided in his press conference whether he's coming back or not, he should not have mentioned anything about "everything is on the table" because it wouldn't be up to him to get rid of pieces in the core 4. It's as if he's telling the next GM or Shanahan what to do even if he's not around to be GM.

 

[The Apologist]

This team.... It just never ends....

 

[The Apologist]

But poor taste is just form, its not a reflection of the substance of Shanahan's legitimacy. If what Shanahan relayed is true, that's monumental.

Now I've heard a few pundits say the same thing: Shanahan airing dirty laundry was poor form.

Ten years ago and beyond, sure. With today's media model I think hammering an unequivocal explanation for the fans and for everyone in the locker room was vital precisely because Dubas picked the arena for a fight Shanahan didn't know he was in.

So what we know is the following:

First Stage: Dubas and Shanahan agreed to an offer in principal that Shanahan forwarded based on Dubas' agent's communication. Dubas and Shanahan had a discussion about Dubas holding a presser to sidle alongside is battle-worn Coach and players; Shanahan...SHANAHAN...wanted Dubas to confirm the principally agreed upon deal before Dubas faced the public. Dubas...DUBAS...decided to move forward against Shanahan's advice which was predicated on finalizing Dubas as Toronto's GM.

Second Stage: Dubas holds the press conference and proceeds to cite a myriad of reasons and then states plainly that he's unsure he's going to stay with the Leafs or go on sabbatical. Per Shanahan's subsequent press conference, at that moment Shanahan reacted to the surprise revelation by shifting in thought to the idea PRESENTED BY DUBAS...that Dubas might not be back. Meanwhile, Shanahan never revoked his good faith offer and didn't react with a press conference or press release to counter Dubas' professed doubt.

Let that sink in...Despite claims to the contrary, Shanahan absorbed the blindside and allowed the previously agreed upon good faith offer to remain. Does that sound petty? Doesn't that read like precisely the reaction the media said they wanted after flipping the script on Shanahan post-Shanahan presser? But zero acknowledgment.

Third Stage: Thursday: Two full days with no communication from Dubas or his agent, Shanahan receives the counter offer. That's the second blindside...Three if you count two business days post-guerilla presser without confirmation or response. In the counter-offer we know there was a request for more money; Not a problem for MLSE on principal. Speculation has been that the counter offer included excised power from Shanahan's portfolio: Blindside #4. Good faith returned with a impersonal power grab is the height of insult in the situation Shanahan furnished for Dubas.

Next, Dubas apparently aware of what he's done - and we can only speculate here - emails Shanahan personally, steps over his agent's counter-offer and unequivocally states he wants to be the GM.

This is a good moment to pause and consider the four blindsides (in totality) that Shanahan is considering, mindful of the premise by which he folded Dubas into the organization, the choice of Dubas from other (better) options, and the stake his reputation and legacy had been invested upon...

Fifth Stage: Shanahan elects not to respond to Dubas's email or his agent's previous email and decides to sleep on his response.

Sixth Stage: Shanahan decides to drive over to Dubas' office -- now remember...Dubas couldn't be bothered to confirm a good faith agreement remotely in two business days, but could send a counter-offer through his agent the day before -- and inform Dubas that Toronto is heading in a different direction.

So...Given the events unravel as they have, I don't see where Shanahan's error in form or substance lies. I know echo chambers provide the appearance of safe opinion and that all the more raises my opinion of Shanahan bucking the politic approach all the more.

I think as time moves on, whether we rise or fall, at least there's a sense that bullshit isn't celebrated in Toronto. And I'll take that solidity and that sense of a spine returning over the constant unsustainable and relativistic "narratives" any old day.

Nothing against Steve Dangle and others, but if we're going to be a (hockey) culture of integrity that means taking a side and hammering the other on occasion when the other takes liberties and doing so while faulting you for not applauding their betrayal.

And dats da facts, Jack.

Edited to say: And if Pittsburgh is a real thing...Yikes: "Loyalty".

Brilliantly written . Well done.
I actually felt Shanny handled it pretty poorly but this kinda puts it into a different light.

I do feel a little more concerned re Matthews now however. It just feels like the floor is about to fall out of this team.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Great post, I agree.

One thing that many people don't catch is Dubas' arrogance in the press conference...they think he's so humble and vulnerable...if he was so undecided in his press conference whether he's coming back or not, he should not have mentioned anything about "everything is on the table" because it wouldn't be up to him to get rid of pieces in the core 4. It's as if he's telling the next GM or Shanahan what to do even if he's not around to be GM.

At that point he was GM and was negotiating an extension. It was his job to think of the Leafs future. I think any new GM will walk in with nothing off the table an build their vision.

 

[Leaf Fans]

But poor taste is just form, its not a reflection of the substance of Shanahan's legitimacy. If what Shanahan relayed is true, that's monumental.

Now I've heard a few pundits say the same thing: Shanahan airing dirty laundry was poor form.

Ten years ago and beyond, sure. With today's media model I think hammering an unequivocal explanation for the fans and for everyone in the locker room was vital precisely because Dubas picked the arena for a fight Shanahan didn't know he was in.

So what we know is the following:

First Stage: Dubas and Shanahan agreed to an offer in principal that Shanahan forwarded based on Dubas' agent's communication. Dubas and Shanahan had a discussion about Dubas holding a presser to sidle alongside is battle-worn Coach and players; Shanahan...SHANAHAN...wanted Dubas to confirm the principally agreed upon deal before Dubas faced the public. Dubas...DUBAS...decided to move forward against Shanahan's advice which was predicated on finalizing Dubas as Toronto's GM.

Second Stage: Dubas holds the press conference and proceeds to cite a myriad of reasons and then states plainly that he's unsure he's going to stay with the Leafs or go on sabbatical. Per Shanahan's subsequent press conference, at that moment Shanahan reacted to the surprise revelation by shifting in thought to the idea PRESENTED BY DUBAS...that Dubas might not be back. Meanwhile, Shanahan never revoked his good faith offer and didn't react with a press conference or press release to counter Dubas' professed doubt.

Let that sink in...Despite claims to the contrary, Shanahan absorbed the blindside and allowed the previously agreed upon good faith offer to remain. Does that sound petty? Doesn't that read like precisely the reaction the media said they wanted after flipping the script on Shanahan post-Shanahan presser? But zero acknowledgment.

Third Stage: Thursday: Two full days with no communication from Dubas or his agent, Shanahan receives the counter offer. That's the second blindside...Three if you count two business days post-guerilla presser without confirmation or response. In the counter-offer we know there was a request for more money; Not a problem for MLSE on principal. Speculation has been that the counter offer included excised power from Shanahan's portfolio: Blindside #4. Good faith returned with a impersonal power grab is the height of insult in the situation Shanahan furnished for Dubas.

Next, Dubas apparently aware of what he's done - and we can only speculate here - emails Shanahan personally, steps over his agent's counter-offer and unequivocally states he wants to be the GM.

This is a good moment to pause and consider the four blindsides (in totality) that Shanahan is considering, mindful of the premise by which he folded Dubas into the organization, the choice of Dubas from other (better) options, and the stake his reputation and legacy had been invested upon...

Fifth Stage: Shanahan elects not to respond to Dubas's email or his agent's previous email and decides to sleep on his response.

Sixth Stage: Shanahan decides to drive over to Dubas' office -- now remember...Dubas couldn't be bothered to confirm a good faith agreement remotely in two business days, but could send a counter-offer through his agent the day before -- and inform Dubas that Toronto is heading in a different direction.

So...Given the events unravel as they have, I don't see where Shanahan's error in form or substance lies. I know echo chambers provide the appearance of safe opinion and that all the more raises my opinion of Shanahan bucking the politic approach all the more.

I think as time moves on, whether we rise or fall, at least there's a sense that bullshit isn't celebrated in Toronto. And I'll take that solidity and that sense of a spine returning over the constant unsustainable and relativistic "narratives" any old day.

Nothing against Steve Dangle and others, but if we're going to be a (hockey) culture of integrity that means taking a side and hammering the other on occasion when the other takes liberties and doing so while faulting you for not applauding their betrayal.

And dats da facts, Jack.

Edited to say: And if Pittsburgh is a real thing...Yikes: "Loyalty".

Yup, that is basically it based on Shannahan's version of events- the only one we have.

 

[Superstar]

Yup, that is basically it based on Shannahan's version of events- the only one we have.

Dubas did not even attempt to refute it if untrue.

 

[hockeyes]

Great post, I agree.

One thing that many people don't catch is Dubas' arrogance in the press conference...they think he's so humble and vulnerable...if he was so undecided in his press conference whether he's coming back or not, he should not have mentioned anything about "everything is on the table" because it wouldn't be up to him to get rid of pieces in the core 4. It's as if he's telling the next GM or Shanahan what to do even if he's not around to be GM.

Speaking of arrogance, Friedman said it was starting to circulate that Dubas was back before the reality came out. There is only 1 person who could start that rumor credibly, the guy who just finished emailing his boss that he "accepted" to continuing to run the Leafs. He 100% believed he had the team by the balls and they'd sign whatever he sent them.

 

[Superstar]

At that point he was GM and was negotiating an extension. It was his job to think of the Leafs future. I think any new GM will walk in with nothing off the table an build their vision.

He was undecided whether he wanted to be back...said he wanted to talk to his family about it. If he doesn't come back, he's in no position to make any moves with the core 4.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Dubas did not even attempt to refute it if untrue.

Yeah, Shannahan's is the version the only one we have. It might be true. Like you said, Dubas hasn't made a refutation.

 

[HofT]

Remember when we all believed the Leafs organization had the freedom to invest unlimited resources in management due to our significant wealth and because there's no cap to spend on management. Good times.

 

[Canadian Finn]

we still do.

dubas wasn't canned over money.

(isn't that kinda obvious?)

 

[Leaf Fans]

He hasn't been convicted yet. The documents might do him in though.

Remember when we all believed the Leafs organization had the freedom to invest unlimited resources in management due to our significant wealth and because there's no cap to spend on management. Good times.

They do have the freedom to invest whatever they want into their management. There is no outside cap.

 

[Donnie740]

Dubas did not even attempt to refute it if untrue.

Which pretty much confirms that everything Shannahan described was true.

 

[Superstar]

Which pretty much confirms that everything Shannahan described was true.

Yep, his shills would have demolished what Shanahan said in his presser if the things he said were untrue.

 

[Stephen]

Great post, I agree.

One thing that many people don't catch is Dubas' arrogance in the press conference...they think he's so humble and vulnerable...if he was so undecided in his press conference whether he's coming back or not, he should not have mentioned anything about "everything is on the table" because it wouldn't be up to him to get rid of pieces in the core 4. It's as if he's telling the next GM or Shanahan what to do even if he's not around to be GM.

I thought Dubas came across as arrogant as well, coming across with a very mixed message when it was clear that he had nothing to say (yet). Overly theatrical about the personal information, citing his priority on his family, yet neglecting to speak with them apparently, appearing to be undecided about the job in public while making proclamations about the franchise that would have been beyond the portfolio of a guy without a contract. It's like he assumed he had won the powerplay before any of it had been settled.

 

[Stephen]

Speaking of arrogance, Friedman said it was starting to circulate that Dubas was back before the reality came out. There is only 1 person who could start that rumor credibly, the guy who just finished emailing his boss that he "accepted" to continuing to run the Leafs. He 100% believed he had the team by the balls and they'd sign whatever he sent them.

Kind of like the rumored and forthcoming Auston Matthews take it or leave it offer. Brought to you by the geniuses at Wasserman.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Which pretty much confirms that everything Shannahan described was true.

No, it doesn't do that at all. Saying nothing means nothing.

 

[ITM]

Brilliantly written . Well done.
I actually felt Shanny handled it pretty poorly but this kinda puts it into a different light.

I do feel a little more concerned re Matthews now however. It just feels like the floor is about to fall out of this team.

I hear ya. I think I've made my peace that if a player is determined to put self before the club and at the expense of the club, really, its good riddance to bad rubbish. Its a non-starting point. And maybe, it really is just a numbers thing: For $13-$14M dollars, we can sign two quality pieces and move from there.

Even from the smell test, it kind of irks me that there's a possibility that Matthews and his agent are going to try and exploit us again. That spirit will just fester and mold in the locker room. And when I think about it, its got to repel clubs coming in that Matthews and Marner, talented as all-get-out as they are, transpose their talent into an err of entitlement without the measure of effort to justify it.

Babcock saw it when he said to Matthews something to the effect, "You're in trouble when your talent exceeds your work ethic...". Pegged Marner too. If it wasn't for Babcock's treatment of Johan Franzen I'd empathize with him a little more.

At any rate, don't know if the floor is going to fall out, but don't mind at all if the door is going to get kicked in.

 

[hfman]

First Stage: Dubas and Shanahan agreed to an offer in principal that Shanahan forwarded based on Dubas' agent's communication. Dubas and Shanahan had a discussion about Dubas holding a presser to sidle alongside is battle-worn Coach and players; Shanahan...SHANAHAN...wanted Dubas to confirm the principally agreed upon deal before Dubas faced the public. Dubas...DUBAS...decided to move forward against Shanahan's advice which was predicated on finalizing Dubas as Toronto's GM.

Second Stage: Dubas holds the press conference and proceeds to cite a myriad of reasons and then states plainly that he's unsure he's going to stay with the Leafs or go on sabbatical. Per Shanahan's subsequent press conference, at that moment Shanahan reacted to the surprise revelation by shifting in thought to the idea PRESENTED BY DUBAS...that Dubas might not be back. Meanwhile, Shanahan never revoked his good faith offer and didn't react with a press conference or press release to counter Dubas' professed doubt.

Not sure about some of this. See the bolded above.

Shanahan made it clear that he wanted Dubas to confirm their deal before holding a press conference.

But, Dubas ignored that, didn't confirm their deal and went out and held a press conference anyways - this is where it makes no sense.

Shanahan would have simply blocked the press conference. We can't say oh Shanahan didn't know about the conference... I mean come on the entire media was there of course he knows about the press conference. He'd just say sorry Dubas but you're not holding any press conference today. Media, you can all go home- there's nothing to see here today, sorry.

It doesn't add up

 

[ITM]

Not sure about some of this. See the bolded above.

Shanahan made it clear that he wanted Dubas to confirm their deal before holding a press conference.

But, Dubas ignored that, didn't confirm their deal and went out and held a press conference anyways - this is where it makes no sense.

Shanahan would have simply blocked the press conference. We can't say oh Shanahan didn't know about the conference... I mean come on the entire media was there of course he knows about the press conference. He'd just say sorry Dubas but you're not holding any press conference today. Media, you can all go home- there's nothing to see here today, sorry.

It doesn't add up

I'm not following. You correctly quoted me but inferred incorrectly: First bolded is what I said.

Second bolded. Check.

Third bolded: I didn't say Shanahan didn't know about the conference. Of course he was aware it could happen, but what he was blindsided by was the content Dubas provided.

I'm not sure what distinction you're making from my post.

 

[hfman]

What I mean is that the press conference would have never happened in the first place.

Shanahan was expecting Dubas to confirm their deal before Dubas held a press conference. So when Shanahan realised Dubas was holding a press conference but also had no confirmation of a deal, he would simply step in and cancel the press conference altogether.

"Dubas, I asked you to confirm our deal before holding any press conferences. You haven't confirmed, so I'm not allowing this press conference until we agree in principle first."

 

[Apex Predator]

I hear ya. I think I've made my peace that if a player is determined to put self before the club and at the expense of the club, really, its good riddance to bad rubbish. Its a non-starting point. And maybe, it really is just a numbers thing: For $13-$14M dollars, we can sign two quality pieces and move from there.

Even from the smell test, it kind of irks me that there's a possibility that Matthews and his agent are going to try and exploit us again. That spirit will just fester and mold in the locker room. And when I think about it, its got to repel clubs coming in that Matthews and Marner, talented as all-get-out as they are, transpose their talent into an err of entitlement without the measure of effort to justify it.

Babcock saw it when he said to Matthews something to the effect, "You're in trouble when your talent exceeds your work ethic...". Pegged Marner too. If it wasn't for Babcock's treatment of Johan Franzen I'd empathize with him a little more.

At any rate, don't know if the floor is going to fall out, but don't mind at all if the door is going to get kicked in.

He had the right read on those guys. He was hard on them and when they played bad he benched them or rightfully called them out. Since he left they’ve been cuddled and allowed to get away with anything. The one time Keefe called them out he had to apologize to them the next day.

 

[ITM]

What I mean is that the press conference would have never happened in the first place.

Shanahan was expecting Dubas to confirm their deal before Dubas held a press conference. So when Shanahan realised Dubas was holding a press conference but also had no confirmation of a deal, he would simply step in and cancel the press conference altogether.

"Dubas, I asked you to confirm our deal before holding any press conferences. You haven't confirmed, so I'm not allowing this press conference until we agree in principle first."

I’m still not following.

Shanahan didn’t know what Dubas was going to say so there wouldnt be (and wasn’t) a reason to stop Dubas from speaking.

Dubas doubting his return publicly was a surprise to Shanahan.

So…To the idea that the press conference never would have happened, I apologize, but I’m not sure what your take is trying to say.

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

Hate this guy as a GM but only to actual reasons.

This looks well planted just to make his name look bad. Not buying it.

Why even stoop to this level anyways, his results alone make him look bad, you don't need to do anything extra

 

[Donnie740]

Dubas was extremely overdr

I thought Dubas came across as arrogant as well, coming across with a very mixed message when it was clear that he had nothing to say (yet). Overly theatrical about the personal information, citing his priority on his family, yet neglecting to speak with them apparently, appearing to be undecided about the job in public while making proclamations about the franchise that would have been beyond the portfolio of a guy without a contract. It's like he assumed he had won the powerplay before any of it had been settled.

Agree 100% - - Dubas was very over dramatic in his ridiculous press conference.

Reminded me of that farcical interview Terrell Owens did years back when he was with Dallas and brought out the fake tears while repeating “that’s my quarterback” in reference to the no-talent Tony Blow Mo.