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NHL: Around the League 51

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JaegerDice said:
Dubas to Treliving is a hilarious downgrade.

So obviously the Leafs are winning the cup next year, cause hockey gonna hockey.
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I'm no Treliving fan, but I don't know that it's such a downgrade. Dubas has won absolutely nothing as a GM.
 
Hawkaholic said:
I don't get the infatuation with people liking coaches who have never coached in the NHL. People shit on "rehashed" coaches, yet look at the Cup final coaches. And 3 of the final 4 had rehashed coaches, with the 4th one being an ex NHLer. Experience matters.
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I mean, at some point these coaches are going to retire and die right? At some point, SOMEBODY has to bring new blood into the system, we cant keep recycling guys that won a thing once or have accumulated games over 30 years.

Ask Tampa if they regret rolling the dice on Jon Cooper.

There are interesting options out there. Brunette may have been pantsed by Cooper in his first playoffs as a HC, but its possible that as a Q disciple you’re getting a ton of the Q scheme with none of the ick factor.
 
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Giovi said:
I'm no Treliving fan, but I don't know that it's such a downgrade. Dubas has won absolutely nothing as a GM.
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Lots of objectively good GMs have won as many cups as Dubas with more time. Doug Wilson, David Poille, Steve Yzerman, Jim Nill, etc.

Measuring GMs is less about counting cups than it is about keeping a team in constant contention. The chips fall your way in the right draft, FA class or trade, and you put yourself over the edge.

Cups are the ultimate reward but they’re not the bar by which GMs should or can be measured. If they were, damn near 30 teams would churn through GMs alot faster.
 
JaegerDice said:
Lots of objectively good GMs have won as many cups as Dubas with more time. Doug Wilson, David Poille, Steve Yzerman, Jim Nill, etc.

Measuring GMs is less about counting cups than it is about keeping a team in constant contention. The chips fall your way in the right draft, FA class or trade, and you put yourself over the edge.
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We might have a different outlook on what constitutes "constant contention". The Leafs won exactly one round in the playoffs while Dubas was GM. The construction of the team was faulty his entire stay there, and he never, ever addressed it.
 
Giovi said:
We might have a different outlook on what constitutes "constant contention". The Leafs won exactly one round in the playoffs while Dubas was GM. The construction of the team was faulty his entire stay there, and he never, ever addressed it.
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Leafs have been at the top of the league for the entirety of Dubas’ tenure. They have an average of 106 points per season in his tenure.

They happen to share a division with the only two teams more consistently elite over that period. Sucks for them.

Im not sure how Dubas gets the blame for any of their flame outs. In most cases their core players under-performed. The supporting cast he consistently found ways to replenish did its job.

At worst, his biggest mistake was being too loyal to the core 4, but not many GMs are going to look at a 60 goal scorer, a 100 point player, a 30 goal scorer, and a PPG center and say ‘this is the problem’. Hell, Im not sure Treliving moves any of them either.
 
JaegerDice said:
Leafs have been at the top of the league for the entirety of Dubas’ tenure. They have an average of 106 points per season in his tenure.

They happen to share a division with the only two teams more consistently elite over that period. Sucks for them.

Im not sure how Dubas gets the blame for any of their flame outs. In most cases their core players under-performed. The supporting cast he consistently found ways to replenish did its job.

At worst, his biggest mistake was being too loyal to the core 4, but not many GMs are going to look at a 60 goal scorer, a 100 point player, a 30 goal scorer, and a PPG center and say ‘this is the problem’. Hell, Im not sure Treliving moves any of them either.
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He built a team on an entirely flawed premise loud correct voices were constantly called flawed, and it was of course him to blame.

I dont get how your takeaway is to scapegoat the core players. I didn't get how you had that thread asking of depth is overrated. When it's bizarre how a Hawks fans when comparing years they won to lost doesn't see how crucial depth is. The Hawks were playing scraps or goons like Lepisto, O'Donnell Carrillo, Bolig, Mayers, etc.

Dubas by design set teams with no goto Dman to be a key defender you can trust in all situations and always had rosters full of terrible depth of bad cheap vets. And people say he learned this year, all he showed he learned is spending 1st rounders can help. He added O'Reilly who without I don't think they beat Tampa. But the hype is so odd
 
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ClydeLee said:
He built a team on an entirely flawed premise loud correct voices were constantly called flawed, and it was of course him to blame.

I dont get how your takeaway is to scapegoat the core players. I didn't get how you had that thread asking of depth is overrated. When it's bizarre how a Hawks fans when comparing years they won to lost doesn't see how crucial depth is. The Hawks were playing scraps or goons like Lepisto, O'Donnell Carrillo, Bolig, Mayers, etc.

Dubas by design set teams with no goto Dman to be a key defender you can trust in all situations and always had rosters full of terrible depth of bad cheap vets. And people say he learned this year, all he showed he learned is spending 1st rounders can help. He added O'Reilly who without I don't think they beat Tampa. But the hype is so odd
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The Leafs depth performed. Their stars were out-performed.

The Blackhawks won cups when their stars outperformed the other teams stars. The only years that wasn't the case was 2012 and 2016 (barely). In 2009, 2011, 2014, 2017, their stars were out-performed by the stars on the team they were eliminated by.

Depth obviously helps. But it helps AFTER your stars battle the stars on the other team to a draw. Depth doesnt win you series when your stars dont show up, only goalies can do that.

Dubas consistently and effectively navigated the challenges of a flat cap to surround his stars with impactful depth. He cant play the game for his stars.
 
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Giovi said:
We might have a different outlook on what constitutes "constant contention". The Leafs won exactly one round in the playoffs while Dubas was GM. The construction of the team was faulty his entire stay there, and he never, ever addressed it.
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Flames won 2 series in Treliving's 9 years (3 if you count the COVID play in round)

He had several bad hires as HC, construction of his teams in Calgary was faulty, His drafting was hit or miss, and he never built consistent contender.
 
JaegerDice said:
I mean, at some point these coaches are going to retire and die right? At some point, SOMEBODY has to bring new blood into the system, we cant keep recycling guys that won a thing once or have accumulated games over 30 years.

Ask Tampa if they regret rolling the dice on Jon Cooper.

There are interesting options out there. Brunette may have been pantsed by Cooper in his first playoffs as a HC, but its possible that as a Q disciple you’re getting a ton of the Q scheme with none of the ick factor.
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Jon Cooper is one of the rare, no NHL experience whatsoever, coaches that have succeeded. All I'm saying is, there were quite a few rehashed coaches on very successful teams this year.

JaegerDice said:
Leafs have been at the top of the league for the entirety of Dubas’ tenure. They have an average of 106 points per season in his tenure.

They happen to share a division with the only two teams more consistently elite over that period. Sucks for them.

Im not sure how Dubas gets the blame for any of their flame outs. In most cases their core players under-performed. The supporting cast he consistently found ways to replenish did its job.

At worst, his biggest mistake was being too loyal to the core 4, but not many GMs are going to look at a 60 goal scorer, a 100 point player, a 30 goal scorer, and a PPG center and say ‘this is the problem’. Hell, Im not sure Treliving moves any of them either.
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He's the one that built the team that failed in the 1st round and has one 2nd round win in his tenure. He should have recognized that his players were a bunch of no shows and made a damn trade instead of believing in the core four for too long.
 
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Blackhawkswincup said:
Flames won 2 series in Treliving's 9 years (3 if you count the COVID play in round)

He had several bad hires as HC, construction of his teams in Calgary was faulty, His drafting was hit or miss, and he never built consistent contender.
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...and that still doesn't make him much, if any, of a downgrade from a GM who failed to correct a badly constructed team, wasting some of the prime years of some premier talent while doing so.
 
JaegerDice said:
Dubas to Treliving is a hilarious downgrade.

So obviously the Leafs are winning the cup next year, cause hockey gonna hockey.
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Not really.

Dubas already had his team built for him when he got there outside of getting the gift of Tavares wanting to play in his home town, what has he added to it to improve the team? Defense is still average at best, goaltending is still garbage, and the same core is still there. Signed Mrazek, had to trade a 1st to get rid of him, traded for Murray, will now have to trade something to get rid of him or carry 5mil in dead cap. lol
 
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Irritating that Pittsburgh now has arguably the smartest ownership in hockey in addition to one of the smartest GMs. As if that market needed more cups.
 
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Guess this means there's no chance Stanley will become Pittsburgh's new GM.

I was hoping we'd be able to fleece his dumbass.
 
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Dubas get promotion.

Now he doesn't have someone forcing things on him and is the clear top guy in organization. He will choose a GM later in offseason I imagine

I imagine he and Pens ownership discussed this is Longterm project because the Pens core is aging out and they are rather weak prospect wise right now.

It will be a rebuild in a few years.
 
That's allegedly what the last guy thought before the new Pens owner reversed course, though, too. Pens need to rebuild for sure, but yet to see if their ownership agrees.
 
Dubas is a highly intelligent guy and has made all-in-all some pretty great moves in Toronto.

That being said, I just don't see how he makes Pittsburgh a contender again with their lack of prospects and picks.
 
Pez68 said:
I'm sorry, but WTF has Dubas actually done? He inherited Toronto and completely failed to surround them with the right pieces. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but, he signed Tavaras, right? The single greatest impediment that team has to actually contending. Lol
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B-b-but he managed to keep that "top 5 team" he inherited together for his whole tenure. Its just bad luck they couldn't win more than 5 playoff games in any of those years!
 
Literally everyone at the time would have signed Tavares to that deal. Also, I disagree that he has failed to build a solid team around them. I think he put them in positions to compete every year. I think the knock is definitely the goalie situation, but the moves like the Muzzin one were good. No GM is perfect.

I don't think he is "the smartest GM in the league" or anything, but he is a hell of a lot better than a lot of guys and he also just learned from his mistakes in Toronto. You don't get to where he is by being an idiot. He will definitely have learned some things from his time in Toronto.
 
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Well, his hands are tied a bit there with all the aging vets on term. He may have to wait out a few years before having to start a rebuild.
 
TLEH said:
Literally everyone at the time would have signed Tavares to that deal. Also, I disagree that he has failed to build a solid team around them. I think he put them in positions to compete every year. I think the knock is definitely the goalie situation, but the moves like the Muzzin one were good. No GM is perfect.

I don't think he is "the smartest GM in the league" or anything, but he is a hell of a lot better than a lot of guys and he also just learned from his mistakes in Toronto. You don't get to where he is by being an idiot. He will definitely have learned some things from his time in Toronto.
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I don't think everyone would have signed Tavares to that deal. Especially when you lack a major hole on D, and have 3 other stars to sign to big contracts. And he did fail to build a solid team around them, because he used a hell of a lot of cap space on 4 players and shitty goalies. He didn't make a trade or a draft pick that would make him seem smart. So I just don't get what people are gushing about with him.

And now he's doubling down on PITs core. lol
 
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