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League News: NHL Talk - (News n' Scores n' Stuff) | 2023-24 Regular Season Edition

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traparatus said:
Don't let facts get in the way of a good narative, though.
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Facts like he's gotten 149 games, and 21 points out of 22 guys drafted since 2019? (ignoring 2023) and it's really only two players that have played any time at all at an NHL level. GMBM's 2019 draft alone dwarfs that. 292 games, 68 points, out of just 3 guys drafted in 2019, guys who've notedly been held up by an aging core from graduating the last 2 years. Or how about his big trades being an old Ekholm and I guess Ethan Bear? Oh, no wait, it's gotta be his huge free agent signings....which really only amount to Zach Hyman?

He has the literal best player in the world, maybe one of the greatest of all time, and the arguable second best center in the world on one team. He has drafted basically no impact players, he's not traded for really any true impact players, and he's signed one free agent who (albeit good) is entirely redundant when you've got McDavid and Drai in front of them.

If anything, them having less wins and higher picks then the Caps who's core is so much older in comparison is laughable. I'm also curious how we had 8 first round picks in 5 years, but okay.
 
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Brian23 said:
Facts like he's gotten 149 games, and 21 points out of 22 guys drafted since 2019? (ignoring 2023) and it's really only two players that have played any time at all at an NHL level. GMBM's 2019 draft alone dwarfs that. 292 games, 68 points, out of just 3 guys drafted in 2019, guys who've notedly been held up by an aging core from graduating the last 2 years. Or how about his big trades being an old Ekholm and I guess Ethan Bear? Oh, no wait, it's gotta be his huge free agent signings....which really only amount to Zach Hyman?

He has the literal best player in the world, maybe one of the greatest of all time, and the arguable second best center in the world on one team. He has drafted basically no impact players, he's not traded for really any true impact players, and he's signed one free agent who (albeit good) is entirely redundant when you've got McDavid and Drai in front of them.

If anything, them having less wins and higher picks then the Caps who's core is so much older in comparison is laughable. I'm also curious how we had 8 first round picks in 5 years, but okay.
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Who has 68 points from 2019? That can't be right.

I should have clarified that the picks were all 1st round picks in respective GM's time at their teams. I was addressing the statement that Caps were 'perennial playoff contender and drafting in the 20s and 30s' and Oilers 'sucked for most of Holland's tenure'. Both GMs have performed just about the same in their time with Oilers/Caps respectively and have drafted in very similar positions. Neither one has much of anything to show for their drafting.

It's odd that people laud acquisition of Oshie but Hyman is... what? Is that the same Zach Hyman who put up an 83 point season last year, to follow up his 27g/27a year? Niskanen/Orpik are a stroke of genious but 'old' Ekholm is irrelevant. Holland has McDavid/Draisatl so I guess BMac walking into a core of Ovechkin/Backstrom/Carlson/Kuznetsov/Orlov/Holtby doesn't count for much.

Some folks on here need to lay off the Brian juice. Ya all made me type up 5 posts defending Ken Holland and should be ashamed of yourselves.
 
traparatus said:
Who has 68 points from 2019? That can't be right.

I should have clarified that the picks were all 1st round picks in respective GM's time at their teams. I was addressing the statement that Caps were 'perennial playoff contender and drafting in the 20s and 30s' and Oilers 'sucked for most of Holland's tenure'. Both GMs have performed just about the same in their time with Oilers/Caps respectively and have drafted in very similar positions. Neither one has much of anything to show for their drafting.

It's odd that people laud acquisition of Oshie but Hyman is... what? Is that the same Zach Hyman who put up an 83 point season last year, to follow up his 27g/27a year? Niskanen/Orpik are a stroke of genious but 'old' Ekholm is irrelevant. Holland has McDavid/Draisatl so I guess BMac walking into a core of Ovechkin/Backstrom/Carlson/Kuznetsov/Orlov/Holtby doesn't count for much.

Some folks on here need to lay off the Brian juice. Ya all made me type up 5 posts defending Ken Holland and should be ashamed of yourselves.
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68 points between 3 players. McMichael, Protas, and Leason.

And I said Hyman was a good acquisition, but he was redundant. What's the point of another point getting centerman when you already have the two best centers in the game? Those guys need help and complimentary players, and to top it off that team seemingly has gotten worse with him. We traded Brouwer for Oshie and, not only did he change the culture, but he helped push the team forward to dominating the league for most of his tenure here. Ekholm goes to Oilers and their defense is still atrocious, Brooks and Niskanen show up and our defense suddenly became a point of strength for this team.

Like, I don't even know how you can be blinded by hating GMBM this much. He has one impact free agent, no draft picks, one meh trade, in his 5 years with a literal generational talent and a 2nd best center and arguable top 5 player in the league. Drai is probably walking after this year, and McDavid probably right after him. Like, they have an arguable better version of Crosby and Malkin in their prime and they're one of the worst in the league. What world is that not a colossal failure?
 
Brian23 said:
68 points between 3 players. McMichael, Protas, and Leason.

And I said Hyman was a good acquisition, but he was redundant. What's the point of another point getting centerman when you already have the two best centers in the game? Those guys need help and complimentary players, and to top it off that team seemingly has gotten worse with him. We traded Brouwer for Oshie and, not only did he change the culture, but he helped push the team forward to dominating the league for most of his tenure here. Ekholm goes to Oilers and their defense is still atrocious, Brooks and Niskanen show up and our defense suddenly became a point of strength for this team.

Like, I don't even know how you can be blinded by hating GMBM this much. He has one impact free agent, no draft picks, one meh trade, in his 5 years with a literal generational talent and a 2nd best center and arguable top 5 player in the league. Drai is probably walking after this year, and McDavid probably right after him. Like, they have an arguable better version of Crosby and Malkin in their prime and they're one of the worst in the league. What world is that not a colossal failure?
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56 points is what those 3 have. It's not overly important, though. Also, Hyman is not a center. You must be confusing him with someone else. He is pretty much an Oshie clone.

I don't hate GMBM. I just don't elevate him into some superior category. Holland and BMac are in the same group of GMs for me. They make moves that I can understand, even when I don't agree with them. Well, most of the time they do.

Again, I don't know how many times I have to say this. BMac and Holland have damn near identical regular season and playoff record in their time with Caps/Oilers. Yes, that includes Oilers poopy start to the season. Of course, there are differences between franchises and the type of situations that the two GMs walked into. BMac did a really good job refining the roster that he inherited from McPhee but it was a very strong group to begin with. It's easier to improve Carlson/Alzner/Orlov/Holtby/Grubauer than Nurse/Klefbom/Larsson/Russel/Koskinen, don't you think? Especially when Klefbom is forced into retirement shortly after Holland's arrival.
 
traparatus said:
56 points is what those 3 have. It's not overly important, though. Also, Hyman is not a center. You must be confusing him with someone else. He is pretty much an Oshie clone.

I don't hate GMBM. I just don't elevate him into some superior category. Holland and BMac are in the same group of GMs for me. They make moves that I can understand, even when I don't agree with them. Well, most of the time they do.

Again, I don't know how many times I have to say this. BMac and Holland have damn near identical regular season and playoff record in their time with Caps/Oilers. Yes, that includes Oilers poopy start to the season. Of course, there are differences between franchises and the type of situations that the two GMs walked into. BMac did a really good job refining the roster that he inherited from McPhee but it was a very strong group to begin with. It's easier to improve Carlson/Alzner/Orlov/Holtby/Grubauer than Nurse/Klefbom/Larsson/Russel/Koskinen, don't you think? Especially when Klefbom is forced into retirement shortly after Holland's arrival.
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He’s easily in the upper third and I do think it’s your emotional baggage making you miss that.
 
traparatus said:
Oh, MacLellan is EASILY in the upper third. I've never said otherwise.
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So he’s essentially top 10, some might argue top 5, but you also just called him Holland (who may be feeling a warm seat) who has built a team that frankly just doesn’t work…

Can you rationalize how it’s both without leaning on Holland’s Detroit tenure, which was quite some time ago?
 
HTFN said:
So he’s essentially top 10, some might argue top 5, but you also just called him Holland (who may be feeling a warm seat) who has built a team that frankly just doesn’t work…

Can you rationalize how it’s both without leaning on Holland’s Detroit tenure, which was quite some time ago?
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I just don't know how many times I can re-type HOLLAND AND MACLELLAN HAVE NEARLY IDENTICAL REGULAR SEASON AND PLAYOFF RECORD with Oilers and Capitals respectively. What part of this is so confusing? That's about the 4th time I said it.

Holland walked into a situation left by Chiarelli, the Grand Viceroy of Dingdongs. He took over a team that had 3 top-9 level forwards, two top-4 defensemen(if you squint real hard), no goaltenders, one NHL prospect worth s**t and zero cap room. In a city that's on every players no-trade list.

MacLellan did a great job in his early years with the Caps. He took over a roster that was 80% there or ready to move up from the AHL, with rock solid cap situation, and added the missing pieces and the perfect head coach for that situation. The two situations are nowhere close to comparable. It's easy to have good goaltending when you inherit good goaltending. A defense group that contains Carlson/Alzner/Green(Orlov)/Holtby/Grubauer needed to be tweaked. A defense group that contains Nurse/Larsson/Koskinen/Talbot needs to be completely re-imagined. Kelfbom was forced to retire so that didn't help the situation.
 
traparatus said:
Right... Their regular season and playoff records are close to identical. Also, Oilers have drafted 8th, 14th, 22nd and 32nd in the 1st round during Holland's time. Washington has drafted 13th, 22nd, 28th, 31st, 25th, 22nd, 20th and 8th.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good narative, though.
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I’ve missed a bunch of this thread but you’re not saying BMac and Holland are on the same level, are you?
 
895 said:
Hockey is pretty nepotistic but the Oilers have to be the most nepotistic org in the entire league. They're gonna hire McDavid's wife next to redesign their stadium.
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Never forget the draft lottery when the Oilers owner practically kneeled to McDavid and handed him the keys to the city. One of the most cringe worthy things to witness in sports.
 
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AlexBrovechkin8 said:
I’ve missed a bunch of this thread but you’re not saying BMac and Holland are on the same level, are you?
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Come on, man. It's the internet, not the first time your baby says 'mama'. If you missed it, just scroll up. For better or worse, it's all still there.
 
traparatus said:
I just don't know how many times I can re-type HOLLAND AND MACLELLAN HAVE NEARLY IDENTICAL REGULAR SEASON AND PLAYOFF RECORD with Oilers and Capitals respectively. What part of this is so confusing? That's about the 4th time I said it.

Holland walked into a situation left by Chiarelli, the Grand Viceroy of Dingdongs. He took over a team that had 3 top-9 level forwards, two top-4 defensemen(if you squint real hard), no goaltenders, one NHL prospect worth s**t and zero cap room. In a city that's on every players no-trade list.

MacLellan did a great job in his early years with the Caps. He took over a roster that was 80% there or ready to move up from the AHL, with rock solid cap situation, and added the missing pieces and the perfect head coach for that situation. The two situations are nowhere close to comparable. It's easy to have good goaltending when you inherit good goaltending. A defense group that contains Carlson/Alzner/Green(Orlov)/Holtby/Grubauer needed to be tweaked. A defense group that contains Nurse/Larsson/Koskinen/Talbot needs to be completely re-imagined. Kelfbom was forced to retire so that didn't help the situation.
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Yeah, you’re f***ing around here, I don’t buy that 80% of the roster was there. Massive discredit to Niskanen, Oshie, Eller, Orpik, Connolly, Kempny, DSP pretty sure he drafted Vrana, and had two expansion drafts and a flat pandemic cap to fight with… punted on a lot of team favorites to make a change too instead of making status quo signings…

The Caps were not really looking like a deep team under Oates, and who hired the new coach? Has Holland hired anyone who won anything lately?

And that’s the cup team, we’re not even talking about tinkering and finding guys like Williams along the way, Grabovski, getting Shattenkirk for not much after getting Oshie for basically nothing of value…

I don’t think I’ve seen Holland make that many successful signings and steadily improve the team in the first 4 years of his tenure…. Definitely don’t see him winning that many trades.

If you don’t like the guy can we just address that instead of playing this game? Do you think Holland is also a good, top 10 GM? I don’t think you’d make this comparison if you did.
 
HTFN said:
Yeah, you’re f***ing around here, I don’t buy that 80% of the roster was there. Massive discredit to Niskanen, Oshie, Eller, Orpik, Connolly, Kempny, DSP pretty sure he drafted Vrana, and had two expansion drafts and a flat pandemic cap to fight with… punted on a lot of team favorites to make a change too instead of making status quo signings…

The Caps were not really looking like a deep team under Oates, and who hired the new coach? Has Holland hired anyone who won anything lately?

And that’s the cup team, we’re not even talking about tinkering and finding guys like Williams along the way, Grabovski, getting Shattenkirk for not much after getting Oshie for basically nothing of value…

I don’t think I’ve seen Holland make that many successful signings and steadily improve the team in the first 4 years of his tenure…. Definitely don’t see him winning that many trades.

If you don’t like the guy can we just address that instead of playing this game? Do you think Holland is also a good, top 10 GM? I don’t think you’d make this comparison if you did.
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I'm not discrediting anything MacLellan has done. He inhereted a strong core group and added good complimentary pieces to it. There is no point pissing about wether it was 80% or 70%. If you can't understand how the situation was different for these two GMs, I can't help you. I can tell you that Holland added Hyman, Kane, Ekholm, Ceci, Smith, etc., all while starting off from a much-much harder position than BMac. Went to 5 playoff series in the last 2 years. This doesn't seem to matter to you.

I don't really have a top-10 GM list. There are the guys who cover-up sexual abuse and hire racist coaches. There are the Bennings. There are your perpetual builders, the Ron Francis special. Then there is the group that has BMac and Holland in it. There is another group afrter that.

It's bananas how little credit goes to the situation that a GM joins into. Like, Yzerman was the greatest s**t since sliced bread when he was in Tampa. Then he joined Detroit and has dropped waaaaaaay down the rankings. Maybe Yzerman hit his head and completely forgot how to be a GM. Maybe he joined a team in a completely different and much worse situation.
 
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