NHLPA investigating FORMER Leafs GM Dubas' agent for possible violation

[Petrus]

Clearly Dubie wasn't "in" .. that was my point .. he and Shanny clearly had major differences of opinion .. no one knows what they are yet .. and likely it is some combination of compensation, player roster, drafting, team culture, relationships, etc .. and how did anyone find out who Dubie's agent was????????????????????? .. clearly Shanny was negotiating with him .. and from Shanny's own words he was not happy with how that played out .. it is pretty easy to put 2 and 2 together here .. to me da whole thing is playground stuff .. I would have expected better from Leafs .. divorces are never easy but they can be handled professionally

I would think it is fairly is easy for any journalist to determine who Dubas appointed as his agent.


The information could be obtained by asking Dubas, Shanny or any of the agencies in the NHL.

It more likely that a competitor agency brought this up to put into question the integrity of another agency rather than a Dubas smear campaign by MLSE.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Dekes is still on the case in here saying Dubas is not under investigation when Seravalli implicates him directly.

What are you even talking about? That's not what I said and that's not what Seravelli said. The situation was merely stated to be under review to ensure no conflicts, and then a bunch of HFboards posters twisted that into some massive conspiracy.

He is also saying this is the first year that all of them are eligible for NMC's which is untrue as well, considering they were drafted in different years.

When they were drafted is irrelevant. It's how many years towards UFA status they have accrued. This coming year is the first year that all of them were eligible for trade protections. Matthews and Marner joined the team in 2016-2017, and they fulfilled their 7 year requirement this year. Nylander joined the team in 2015-2016, but did not play the 40 games necessary for it to count as a year towards UFA status, meaning that his first year towards that was 2016-2017, the same as Matthews/Marner.

 

[Dekes For Days]

It is unlikely there is any conflict but we do not know with absolute certainty if there is no conflict of interest.

I sill haven't even heard an actual valid argument about what the conflict of interest could even be. Just weird convoluted conspiracy theories that don't even line up with the facts.

 

[ITM]

Clearly Dubie wasn't "in" .. that was my point .. he and Shanny clearly had major differences of opinion .. no one knows what they are yet .. and likely it is some combination of compensation, player roster, drafting, team culture, relationships, etc .. and how did anyone find out who Dubie's agent was????????????????????? .. clearly Shanny was negotiating with him .. and from Shanny's own words he was not happy with how that played out .. it is pretty easy to put 2 and 2 together here .. to me da whole thing is playground stuff .. I would have expected better from Leafs .. divorces are never easy but they can be handled professionally

It reads like you're denying distinction though.

Shanahan waited for Dubas to confirm an offer he accepted in principal. Dubas and his agent countered. Dubas apparently then flanked his own counter late in the day. And all of this, after publicizing what seems on the face of it as a very thorough examination that concluded in doubt as to whether or not he'd remain.

Again...What in Shanahan's claim is baseless?

 

[GoonieFace]

"A man who represents himself has a fool for a client".

Can't remember who said it.

I believe it was Jackie Childs

 

[Mess]

Their trade protection started as soon as they were eligible, like basically every other notable RFA in the league.

True, but if your getting 8 years service buying 4 years of UFA from a player, verses only 1 year on a 5 year deal, and walking them up to free agency as at 26 year old there is quite a bit of a difference here.

The longer the contract the more leverage, and so a player would want a say in his future by investing in it long term, if he isn't then the Team has more control of his future on a shorter contract.

A short term deal is not in the best interest of the Leafs only the player, so to allow him without that commitment to dictate the outcome entirely is where the problem arises. Matthews full NMC no move clause gives him 100% control in the final year and his employers 0% and any organization would frown upon the "Inmates running the Asylum" set-up where an employee has more say then their employer, and the ones that sign their cheques.

William Nylander is in the very same shoes as Matthews and Marner, however Willy only received a limited NTC (no trade) where he submits a 10 team list he is not willing to be traded to. Why are Matthews and Marner contracts not the same due the same length of commitment by the player?

If AM and MM also had limited NTC clauses kicking in July 1st, the Leafs organization would not be in this predicament today, with far more options in the coming years to make ownership decisions and team direction.

 

[ToDavid]

William Nylander is in the very same shoes as Matthews and Marner, however Willy only received a limited NTC (no trade) where he submits a 10 team list he is not willing to be traded to. Why are Matthews and Marner contracts not the same due the same length of commitment by the player?

Will had a career high of 60 points when he signed his contract. He burned a year off his ELC in 2016 and so didn’t have the same runway (but benefitted from moving past his ELC earlier).

I’m also not here to tell you who earned what level of trade protection and whether someone should have had a NTC or NMC. I was just pointing out the timing has nothing to do with Dubas, their trade protection kicks in as soon as they’re eligible which is par for the course for virtually every big name RFA contract.

 

[Squiffy]

This really is kind of sketchy. Dubas has been life long friends with this agent. This agent was in that firm during the Matthews contract signing. Matthews was given that contract during the season without any real tough negotiations. They sort of just gave him what he wanted.

Darren Ferris said this shortly after the Matthews contract was announced: “That’s probably the best contract in the NHL."

Matthew Tkachuck said that Matthews contract set the bar and changed the contract landscape.

Then there was that athletic article where a whole bunch of anonymous gm's vented their frustration about the Matthews contract. I think it's forgotten just how much the Matthews contract rattled the entire NHL. Friedman said the Matthews contract changed everything. There's this athletic article showing just how important the Matthews contract for rfa's going forward and how much it hurts gm's leverage.

How the Matthews deal shifts the market for the next group of star RFAs

The Matthews contract is a game-changer for players coming out of entry-level contracts. Craig Custance chats with agents and executives to get the impact.

theathletic.com

So this isn't just another contract. We're talking about a GROUNDBREAKING contract that shocked the entire hockey world and changed things forever. And Dubas has a bestie that works as his agent in the same firm that "negotiated" this groundbreaking contract.

I'd also like to point out something strange in the Shanahan press conference. He specifically points out that Dubas let him know who his agent is, and that Shanahan met him for the first time. And then less than 30 seconds later Shanahan said that his opinion on the whole matter changed on a dime. Everyone found it strange. Why did Shanahan go from "Let's sign Dubas as quick as we can" to "We're going in another direction." I don't think it was the "family" stuff. I don't think it was the renegotiation. I think Shanahan new that this new agent/matthews situation was a very VERY bad look.

I mean, the article itself notes that Crosby, Malkin, Kane, Toews all signed 5 year deals come off their ELC's and it's kind of a throwback to those after Edm changed the market with 8 year deals for the 17 1st overalls they had through the system.

The only really unique thing about it was structuring it as the league minimum base salary with everything else dumped in to signing bonus, that only a few teams could really afford to do.

 

[Dekes For Days]

True, but if your getting 8 years service buying 4 years of UFA from a player, verses only 1 year on a 5 year deal, and walking them up to free agency as a 26 year old there is quite a bit of a difference here.

Top-end RFAs getting NMCs/NTCs when eligible is not unusual, whether it's a 5 year term, 8, or anywhere in between.

William Nylander is in the very same shoes as Matthews and Marner, however Willy only received a limited NTC (no trade) where he submits a 10 team list he is not willing to be traded to. Why are Matthews and Marner contracts not the same due the same length of commitment by the player?

Because it had nothing to do with length of contract. It had to do with quality of player, and Matthews/Marner were in another tier that gets those protections.

 

[Mess]

Will had a career high of 60 points when he signed his contract. He burned a year off his ELC in 2016 and so didn’t have the same runway (but benefitted from moving past his ELC earlier).

I’m also not here to tell you who earned what level of trade protection and whether someone should have had a NTC or NMC. I was just pointing out the timing has nothing to do with Dubas, their trade protection kicks in as soon as they’re eligible which is par for the course for virtually every big name RFA contract.

Lets look at the 2 most recent signings David Pastrnak and Nathan MacKinnon both just finished top 5 in NHL scoring.

Lets review the previous contracts prior.

Pastrnak

MacKinnon

Only after he agreed to his new extension did the final year become a full NMC prior to it was just a limited M-NTC with organization having options to deal him.

Even a player like Leon Draisaitl who signed for 8 years didn't get a full NMC only a limited on with the team still having options but the player having some say.

So some of the best and highest scoring players in the game didn't get the Matthews and Marner full NMC.

 

[Dekes For Days]

So some of the best and highest scoring players in the game didn't get the Matthews and Marner full NMC.

That is incredibly misleading. While the 3 players you cherry picked (while ignoring the countless examples of top-end RFAs getting the same protections as Matthews/Marner) may be among the best and highest scoring players in the game today, they were not when they signed their previous contracts 6-7 years ago, which is why they got slightly lesser protections at that time.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Lets look at the 2 most recent signings David Pastrnak and Nathan MacKinnon both just finished top 5 in NHL scoring.

View attachment 712987

Lets review the previous contracts prior.

Pastrnak

View attachment 712991

MacKinnon

View attachment 712988

Only after he agreed to his new extension did the final year become a full NMC prior to it was just a limited M-NTC with organization having options to deal him.

Even a player like Leon Draisaitl who signed for 8 years didn't get a full NMC only a limited on with the team still having options but the player having some say.

View attachment 712995

So some of the best and highest scoring players in the game didn't get the Matthews and Marner full NMC.

Well, Dubas is a giver. He can't help himself...

 

[Hellcat]

 

[ToDavid]

Lets look at the 2 most recent signings David Pastrnak and Nathan MacKinnon both just finished top 5 in NHL scoring.

View attachment 712987

Lets review the previous contracts prior.

Pastrnak

View attachment 712991

MacKinnon

View attachment 712988

Only after he agreed to his new extension did the final year become a full NMC prior to it was just a limited M-NTC with organization having options to deal him.

Even a player like Leon Draisaitl who signed for 8 years didn't get a full NMC only a limited on with the team still having options but the player having some say.

View attachment 712995

So some of the best and highest scoring players in the game didn't get the Matthews and Marner full NMC.

I'm not sure what connection you're trying to make about Pastrnak/Mackinnon's performances this season and contracts they signed 6-7 years ago.

And again, I'm not trying to argue with you about who deserves a NMC vs. a limited NTC. My entire point was about the timing of their trade protection, which is entirely normal.

In any event, NMCs are not that rare. Tampa basically built their cup teams off NMCs.

 

[Donnie740]

It’s comical how the few remaining members here of the Dubas Fan Boi Club continue to insist their idol isn’t under investigation, despite all the news headlines and panel discussions acknowledging it.

It’s entirely possible that nothing comes from the investigation, but it’s going to be absolutely hilarious if Dubas gets suspended.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

It reads like you're denying distinction though.

Shanahan waited for Dubas to confirm an offer he accepted in principal. Dubas and his agent countered. Dubas apparently then flanked his own counter late in the day. And all of this, after publicizing what seems on the face of it as a very thorough examination that concluded in doubt as to whether or not he'd remain.

Again...What in Shanahan's claim is baseless?

I think both sides have played this out through media in very poor taste .. da truth is always da best way .. just tell folks look we could not make it work out and part ways professionally .. playing it out in press is brutal

 

[KMNRB]

"Daily Faceoff quoted an anonymous agent who insisted that union rules are quite clear — reps for a company that handles players are prohibited from taking management clients. That is a condition of certification explained to all agents in 2022. Dubas was himself an agent for a brief time."

Uh oh....

Here is the link to the article:

NHLPA reviewing Kyle Dubas’ relationship with agent for potential conflict of interest

The NHLPA prohibits certified agents from providing services to officers of NHL clubs, but Dubas’ agent is not NHLPA certified.

www.dailyfaceoff.com

And the quote
// Multiple NHL certified agents at rival agencies say the issue is cut and dried.

“This is clearly prohibited under the regulations,” one long-time agent said on Thursday, requesting anonymity because he was not authorized to speak on behalf of his firm. “It is an unwritten, understood and longstanding practice that your guy down the hall doesn’t work for the other side. I’d like the NHLPA to launch an investigation and draw their own conclusion.”

...

According to several agents, the NHLPA informed the agent community back in 2022 this prohibition would be strictly enforced going forward. Agents are asked to affirm their adherence to those regulations annually to renew their certification. //

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I mean, the article itself notes that Crosby, Malkin, Kane, Toews all signed 5 year deals come off their ELC's and it's kind of a throwback to those after Edm changed the market with 8 year deals for the 17 1st overalls they had through the system.

The only really unique thing about it was structuring it as the league minimum base salary with everything else dumped in to signing bonus, that only a few teams could really afford to do.

Why didn't that come with a decrease in aav? Like some of those agents and gm's said, Matthews was given the flat out most player friendly contract in the league.

Sure, maybe the teams were getting the upper hand on these contracts and Matthews brought things back to where they were 10 years prior. Ok. Is it, you know... a little suspicious that the gm/agent tandem that were a part of that were the only gm/agent tandem in the entire league with a conflict of interest? lol

 

[tmlms13]

Why would the NHLPA care at all about this. They should be happy that a GM and Player have the same agent, get more player-friendly deals.

It's the owners and the league that should be pissed.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

It’s comical how the few remaining members here of the Dubas Fan Boi Club continue to insist their idol isn’t under investigation, despite all the news headlines and panel discussions acknowledging it.

It’s entirely possible that nothing comes from the investigation, but it’s going to be absolutely hilarious if Dubas gets suspended.

The whole thing is pretty suspect but let's face it, nothing will happen with Dubas. If anything, his agent/buddy will get a slap on the wrist and be told to stick to golfers.

Hoping the last remaining Dubas plugs can piss off onto the Penguins board soon.

 

[Squiffy]

Why didn't that come with a decrease in aav? Like some of those agents and gm's said, Matthews was given the flat out most player friendly contract in the league.

Sure, maybe the teams were getting the upper hand on these contracts and Matthews brought things back to where they were 10 years prior. Ok. Is it, you know... a little suspicious that the gm/agent tandem that were a part of that were the only gm/agent tandem in the entire league with a conflict of interest? lol

I mean, I'm not arguing they were great contracts. To be sure I was disappointed they weren't longer terms.

AAV on Matthews I was fine with. Marner surprised me, I was thinking 9-10 range, certainly not a rounding error short of $11. Nylander was always a good number.

Disappointing on most fronts, but I just don't find anything suspicious in them.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

I mean, I'm not arguing they were great contracts. To be sure I was disappointed they weren't longer terms.

AAV on Matthews I was fine with. Marner surprised me, I was thinking 9-10 range, certainly not a rounding error short of $11. Nylander was always a good number.

Disappointing on most fronts, but I just don't find anything suspicious in them.

Matthews at 5 years, at that cap hit was a huge mistake. McDavid signed for just a little more for the full 8 years, there was absolutely ZERO excuse to bend over and let Matthews' agent have his way with you.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I mean, I'm not arguing they were great contracts. To be sure I was disappointed they weren't longer terms.

AAV on Matthews I was fine with. Marner surprised me, I was thinking 9-10 range, certainly not a rounding error short of $11. Nylander was always a good number.

Disappointing on most fronts, but I just don't find anything suspicious in them.

Well, I thought there was something fishy right off the bat. To now know that Dubas lifetime bestie was an agent at the same firm that gave out that unprecedented Matthews contract says all I need to know. I made a post a few pages back highlighting how the entire NHL landscape was bewildered by the contract. Players, agents, and other gm's all saying that it literally is the contract that will change things going forward. And the agent/gm that pulled that off had a conflict of interest.

I was suspicious of this right from the contracts being penned. Here's a post I made in 2019. Just pure straight lucid information. No histrionics or melodrama. That's not my style.

I want Dubas INVESTIGATED!!!

How DARE he do this to us.
How Dare he!!!!

These overpayments aren’t just incompetence at this point. It’s clearly more than that. INVESTIGATE him.

I think it's my well-mannered and cool headed style that makes my argumentation strategy so convincing. Truly a way with words.

Kyle Dubas appreciation / hot seat discussion ***Mod warning in OP***

Dubas is an idiot. But the damage is done and the only thing we can hope for is he'll be fired within the next 2-3 years and let a real GM handle the next wave of contracts.

forums.hfboards.com

 

[ITM]

I think both sides have played this out through media in very poor taste .. da truth is always da best way .. just tell folks look we could not make it work out and part ways professionally .. playing it out in press is brutal

But poor taste is just form, its not a reflection of the substance of Shanahan's legitimacy. If what Shanahan relayed is true, that's monumental.

Now I've heard a few pundits say the same thing: Shanahan airing dirty laundry was poor form.

Ten years ago and beyond, sure. With today's media model I think hammering an unequivocal explanation for the fans and for everyone in the locker room was vital precisely because Dubas picked the arena for a fight Shanahan didn't know he was in.

So what we know is the following:

First Stage: Dubas and Shanahan agreed to an offer in principal that Shanahan forwarded based on Dubas' agent's communication. Dubas and Shanahan had a discussion about Dubas holding a presser to sidle alongside is battle-worn Coach and players; Shanahan...SHANAHAN...wanted Dubas to confirm the principally agreed upon deal before Dubas faced the public. Dubas...DUBAS...decided to move forward against Shanahan's advice which was predicated on finalizing Dubas as Toronto's GM.

Second Stage: Dubas holds the press conference and proceeds to cite a myriad of reasons and then states plainly that he's unsure he's going to stay with the Leafs or go on sabbatical. Per Shanahan's subsequent press conference, at that moment Shanahan reacted to the surprise revelation by shifting in thought to the idea PRESENTED BY DUBAS...that Dubas might not be back. Meanwhile, Shanahan never revoked his good faith offer and didn't react with a press conference or press release to counter Dubas' professed doubt.

Let that sink in...Despite claims to the contrary, Shanahan absorbed the blindside and allowed the previously agreed upon good faith offer to remain. Does that sound petty? Doesn't that read like precisely the reaction the media said they wanted after flipping the script on Shanahan post-Shanahan presser? But zero acknowledgment.

Third Stage: Thursday: Two full days with no communication from Dubas or his agent, Shanahan receives the counter offer. That's the second blindside...Three if you count two business days post-guerilla presser without confirmation or response. In the counter-offer we know there was a request for more money; Not a problem for MLSE on principal. Speculation has been that the counter offer included excised power from Shanahan's portfolio: Blindside #4. Good faith returned with a impersonal power grab is the height of insult in the situation Shanahan furnished for Dubas.

Next, Dubas apparently aware of what he's done - and we can only speculate here - emails Shanahan personally, steps over his agent's counter-offer and unequivocally states he wants to be the GM.

This is a good moment to pause and consider the four blindsides (in totality) that Shanahan is considering, mindful of the premise by which he folded Dubas into the organization, the choice of Dubas from other (better) options, and the stake his reputation and legacy had been invested upon...

Fifth Stage: Shanahan elects not to respond to Dubas's email or his agent's previous email and decides to sleep on his response.

Sixth Stage: Shanahan decides to drive over to Dubas' office -- now remember...Dubas couldn't be bothered to confirm a good faith agreement remotely in two business days, but could send a counter-offer through his agent the day before -- and inform Dubas that Toronto is heading in a different direction.

So...Given the events unravel as they have, I don't see where Shanahan's error in form or substance lies. I know echo chambers provide the appearance of safe opinion and that all the more raises my opinion of Shanahan bucking the politic approach all the more.

I think as time moves on, whether we rise or fall, at least there's a sense that bullshit isn't celebrated in Toronto. And I'll take that solidity and that sense of a spine returning over the constant unsustainable and relativistic "narratives" any old day.

Nothing against Steve Dangle and others, but if we're going to be a (hockey) culture of integrity that means taking a side and hammering the other on occasion when the other takes liberties and doing so while faulting you for not applauding their betrayal.

And dats da facts, Jack.

Edited to say: And if Pittsburgh is a real thing...Yikes: "Loyalty".

 

[Ciao]

True, but if your getting 8 years service buying 4 years of UFA from a player, verses only 1 year on a 5 year deal, and walking them up to free agency as at 26 year old there is quite a bit of a difference here.

The longer the contract the more leverage, and so a player would want a say in his future by investing in it long term, if he isn't then the Team has more control of his future on a shorter contract.

A short term deal is not in the best interest of the Leafs only the player, so to allow him without that commitment to dictate the outcome entirely is where the problem arises. Matthews full NMC no move clause gives him 100% control in the final year and his employers 0% and any organization would frown upon the "Inmates running the Asylum" set-up where an employee has more say then their employer, and the ones that sign their cheques.

William Nylander is in the very same shoes as Matthews and Marner, however Willy only received a limited NTC (no trade) where he submits a 10 team list he is not willing to be traded to. Why are Matthews and Marner contracts not the same due the same length of commitment by the player?

If AM and MM also had limited NTC clauses kicking in July 1st, the Leafs organization would not be in this predicament today, with far more options in the coming years to make ownership decisions and team direction.

NMCs are irrelevant.

Without trade protection, no other team is giving full value for an unsigned expiring UFA. Either the player agrees to an extension or theres no real to speak of. Maybe table scraps, that's all.