NHL Expansion back on agenda?

[ponder719]

First of all - googling finds some suggestion of the "Flames were offered for one dollar" but not really any source. Since the Flames ultimately sold for $16 million to Calgary that probably was a much better deal for Cousins then giving the team to Turner.

Also - Ted Turner of 1977 was a different man than Ted Turner of 1995. Ted was a successful businessman in the 70s owning a bunch of TV stations that showed old re-runs, but it was only with the growth in cable (with his Superstation) and CNN that he became a billionaire, and thus had money to spend on projects like the Goodwill Games, or the Atlanta NHL team.

Can't say for sure, but the link I posted was Tom Cousins speaking about it directly, albeit with the veil of time between him and the incident (the book it's cribbed from was published in 2018, so the interview was probably then or slightly before.) That's probably the most accurate source we're going to get at this juncture. Cousins' claim was that his preference was to keep the team in Atlanta, even if he gave it away (apparently offered them to Turner, Delta, and Coca-Cola), and second, to own the team in Calgary, which Canadian law made an impossibility. He only sold it when those two options were ruled out. That said, yeah, $16M is a lot better outcome than just giving the team away from a financial perspective.

I do agree that Turner's situation changed in the intervening years, that probably had a lot to do with it, though it's a shame he couldn't have seen his way to keeping the team in Atlanta and bypassing the first interregnum entirely.

 

[TheLegend]

i have full faith in ottawa having 0% chance to move before atlantas 3rd team lol thanks for your concern though

I don’t have any concerns for Ottawa at all. Never have.

Just pointing out your continued trolling of the Atlanta posters here only demonstrates you posess a strong regional bias.

That is unless you can provide us all with something of real business significance other than “HaHa ThEy AlReAdY FailEd TwICe!”

 

[rojac]

It's $2B expansion fee + over $1B arena construction + MLSE fees. You're talking about at least $3.5B for expansion and I wouldn't at all be surprised if it were well. over $4B in the end. $500m indemnity feels like a conservative number to me, but I could be wrong.

Yup. Has there been an indemnification fee since Anaheim? In that deal, the Kings got $25M and the expansion price was $50M so if I was the Leafs and the expansion price is $2B, I'm asking for an indemnification fee of $1B.

Now, in the Anaheim expansion, Disney refused to pay an indemnification fee, so the other owners agreed to give the Kings were given half of the expansion money paid by Disney. So, perhaps, there could be some kind of deal like that where all or part or all of the Leafs indemnification payment comes from the other owners shares of the expansion money.

 

[TheLegend]

It's $2B expansion fee + over $1B arena construction + MLSE fees. You're talking about at least $3.5B for expansion and I wouldn't at all be surprised if it were well. over $4B in the end. $500m indemnity feels like a conservative number to me, but I could be wrong.

Think we’re already seeing a trend in pro sports that you can’t just build a barn and sell tickets anymore.

Now you have to add a massive entertainment district and other side ventures to go along with it for support.

 

[BMN]

Ted Turner cared about stuff but that didn't always equate with caring if they were run well.

I think history shows he cared about the Thrashers...just not as much as the Hawks...and he didn't care about the Hawks as much as he cared about the Braves.

EDIT: although as already pointed out here, his power within TW diminished before the Thrashers hit the ice (and flat out VANISHED in the AOL merger).

 

[Yukon Joe]

Yup. Has there been an indemnification fee since Anaheim? In that deal, the Kings got $25M and the expansion price was $50M so if I was the Leafs and the expansion price is $2B, I'm asking for an indemnification fee of $1B.

Now, in the Anaheim expansion, Disney refused to pay an indemnification fee, so the other owners agreed to give the Kings were given half of the expansion money paid by Disney. So, perhaps, there could be some kind of deal like that where all or part or all of the Leafs indemnification payment comes from the other owners shares of the expansion money.

Anything is possible, but the reason the NHL was good with giving away half of the expansion fee to McNall is they were so excited to become literal business partners with Disney, a major media company. And this was a few years before Disney purchases ABC/ESPN, which made it an even better partner.

Not sure any potential moves the needle like that in 2024. Maybe if Bezos (Amazon) wants to buy a team? Or Zuckerberg (Meta/Facebook)? Netflix? Otherwise though I'm sure the other owners want their cold, hard cash.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Ted Turner cared about stuff but that didn't always equate with caring if they were run well.

I think history shows he cared about the Thrashers...just not as much as the Hawks...and he didn't care about the Hawks as much as he cared about the Braves.

EDIT: although as already pointed out here, his power within TW diminished before the Thrashers hit the ice (and flat out VANISHED in the AOL merger).

Lots of stories about how Turner loved his WCW wrestling, but it was still run pretty hands-off by Turner - initially to great success, only to see it tumbling down.

And yes - Turner was basically OUT with the AOL merger.

Man oh man, since we're on business talk, the AOL management has to be either the greatest geniuses of all time, or the luckiest SOBS of all time. They took a company that was wildly over-valued from the dotcom bubbles and used it to buy a multi-billion dollar media company. A few years later the combined company was worth no more than Time Warner was worth before the merger - in fact even less. Heck as I was checking just to make sure I got all the details right there was a quote from Ted Turner himself about how the AOL merger potentially made him the biggest loser in the stock market of all time - or at least in the top 3 or 4.

 

[rojac]

Anything is possible, but the reason the NHL was good with giving away half of the expansion fee to McNall is they were so excited to become literal business partners with Disney, a major media company. And this was a few years before Disney purchases ABC/ESPN, which made it an even better partner.

Not sure any potential moves the needle like that in 2024. Maybe if Bezos (Amazon) wants to buy a team? Or Zuckerberg (Meta/Facebook)? Netflix? Otherwise though I'm sure the other owners want their cold, hard cash.

And I pretty much agree with you. I think it's a possibility but not necessarily a very strong possibility and woukd require the right owner.

 

[dj4aces]

This notion that Phillips Arena wasn't suitable for hockey - today is the first time I've ever seen it - and I followed the Atlanta to Winnipeg relocation very closely at the time. Location? Maybe - but not the building itself.

I think any talk of Philips being unsuitable during the Thrashers era is entirely in terms of its location.

 

[nhlfan79]

I think any talk of Philips being unsuitable during the Thrashers era is entirely in terms of its location.

Exactly. The arena itself was fine, except for the galactically stupid initial design decision to stack all of the suites on one side of the arena. Who in their right mind would pay exorbitant suite lease prices at the tippy top level of the wall, equivalent to nosebleed seats in one end zone? Apparently not many, which they quickly learned. They were being too clever by half.

And if you wanna be a part of the old inside joke, only the restricted access, fancy side of the building got hot water in the bathroom sinks and bendy drink straws.

 

[GreenHornet]

Absolutely. I have nothing to go on with respect to the building itself, other than the Athletic article that just got posted and a couple things from players (they were interviewing either Ray Ferraro or Nelson Emerson, since there was a quote from one to the other in the piece) saying that the initial amenities laughably misunderstood what NHL players would need, but that could be chalked up to naïvety, rather than malice.

As for Turner basically insisting on Atlanta being a four-sport city, apparently Tom Cousins offered to just give Turner the Flames for free as part of the sale of the Hawks and the Omni, and Turner declined, but I can see a scenario where his opinion changed over the intervening years.

To add to this, I seem to remember reading somewhere once (don't remember the source and unfortunately, a Google search came up empty) that quoted Turner as regretting he didn't buy the Flames when offered to him by Cousins because it would've been a steal compared to what he paid for the Thrashers.

 

[BMN]

The arena itself was fine, except for the galactically stupid initial design decision to stack all of the suites on one side of the arena.

Awwww.....I always kinda liked that about it. In an era where the arenas have lost so much of their distinction in their internal appearance, that gave it its own look & feel.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Awwww.....I always kinda liked that about it. In an era where the arenas have lost so much of their distinction in their internal appearance, that gave it its own look & feel.

But that's the thing - something that makes an arena distinctive, often makes it suck.

Like the design of the Calgary Saddledome is so iconic. It goes along with Calgary's whole "western" self-image. But it almost makes sightlines from the upper deck terrible. The new arena will be much more generic looking.

 

[StreetHawk]

I think any talk of Philips being unsuitable during the Thrashers era is entirely in terms of its location.

I would imagine that the hockey fans would still go to the arena for a concert of someone they wanted to see. But that’s a one off vs a 41 game season.

Atl, also blew up their Olympic oval. Built it then had to basically knock down half of it to convert to a baseball field then braves want to move into the burbs. I shudder at the amount of money that goes into sports stadiums in some cities.

 

[dj4aces]

I would imagine that the hockey fans would still go to the arena for a concert of someone they wanted to see. But that’s a one off vs a 41 game season.

A lot of folks did indeed, specifically because it was a one-off. But there's not a lot of folks who are going to go someplace to watch a mediocre or awful team play in a place no one wants to go to anyway -- and that's before one factors in the ownership issue here.