NHL prospect Landon Sim was suspended 5 games for calling player Mennonite.

[uncleben]

Asking what's hard about "not doing that" is the wrong question, because it pre-supposes that the premise of what is/is not taboo is agreed upon. The hard part for you is winning the argument about player conduct when people do not agree with your fundamental premise that identity in all forms should be taboo.

Big difference between saying identities should be taboo and that mocking someone based on their identity should be frowned upon...

There are quite a few posts in this thread that point out that immutable personal characteristics, such as ugliness, intelligence level, or attractiveness of female family members all seem to be "fair game" and these are parts of a person's identity as well. You have drawn the line around a very specific set of characteristics, while the exclusion of others is obviously arbitrary. Therefore, the presupposition that somebody's religion as a piece of identity is completely out of bounds, but their appearance is fine for trashtalking is called into question.

As I've mentioned, chirping someone's appearance is subjective, and based on the premise me trying to get under the skin of you, the individual.
The difference with trying to denigrate someone based on their culture is that it implies an inherent quality to everyone of that culture.
And of course, we live in a world where not everything is black-and-white, there is an arbitrariness to that line, but it's far less arbitrary than claiming "you can't mock someone for being _____, but you can for being Mennonite"

And as for commenting on having sex with someone's mother and all that, it is usually based in fiction. You know someone is talking out there ass. But we also have seen on the ice in the NHL how pissed off players get when people start to bring in real-life shit. Personally, I do think family should be off limits. Shit talk me in a game, sure; come for my family, you're done.

You'd have a much more logical stance if you were arguing that there shouldn't be any trashtalk whatsoever, but that would probably just get you laughed at because hardly anyone would agree with you.

Sure. If that's the false dichotomy you want to propose then sure, ban chirping. I'd rather just keep watching the game on the ice then say, "Okay, fiiine, a little bit of racism is okay"

To push the point a bit further, the hard part of what you're asking is that what is and what is not acceptable as a part of a person's identity has been a rapidly shifting and adjusting field the last few years... If a player called someone the N-word, they'd get expelled from the league and I think we're all okay with that. Using league discipline to try and push taboos to include your arbitrary characteristics is quite obvious, and people don't have to agree to it.

And once upon a time people complained and rioted about not being able to use the n-word. But now that's a line you are willing to agree on.
Why do you think it shifts? "Wokies" and darned political correctness.

 

[BB79]

I don’t think being a minority group matters

If someone from a minority group insults the ethnicity/sexuality/religion etc of someone in a majority group it would still be considered the same

LOL you're kidding right? Yeah, it should be but never is.

 

[Ghost of Murph]

There was a not so bright guy we used to play against. He would chirp stuff that didn't even make sense or was out in left field. It was so stupid it was funny.

That was my initial reaction to this incident. It's such an odd thing to chirp that it's funny. Mennonites are well respected and great people. If someone called me a Mennonite I would actually be honored that they thought so highly of me.

We know what derogatory words are. Those words should garner punishment. "Mennonite" does not have a history of being a derogatory word. People in North America and Africa (where most Mennonites live) largely don't even know who they are.

This foolishness has gone overboard. If people want to go full-blown technical they could find a reason to punish every chirp made.

 

[37Bergenov14]

There is such a thing as to take a sledge hammer unnecessarily to an issue.

Not sure I agree with the concept that words can be so damaging to someone that it necessitates punishment that it is a crime equivalent to trying to someone's head off.

This contributes to a wider societal trend of protecting people's "feelings" that is far out of proportion.

I can understand where you're coming from to a degree, but that is sort of a different issue. I'm sure there's argument to be made regarding the rule itself, but this is about this specific player and whether they broke a rule that does exist today. Wherever possible, rules shouldn't be selectively enforced.

*Edit - I have no idea what I did to screw up the formatting of my reply!

 

[KovalchukFistPump]

Sorry but my reaction to this is "typical Canada". Don't feel like going further on that but it seems like an overreaction that will backfire later on as people start complaining about "woke" stuff like they did in the US.

 

[nowhereman]

I can see wanting to keep religious insults out of the game but there's no reason to be this soft. Unfortunately, puritan-style, performative progressivism has become the new religion of the day and some people have made it their mission to cover the whole world in bubble wrap in an effort to feel better about themselves. Most of us don't actually agree with this level of sensitivity but here we are...

 

[dino200022]

To be fair to the league, nothing truthful has come out as to what each player has said. There has certainly been a lot of theories going around but who knows what is actually true.

 

[Albatros]

Sorry but my reaction to this is "typical Canada". Don't feel like going further on that but it seems like an overreaction that will backfire later on as people start complaining about "woke" stuff like they did in the US.

So, you'd rather have religious slurs in hockey and if that's denied it'll somehow backfire?

 

[wetcoast]

Youre from Vancouver no? There's a tonne of them in the Fraser Valley

And to answer @MXD , you're sort of correct. People associate them with the Amish, but that's basically Pennsylvania haha. They're a branch of the anabaptist movement, fantastic farmers

Ya I live in the valley and have said that yes some mennonites live here guess I should feel bad about it eh?

i get the OHL's policy but considering this got 5 games and some of the on ice violence will get way less is just mindboggling.

I have to think that the OP doesn't have all the facts here is my best guess.

And I have called fellow coworkers p****ies and I'm a really liberal guy but I guess trash talking is really PC now in sports eh?

 

[Love]

So who did he say it to? Asking because there’s actually a lot of Mennonite surnames that are very common, so maybe the guy he said it to was a Penner, Janzen, Peters, Pauls, Wiens, Toews etc. These, along with many other common surnames, are know for being Mennonite names.

 

[waitin425]

Without reaching into to far into the political sphere on something like this, I will say this.....

A day of reckoning for this kind of ridiculous....soft....."you hurt my feelings".....approach to lifes problems is coming to an end.

In general.....people are fed up with this nonsense.

 

[Number8]

So if I call you a f***ing whitey...am i just using the name you call yourself? are you really that dense?

tone and context seem pretty obvious...

You just said "are you really that dense" -- implying that I am so f***ing dense that it causes you to shake your head in disbelief. But what you don't know is that my IQ is extremely low and that fact has has caused me a great deal of emotional pain throughout my life. Further, I was just beginning making a turn for the better and now you have gone and undermined all of my forward progress. I am now once again sad and angry that I'm nothing more than a dense fool.

As you can see, your tone and context is harmful to me. And since we are on the subject of what can/can't or should/shouldn't be allowed you should practice what you preach.

By the way, full disclosure........ I'm fairly sensitive about my nose as well so don't you f***ing dare. Don't.

 

[LeafGrief]

Big difference between saying identities should be taboo and that mocking someone based on their identity should be frowned upon...


As I've mentioned, chirping someone's appearance is subjective, and based on the premise me trying to get under the skin of you, the individual.
The difference with trying to denigrate someone based on their culture is that it implies an inherent quality to everyone of that culture.

This is mealy mouthed nothing. The premise of trash talking is to get under the person's skin by attacking something they are sensitive about. The idea that calling someone an "idiot XYZ" implies that all XYZ are idiots is asinine logic.

Someone who says "That stupid albatross" does not imply that all albatrosses are stupid. To argue that if you replace albatross with "Baptist" implies all Baptists are idiots is a philosophical leap and unsound logic. This entire argument is a house of cards. Nothing is implied, this is a reaction purely of the listener, who should probably touch grass.

And of course, we live in a world where not everything is black-and-white, there is an arbitrariness to that line, but it's far less arbitrary than claiming "you can't mock someone for being _____, but you can for being Mennonite"

No, it's in no way less arbitrary. You just subscribe to a worldview that has an established order. Nobody is obliged to agree with you.

And once upon a time people complained and rioted about not being able to use the n-word. But now that's a line you are willing to agree on.
Why do you think it shifts? "Wokies" and darned political correctness.

I believe it shifts because humans generally want to be kind and compassionate to each other. It has nothing to do with political correctness and everything to do with our neighbours, who despite their faults, almost entirely wish to be good people who are considerate to those around them. Political correctness is a dick-waving contest for who can score the most virtue points by acting offended on somebody else's behalf, and has gone so far as to become a nascent religion in the form of "woke". I was woke for a long, long time, Reddit will do that to a MF'er.

 

[Number8]

Without reaching into to far into the political sphere on something like this, I will say this.....

A day of reckoning for this kind of ridiculous....soft....."you hurt my feelings".....approach to lifes problems is coming to an end.

In general.....people are fed up with this nonsense.

I am a guy that, I suspect, might be on a different political landscape than you. I don't know. However, I agree 100% that this "you hurt my feelings" approach to life needs to stop. On both sides.

For example, the number of people in a tizzy over Michael Strahan not putting his hand on his heart during Veteran's Day ceremony is just as ridiculous and thin skinned.

All of this outrage over the very slightest of slights is actually disrespectful to those whose people have well and truly suffered immense harm and cruelty over the centuries simply because of the color of their skin, their religion, gender, etc.

 

[abax44]

This foolishness has gone overboard. If people want to go full-blown technical they could find a reason to punish every chirp made.

They're working on it, it would seem.

 

[Ghost of Murph]

They're working on it, it would seem.

For sure. The mental fragility of people is alarming.

Male testosterone levels have dropped substantially since 1990. I'll let others figure out whether it's the chicken or the egg as it relates to the Mennonite Incident and similar cases.

 

[waitin425]

I am a guy that, I suspect, might be on a different political landscape than you. I don't know. However, I agree 100% that this "you hurt my feelings" approach to life needs to stop. On both sides.

For example, the number of people in a tizzy over Michael Strahan not putting his hand on his heart during Veteran's Day ceremony is just as ridiculous and thin skinned.

All of this outrage over the very slightest of slights is actually disrespectful to those whose people have well and truly suffered immense harm and cruelty over the centuries simply because of the color of their skin, their religion, gender, etc.

My political leanings really have nothing to do with my statement. Same as yours. In general, I will say that most people centre left or centre right are tired of the ongoing battle for victimhood. The far side of either end is where we will find those who remove all common sense from an issue and deliberately create a polarizing argument to illicit emotional reactions that categorize people as good or bad.

Those days are coming to an end. People have had enough.

 

[uncleben]

I am a guy that, I suspect, might be on a different political landscape than you. I don't know. However, I agree 100% that this "you hurt my feelings" approach to life needs to stop. On both sides.

For example, the number of people in a tizzy over Michael Strahan not putting his hand on his heart during Veteran's Day ceremony is just as ridiculous and thin skinned.

All of this outrage over the very slightest of slights is actually disrespectful to those whose people have well and truly suffered immense harm and cruelty over the centuries simply because of the color of their skin, their religion, gender, etc.

Tbh, this is really where I lie
Guy said something on the ice and there is an explicit rule to not say those things, and he got the automatic, minimum consequence? Okay. Non-conversation, really.
It's the flapping about, "But why is there even a rule! That's so unfair!" faux-outrage that grinds my gears

Sure, simply calling someone out as "Mennonite" to try and insult them doesn't carry the same socio-historical weight as other terms or labels might, but they also have a generic rule in place to not use culture and religion as an insult? Seems logical and reasonable to me!
Guess I'll go touch grass now, though

 

[Skidooboy]

You just said "are you really that dense" -- implying that I am so f***ing dense that it causes you to shake your head in disbelief. But what you don't know is that my IQ is extremely low and that fact has has caused me a great deal of emotional pain throughout my life. Further, I was just beginning making a turn for the better and now you have gone and undermined all of my forward progress. I am now once again sad and angry that I'm nothing more than a dense fool.

As you can see, your tone and context is harmful to me. And since we are on the subject of what can/can't or should/shouldn't be allowed you should practice what you preach.

By the way, full disclosure........ I'm fairly sensitive about my nose as well so don't you f***ing dare. Don't.

well here's a cartoon to help you understand

Google-Ergebnis für https://skepchick.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/HcuZIT5w8xJLMXoISDexG1GNz5Dj7xHO_QGeueMtdPU.jpg

Tbh, this is really where I lie
Guy said something on the ice and there is an explicit rule to not say those things, and he got the automatic, minimum consequence? Okay. Non-conversation, really.
It's the flapping about, "But why is there even a rule! That's so unfair!" faux-outrage that grinds my gears

Sure, simply calling someone out as "Mennonite" to try and insult them doesn't carry the same socio-historical weight as other terms or labels might, but they also have a generic rule in place to not use culture and religion as an insult? Seems logical and reasonable to me!
Guess I'll go touch grass now, though

how dare you use logic and reason!

 

[PanniniClaus]

Sim is headed to the Q. Faster than I thought it may happen.

 

[Skidooboy]

soo i grew up around a lot of mennonite kids...and for sure I heard peole use mennonite as a insult..

There was a not so bright guy we used to play against. He would chirp stuff that didn't even make sense or was out in left field. It was so stupid it was funny.

That was my initial reaction to this incident. It's such an odd thing to chirp that it's funny. Mennonites are well respected and great people. If someone called me a Mennonite I would actually be honored that they thought so highly of me.

We know what derogatory words are. Those words should garner punishment. "Mennonite" does not have a history of being a derogatory word. People in North America and Africa (where most Mennonites live) largely don't even know who they are.

This foolishness has gone overboard. If people want to go full-blown technical they could find a reason to punish every chirp made.

I know. words are hard.

1. This obviously wasn't a layered and nuanced discussion of the players cultural and religious heritage in a respectful tone. it was MEANT as a slur... if you don't know the difference...think of this...if i say "My wife is a woman" then say "Dave you act like a woman" see how the same word can be both a fact AND an insult?

2. You clearly don't know history, do you ever wonder why Mennonites live in North America and Africa? Instead of Europe where they come from? hint it's not by choice.
Mennonites were persecuted in much of Europe. there were pogroms, forced deportation, murdered women and children confiscation of land and assets... by Nazi's and communists alike.
they were caught up in the Holodomor.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/goossen/files/goossen_a_small_world_power_2018.pdf


3. Kids who were mennonite in my southwestern MB town were targeted and mocked for their names and very much were viewed as "lesser than". that's not the 1500's that's the 1990's.

 

[Bjorn Le]

Generally speaking, most Mennonites have very typical names that are quite synonymous with being Mennonite

Not really. Toews, Reimer, and Weber are all very common Mennonite names and I’m not sure any one would associate those Jonathan, James, and Shea as players as being synonymous with being Mennonite (although pretty sure both Toews and Reimer are/were).

 

[Slats432]

The world is soft. People's feelings get hurt too easy.

 

[Ghost of Murph]

soo i grew up around a lot of mennonite kids...and for sure I heard peole use mennonite as a insult..

I know. words are hard.

1. This obviously wasn't a layered and nuanced discussion of the players cultural and religious heritage in a respectful tone. it was MEANT as a slur... if you don't know the difference...think of this...if i say "My wife is a woman" then say "Dave you act like a woman" see how the same word can be both a fact AND an insult?

2. You clearly don't know history, do you ever wonder why Mennonites live in North America and Africa? Instead of Europe where they come from? hint it's not by choice.
Mennonites were persecuted in much of Europe. there were pogroms, forced deportation, murdered women and children confiscation of land and assets... by Nazi's and communists alike.
they were caught up in the Holodomor.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/goossen/files/goossen_a_small_world_power_2018.pdf


3. Kids who were mennonite in my southwestern MB town were targeted and mocked for their names and very much were viewed as "lesser than". that's not the 1500's that's the 1990's.

I'm very aware of the history of Amish, Mennonites, Hutterites, Quakers, and Shakers. I am a Quaker who has heard my fair share of jokes about oats and buckled hats. I also have lived in two states with heavy Amish and Mennonite populations, and regularly do business with both groups.

Over the decades I have not once heard someone make fun of a Mennonite. They have always been well respected around these parts. I'm sorry to hear that in your region Mennonite kids get ridiculed. My experience has been completely different. I appreciate your insight.

 

[Number8]

My political leanings really have nothing to do with my statement. Same as yours. In general, I will say that most people centre left or centre right are tired of the ongoing battle for victimhood. The far side of either end is where we will find those who remove all common sense from an issue and deliberately create a polarizing argument to illicit emotional reactions that categorize people as good or bad.

Those days are coming to an end. People have had enough.

You and I are in complete agreement here. Could care less whether you on CL or CR — I’m good. The extremes on either side seem dead set on division just as you describe — enough so that they f*** it up for everyone.

We need to get back to common sense. And, at least as far as the OHL goes, maybe the sooner the better.

And you????? You’re just a friggin centrist damn it.