NHL Expansion back on agenda?

[ponder719]

First of all - googling finds some suggestion of the "Flames were offered for one dollar" but not really any source. Since the Flames ultimately sold for $16 million to Calgary that probably was a much better deal for Cousins then giving the team to Turner.

Also - Ted Turner of 1977 was a different man than Ted Turner of 1995. Ted was a successful businessman in the 70s owning a bunch of TV stations that showed old re-runs, but it was only with the growth in cable (with his Superstation) and CNN that he became a billionaire, and thus had money to spend on projects like the Goodwill Games, or the Atlanta NHL team.

Can't say for sure, but the link I posted was Tom Cousins speaking about it directly, albeit with the veil of time between him and the incident (the book it's cribbed from was published in 2018, so the interview was probably then or slightly before.) That's probably the most accurate source we're going to get at this juncture. Cousins' claim was that his preference was to keep the team in Atlanta, even if he gave it away (apparently offered them to Turner, Delta, and Coca-Cola), and second, to own the team in Calgary, which Canadian law made an impossibility. He only sold it when those two options were ruled out. That said, yeah, $16M is a lot better outcome than just giving the team away from a financial perspective.

I do agree that Turner's situation changed in the intervening years, that probably had a lot to do with it, though it's a shame he couldn't have seen his way to keeping the team in Atlanta and bypassing the first interregnum entirely.

 

[TheLegend]

i have full faith in ottawa having 0% chance to move before atlantas 3rd team lol thanks for your concern though

I don’t have any concerns for Ottawa at all. Never have.

Just pointing out your continued trolling of the Atlanta posters here only demonstrates you posess a strong regional bias.

That is unless you can provide us all with something of real business significance other than “HaHa ThEy AlReAdY FailEd TwICe!”

 

[rojac]

It's $2B expansion fee + over $1B arena construction + MLSE fees. You're talking about at least $3.5B for expansion and I wouldn't at all be surprised if it were well. over $4B in the end. $500m indemnity feels like a conservative number to me, but I could be wrong.

Yup. Has there been an indemnification fee since Anaheim? In that deal, the Kings got $25M and the expansion price was $50M so if I was the Leafs and the expansion price is $2B, I'm asking for an indemnification fee of $1B.

Now, in the Anaheim expansion, Disney refused to pay an indemnification fee, so the other owners agreed to give the Kings were given half of the expansion money paid by Disney. So, perhaps, there could be some kind of deal like that where all or part or all of the Leafs indemnification payment comes from the other owners shares of the expansion money.

 

[TheLegend]

It's $2B expansion fee + over $1B arena construction + MLSE fees. You're talking about at least $3.5B for expansion and I wouldn't at all be surprised if it were well. over $4B in the end. $500m indemnity feels like a conservative number to me, but I could be wrong.

Think we’re already seeing a trend in pro sports that you can’t just build a barn and sell tickets anymore.

Now you have to add a massive entertainment district and other side ventures to go along with it for support.

 

[BMN]

Ted Turner cared about stuff but that didn't always equate with caring if they were run well.

I think history shows he cared about the Thrashers...just not as much as the Hawks...and he didn't care about the Hawks as much as he cared about the Braves.

EDIT: although as already pointed out here, his power within TW diminished before the Thrashers hit the ice (and flat out VANISHED in the AOL merger).

 

[Yukon Joe]

Yup. Has there been an indemnification fee since Anaheim? In that deal, the Kings got $25M and the expansion price was $50M so if I was the Leafs and the expansion price is $2B, I'm asking for an indemnification fee of $1B.

Now, in the Anaheim expansion, Disney refused to pay an indemnification fee, so the other owners agreed to give the Kings were given half of the expansion money paid by Disney. So, perhaps, there could be some kind of deal like that where all or part or all of the Leafs indemnification payment comes from the other owners shares of the expansion money.

Anything is possible, but the reason the NHL was good with giving away half of the expansion fee to McNall is they were so excited to become literal business partners with Disney, a major media company. And this was a few years before Disney purchases ABC/ESPN, which made it an even better partner.

Not sure any potential moves the needle like that in 2024. Maybe if Bezos (Amazon) wants to buy a team? Or Zuckerberg (Meta/Facebook)? Netflix? Otherwise though I'm sure the other owners want their cold, hard cash.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Ted Turner cared about stuff but that didn't always equate with caring if they were run well.

I think history shows he cared about the Thrashers...just not as much as the Hawks...and he didn't care about the Hawks as much as he cared about the Braves.

EDIT: although as already pointed out here, his power within TW diminished before the Thrashers hit the ice (and flat out VANISHED in the AOL merger).

Lots of stories about how Turner loved his WCW wrestling, but it was still run pretty hands-off by Turner - initially to great success, only to see it tumbling down.

And yes - Turner was basically OUT with the AOL merger.

Man oh man, since we're on business talk, the AOL management has to be either the greatest geniuses of all time, or the luckiest SOBS of all time. They took a company that was wildly over-valued from the dotcom bubbles and used it to buy a multi-billion dollar media company. A few years later the combined company was worth no more than Time Warner was worth before the merger - in fact even less. Heck as I was checking just to make sure I got all the details right there was a quote from Ted Turner himself about how the AOL merger potentially made him the biggest loser in the stock market of all time - or at least in the top 3 or 4.

 

[rojac]

Anything is possible, but the reason the NHL was good with giving away half of the expansion fee to McNall is they were so excited to become literal business partners with Disney, a major media company. And this was a few years before Disney purchases ABC/ESPN, which made it an even better partner.

Not sure any potential moves the needle like that in 2024. Maybe if Bezos (Amazon) wants to buy a team? Or Zuckerberg (Meta/Facebook)? Netflix? Otherwise though I'm sure the other owners want their cold, hard cash.

And I pretty much agree with you. I think it's a possibility but not necessarily a very strong possibility and woukd require the right owner.

 

[dj4aces]

This notion that Phillips Arena wasn't suitable for hockey - today is the first time I've ever seen it - and I followed the Atlanta to Winnipeg relocation very closely at the time. Location? Maybe - but not the building itself.

I think any talk of Philips being unsuitable during the Thrashers era is entirely in terms of its location.

 

[nhlfan79]

I think any talk of Philips being unsuitable during the Thrashers era is entirely in terms of its location.

Exactly. The arena itself was fine, except for the galactically stupid initial design decision to stack all of the suites on one side of the arena. Who in their right mind would pay exorbitant suite lease prices at the tippy top level of the wall, equivalent to nosebleed seats in one end zone? Apparently not many, which they quickly learned. They were being too clever by half.

And if you wanna be a part of the old inside joke, only the restricted access, fancy side of the building got hot water in the bathroom sinks and bendy drink straws.

 

[GreenHornet]

Absolutely. I have nothing to go on with respect to the building itself, other than the Athletic article that just got posted and a couple things from players (they were interviewing either Ray Ferraro or Nelson Emerson, since there was a quote from one to the other in the piece) saying that the initial amenities laughably misunderstood what NHL players would need, but that could be chalked up to naïvety, rather than malice.

As for Turner basically insisting on Atlanta being a four-sport city, apparently Tom Cousins offered to just give Turner the Flames for free as part of the sale of the Hawks and the Omni, and Turner declined, but I can see a scenario where his opinion changed over the intervening years.

To add to this, I seem to remember reading somewhere once (don't remember the source and unfortunately, a Google search came up empty) that quoted Turner as regretting he didn't buy the Flames when offered to him by Cousins because it would've been a steal compared to what he paid for the Thrashers.

 

[BMN]

The arena itself was fine, except for the galactically stupid initial design decision to stack all of the suites on one side of the arena.

Awwww.....I always kinda liked that about it. In an era where the arenas have lost so much of their distinction in their internal appearance, that gave it its own look & feel.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Awwww.....I always kinda liked that about it. In an era where the arenas have lost so much of their distinction in their internal appearance, that gave it its own look & feel.

But that's the thing - something that makes an arena distinctive, often makes it suck.

Like the design of the Calgary Saddledome is so iconic. It goes along with Calgary's whole "western" self-image. But it almost makes sightlines from the upper deck terrible. The new arena will be much more generic looking.

 

[StreetHawk]

I think any talk of Philips being unsuitable during the Thrashers era is entirely in terms of its location.

I would imagine that the hockey fans would still go to the arena for a concert of someone they wanted to see. But that’s a one off vs a 41 game season.

Atl, also blew up their Olympic oval. Built it then had to basically knock down half of it to convert to a baseball field then braves want to move into the burbs. I shudder at the amount of money that goes into sports stadiums in some cities.

 

[dj4aces]

I would imagine that the hockey fans would still go to the arena for a concert of someone they wanted to see. But that’s a one off vs a 41 game season.

A lot of folks did indeed, specifically because it was a one-off. But there's not a lot of folks who are going to go someplace to watch a mediocre or awful team play in a place no one wants to go to anyway -- and that's before one factors in the ownership issue here.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

Kansas city maybe? i really dont think there gonna give quebec a team only chance is if one fails again and needs to be moved quebec has arena already waiting then.

Quebec failed 2 times as an NHL market so by your own standards no team for them either.

 

[sneakytitz]

Awwww.....I always kinda liked that about it. In an era where the arenas have lost so much of their distinction in their internal appearance, that gave it its own look & feel.

Unrelated but I saw Pearl Jam in concert there shortly after it opened and Eddie joked that the suites looked like a prison block, or something to that effect. I got to sit in a few of those suites before the latest renovation and they were pretty awesome. Never got to sit up high, so I don't know if that killed the experience, but unlike most suites, the ability to look out and down at every angle unobstructed was pretty cool. There was nothing in the arena you couldn't see.

To add to this, I seem to remember reading somewhere once (don't remember the source and unfortunately, a Google search came up empty) that quoted Turner as regretting he didn't buy the Flames when offered to him by Cousins because it would've been a steal compared to what he paid for the Thrashers.

I'm coming off as a Turner-homer but, as a kid that grew up in Atlanta when this guy had his grip on the city, he's a fascinating/endearing dude. One of those quirky, eccentric billionaires with a good heart, what isn't to love?

Turner thought, at least in the 70s, that hockey didn't look good on TV. Granted, I was not alive then but watching old games on YouTube, yeah, the presentation wasn't quite there yet for the average person. He broadcasted Flames games for years on TBS, so it's not like his opinion was hypothetical, he gave it a shot. In an alternate universe, I'm sure America's teams are the Atlanta Braves and Atlanta Flames.

We also have to keep in mind that during the time that Cousins was trying to offload the Flames, Turner was offloading assets to fund what would become CNN. I can't imagine that the Braves were money makers at the time (this was before brighter days) so taking on another money loser probably wasn't high on his priority list. The Hawks certainly weren't making money. If I'm trying to fund something big, that eventually would become big, I'm not taking on any other money pits. Ted didn't spend on passion projects again until the mid 80s when he started the Goodwill Games and when he bought GCW/JCP, which, ironically, became WCW and a 3-4 year stretch in the mid 90s provided him the money, and then some, to buy his NHL team.

The Atlanta/NHL story is a fascinating one, which is hopefully reaching it's bookend moment.

 

[BMN]

I'm coming off as a Turner-homer but, as a kid that grew up in Atlanta when this guy had his grip on the city, he's a fascinating/endearing dude. One of those quirky, eccentric billionaires with a good heart, what isn't to love?

It was my experience living in Atlanta ('03-'22) that Ted was well regarded by locals (*esp* the ITP locals) and they only lamented that he didn't have the foresight/power to swerve the company out of the AOL merger. He believed in Atlanta as not just "the city" but "a Top 5 American city" and that is where I think a lot of the endearment came from.

I do remember the day of the Thrashers "select-a-seat-even-though-we-all-know-the-team's-leaving" event. I was at the in-CNN-concourse Braves shop (oddly fitting in a weird way that day) and the guy working the register asking me about the event. After giving him a recap, he shook his head and said (paraphrasing) "it all went to hell when they muscled Ted out..."

 

[sneakytitz]

he shook his head and said (paraphrasing) "it all went to hell when they muscled Ted out..."

That's how I feel, after all these years.

 

[Kirk Van Houten]

Which is the point where sports leagues in North America will start thinking about a second division in order to expand more? Seems like at some point in the next decades we're getting there. Is it 40 teams? 50?

 

[LPHabsFan]

Meh. Owners will get their 1.5 - 2 billion from expansion teams that doesn't count towards HRR, and Atlanta at least will start losing money probably in year 4. The ED as a whole may or not be built to completion but make no mistake, this is a real estate deal, not a hockey ambition. There are far more likely indicators of Atlanta failing once again than them succeeding.

There's no way that Fertitta is paying that price. Even with a team in Houston, they should be very careful with how it's done. Even the team north of them in Dallas is middle of the pack in a good year revenue/profit wise so I'd expect them to be in that range at best. Which isn't a bad thing. Just saying they're not going to be in the top 1/3 of revenue teams.

Other places? who knows.

 

[voyageur]

Attendance means a lot less than it did. Florida was death for attendance for the balance of their existence, and now it’s like that almost never happened. Sure, you need people in the building, but he a good franchise and the people will show, but more importantly, they will watch and they will have corporate support

Elliotte Friedman said last season, it’s in the Houston thread, that he thinks there’s a second Houston group that has motivated Fertitta. But the league still seems to want him more than he wants them. Does he want to own a team just to keep others out? Does he just want a team to get a new building? Or does he want to own a team because he is investing tin hockey. That’s the difference between him and Ryan Smith or either Atlanta owner, and even Vegas and Seattle.

There just seems to be a lot of landmines around Houston if they’re going with Fertitta, the idea sounds a lot better but we know nothing about the execution. I’d be worried this is setting up similar to the Thrashers where he may just decide he got the building and give up when he loses interest.

I think Fertitta would let his sons operate hockey management, it would be their golden goose. I don't think Fertitta himself has any interest in hockey, but if there is potential to make money with a franchise, and I am sure there would be a lot of behind the scenes work there, Houston will join the league. The NHLPA would definitely like another team in a tax free state. Question is can his sons run a competitive franchise?

I think league revenues with merchandising, gambling, tv/streaming make attendance less important but not irrelevant...a playoff appearance can be the margin of difference in profits for most franchise owners. Expansion keeps that revenue stream rolling and it's money the owners don't have to share in escrow.

 

[dj4aces]

Which is the point where sports leagues in North America will start thinking about a second division in order to expand more? Seems like at some point in the next decades we're getting there. Is it 40 teams? 50?

How, exactly, would that work? If you're talking about having enough teams to make relegation a thing, it will never happen in any North American sports league.

 

[GKJ]

I think Fertitta would let his sons operate hockey management, it would be their golden goose. I don't think Fertitta himself has any interest in hockey, but if there is potential to make money with a franchise, and I am sure there would be a lot of behind the scenes work there, Houston will join the league. The NHLPA would definitely like another team in a tax free state. Question is can his sons run a competitive franchise?

I think league revenues with merchandising, gambling, tv/streaming make attendance less important but not irrelevant...a playoff appearance can be the margin of difference in profits for most franchise owners. Expansion keeps that revenue stream rolling and it's money the owners don't have to share in escrow.

I know nothing beyond Fertitta himself, but the sons would have to be on board as well. The league doesn’t want to just place teams, but they want investment in the marketplace as well. Whether they have that desire only they can answer.

 

[voyageur]

I know nothing beyond Fertitta himself, but the sons would have to be on board as well. The league doesn’t want to just place teams, but they want investment in the marketplace as well. Whether they have that desire only they can answer.

I only know what I saw in an interview with his sons, who are hockey enthusiasts. I think there is a change in thinking with expansion. The NHL carefully chose markets that weren't directly competing with the NBA, going back to Nashville and Columbus. Vegas and Seattle were slam dunks, being the primary winter sport team.

Now it's looking at market size, the NHL just lost a top 10 U.S market, after relocating another one to the league's smallest market, north of the border. I think Bettman and the owners want to make a move that in appearance puts the NHL back in the big leagues, still ahead of MLS, behind NBA but not by as big of a margin. I think it's PR, to keep growing value in the NHL brand. You know both markets will be guaranteed All Star games within the first 5 years. Probably have a battle of Texas outdoor game. I don't know if the next round of expansion is good for the game, but it is good for business.