NHL.com Trophy Tracker - Hart Trophy

Duffalufagus

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An even strength point and a powerplay point brings the same value to a team. It gets you a goal.

As for the bolded, you can say the same about literally every player I mentioned in my initial post.
Not when you are differentiating players that are so close to each other in terms of production. It’s just a fact: even strength points are more impressive, and difficult to accumulate, than powerplay points. And J Hockey is routing the competition by that metric.
 

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Not when you are differentiating players that are so close to each other in terms of production. It’s just a fact: even strength points are more impressive, and difficult to accumulate, than powerplay points. And J Hockey is routing the competition by that metric.
I’m not entering the debate whether or not ESP are more impressive. It’s definitely not a fact. I’m telling you that an ESP or a PPP brings the same value to a team. That is a fact.
 

WhiskeyYerTheDevils

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I’m not entering the debate whether or not ESP are more impressive. It’s definitely not a fact. I’m telling you that an ESP or a PPP brings the same value to a team. That is a fact.
Disagree.

Gaudreau also leads in primary points. But I guess you think secondary PP assists are worth more than primary 5v5 points.
 

bambamcam4ever

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I’m not entering the debate whether or not ESP are more impressive. It’s definitely not a fact. I’m telling you that an ESP or a PPP brings the same value to a team. That is a fact.
No actually, if a hypothetical player, let's say he wears 97, were to play the entire 2 minute PP pretty regularly, his points would not be as valuable as someone who scores them at 5v5.
 

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Disagree.

Gaudreau also leads in primary points. But I guess you think secondary PP assists are worth more than primary 5v5 points.
As I’ve mentioned before, they are both worth 1 point for the team. It doesn’t matter if the players get them on the power play or at even strength. I fail to see where they’re “worth more” to a team’s success than PPP.
No actually, if a hypothetical player, let's say he wears 97, were to play the entire 2 minute PP pretty regularly, his points would not be as valuable as someone who scores them at 5v5.
There is a reason why McDavid plays more on the PP. If anything, it adds to his case for being the most valuable.
 
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WhiskeyYerTheDevils

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As I’ve mentioned before, they are both worth 1 point for the team. It doesn’t matter if the players get them on the power play or at even strength. I fail to see where they’re “worth more” to a team’s success than PPP.

There is a reason why McDavid plays more on the PP. If anything, it adds to his case for being the most valuable.
He plays more on the PP because Sutter.

And again, he leads the league in primary points.
 

Duffalufagus

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As I’ve mentioned before, they are both worth 1 point for the team. It doesn’t matter if the players get them on the power play or at even strength. I fail to see where they’re “worth more” to a team’s success than PPP.

There is a reason why McDavid plays more on the PP. If anything, it adds to his case for being the most valuable.
Amazing.
 
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RonaldNeptune

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I’m not entering the debate whether or not ESP are more impressive. It’s definitely not a fact. I’m telling you that an ESP or a PPP brings the same value to a team. That is a fact.

A lot more of the game is played at even strength, wouldn’t it make sense that the guy who scores the most during this time is adding more value for his team…
 

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He plays more on the PP because Sutter.

And again, he leads the league in primary points.

Yes, I believe he is tied with McDavid (who has more goals) in primary points.

The primary point argument makes more sense, although it remains a weak one compared to the ones for the other candidates, as he’s not solo leading, let alone by some margin. You would wonder why Gaudreau doesn’t get more secondary assists than Huberdeau, playing with better players for the biggest part of the season. Before you tell me that Huberdeau benefits of a much better PP to rack up secondary assists, he only has 3 more of those on Gaudreau this season. (If the website I’m looking at is accurate)
 

WhiskeyYerTheDevils

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Yes, I believe he is tied with McDavid (who has more goals) in primary points.

The primary point argument makes more sense, although it remains a weak one compared to the ones for the other candidates, as he’s not solo leading, let alone by some margin. You would wonder why Gaudreau doesn’t get more secondary assists than Huberdeau, playing with better players for the biggest part of the season. Before you tell me that Huberdeau benefits of a much better PP to rack up secondary assists, he only has 3 more of those on Gaudreau this season. (If the website I’m looking at is accurate)
He has 3 more than McDavid in 240 less minutes. So right off the bat you're premise is wrong.

Gaudreau 89
McDavid 86
Draisaitl 84
Matthews 84
Huberdeau 81

Secondary assists are much more random, as studies have proven over and over.
 

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A lot more of the game is played at even strength, wouldn’t it make sense that the guy who scores the most during this time is adding more value for his team…
Why would it be? You have to be great in all situations to win hockey games (ES, PP, PK). Some players benefit of more support when they play at ES and some players benefit more than others when they’re on the PP. At the end, players produce best when their usage is maximized. Usually, coaches make sure they deploy their players in a way that favours their team’s success. McDavid and Huberdeau are better than Gaudreau on the power play, but Gaudreau has been better than them at ES (which can be partly explained by him playing on the best line in the league).
 

WhiskeyYerTheDevils

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Why would it be? You have to be great in all situations to win hockey games (ES, PP, PK). Some players benefit of more support when they play at ES and some players benefit more than others when they’re on the PP. At the end, players produce best when their usage is maximized. Usually, coaches make sure they deploy their players in a way that favours their team’s success. McDavid and Huberdeau are better than Gaudreau on the power play, but Gaudreau has been better than them at ES (which can be partly explained by him playing on the best line in the league).
Why do you think that's been the best line in the league?

If I told you last year that Tkachuk and Lindholm would end up making up 2/3 of the best line in hockey, you probably would not have believed me (or assumed they were traded to Edmonton).
 

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He has 3 more than McDavid in 240 less minutes. So right off the bat you're premise is wrong.

Gaudreau 89
McDavid 86
Draisaitl 84
Matthews 84
Huberdeau 81

Secondary assists are much more random, as studies have proven over and over.
What’s the website you are using to see this kind of data? Apparently, the one I used was not accurate. Sorry about that.

Point remains, it’s still not as valuable as an actual art Ross win, a 60 goal season, a peak Hasek-like season or a 20+ pts lead on the 2nd most productive player on the best team in the league, especially when you consider the advantage Gaudreau has in terms of linemates.

Also, per game/minute stats are pretty useless when discussing who was more valuable to his team. At least, it is when you look at the history of the award.
 
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steierwrass

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Why do you think that's been the best line in the league?

If I told you last year that Tkachuk and Lindholm would end up making up 2/3 of the best line in hockey, you probably would not have believed me (or assumed they were traded to Edmonton).
I guess, it's not the best only because of Gaudreau. It's sum of three players, team and coaching. I have seen multiple times here argument, that Gaudreau has made Tkachuk and Lindholm better, but no one telling, that those two have helped Gaudreau with his best season ever. Everyone on that line has had great season, but same time you can't just pick one from there and tell, how he has been most valuable or best player in the league. That has been the best line in league and they are helping each other. So, when you are telling, how Huberdeau and Matthews have great teams and McDavid has Draisaitl, I think, there is even bigger thing with Gaudreau with good team and great line. He is big part of it, but others aren't just products of him.
 
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Why do you think that's been the best line in the league?

If I told you last year that Tkachuk and Lindholm would end up making up 2/3 of the best line in hockey, you probably would not have believed me (or assumed they were traded to Edmonton).
1 player doesn’t make a line the best by himself. Tkachuk and Lindholm are former top 10 picks. They are at the absolute worst, great 2nd line players without Gaudreau. JG is obviously the centrepiece of that line, but let’s not act like he elevated Sean Monahan into a 100 pts player.
 
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WhiskeyYerTheDevils

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What’s the website you are using to see this kind of data? Apparently, the one I used was not accurate. Sorry about that.

Point remains, it’s still not as impressive as an actual art Ross win, a 60 goal season, a peak Hasek-like season or a 20+ pts lead on the 2nd most productive player on the best team in the league, especially when you consider the advantage Gaudreau has in terms of linemates.

Also, per game/minute stats are pretty useless when discussing who was more valuable to his team. At least, it is when you look at the history of the award.
NHL.com

I would think putting together the best ES season in nearly 30 years is more impressive than a lot of what you noted on that list.

Just look at the Flames goal differential with and without Gaudreau on the ice. They just clinched their division, but without Gaudreau they probably miss the playoffs.
 

WhiskeyYerTheDevils

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1 player doesn’t make a line the best by himself. Tkachuk and Lindholm are former top 10 picks. They are at the absolute worst, great 2nd line players without Gaudreau. JG is obviously the centrepiece of that line, but let’s not act like he elevated Sean Monahan into a 100 pts player.
Yeah, they are good players, but they aren't the elite players that their numbers would suggest (especially Tkachuk, who is probably the weakest link on that line).

And he did elevate Monahan into a 86 point pace player a few years ago, which is absolutely nuts.
 

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