News from Around the AHL/NHL/KHL 2023-24

[JKP]

Obviously if they're going to Russia to play, they've calculated it is within their best interests at this time. What doesn't follow is that making a decision in your personal best interest means that the decision is shielded from any scrutiny, with merit or without, and you're entitled to any particular respect for it.

Who are we to judge what other people choose to do for a living? Live and let live.

It’s not something I would ever consider personally, but I won’t criticize a player who has a very finite career for playing in a place they feel they need to to further their career or provide for their family.

I don’t know their circumstances, I don’t walk in their shoes. I have no right to judge their decision, imo.

 

[Mike C]

Even better, don’t go.

It’s not out of the realm of possibility for a law abiding US citizen to be framed and jailed to advance the negotiating power of a ruthless foreign regime.

I'm friends with a lady who's daughter has played in WNBA and all over the international hoop scene. She tells me the money is significant. Most of the non stars don't make much in WNBA

For Griner, I have minimal sympathy as she was making close to 300k in WNBA and claimed it wasn't enough and she needed to supplement that with foreign money

I call bullsh*t on that jive. I live just fine on less than 100k

 

[The Real JT]

I believe he said he didn’t declare it… hockey players aren’t always the brightest bulbs in the light socket…

He should’ve watched the old ‘70s movie Midnight Express before he traveled.

 

[Mike C]

He should’ve watched the old ‘70s movie Midnight Express before he traveled.

Or a commercial for Western Union

 

[The Real JT]

Who are we to judge what other people choose to do for a living? Live and let live.

It’s not something I would ever consider personally, but I won’t criticize a player who has a very finite career for playing in a place they feel they need to to further their career or provide for their family.

I don’t know their circumstances, I don’t walk in their shoes. I have no right to judge their decision, imo.

I wouldn’t call this judgement but if an innocent US citizen gets imprisoned unjustly is it right for our government to swap that individual for prisoners who may be spies, murderers or both?

Let’s be clear though. Some of our imprisoned citizens (not Griner) may be spies too but we’ll never hear about that.

 

[The Lighthouse]

Who are we to judge what other people choose to do for a living? Live and let live.

It’s not something I would ever consider personally, but I won’t criticize a player who has a very finite career for playing in a place they feel they need to to further their career or provide for their family.

I don’t know their circumstances, I don’t walk in their shoes. I have no right to judge their decision, imo.

Interesting to make this statement in an extremely public sports setting. Players are judged, rightfully or wrongfully, on their career choices all the time. (which city they went to, why they left a team, what it says about their character that they "fled home," why they joined a team, etc.).

My point is this: they're public figures. They'll make millions in Russia. They made a decision based on personal interest, fine. That's their decision. Declaring there should be no scrutiny whatsoever, and further, that they're entitled to any special deference or respect for making that decision, is expecting too much.

 

[Mike C]

Interesting to make this statement in an extremely public sports setting. Players are judged, rightfully or wrongfully, on their career choices all the time. Tavares backlash ring a bell?

My point is this: they're public figures. They'll make millions in Russia. They made a decision based on personal interest, fine. That's their decision. Declaring there should be no scrutiny whatsoever, and further, that they're entitled to any special deference or respect for making that decision, is expecting too much.

All too possible these players don't care one bit about any atrocities going on as long as it doesn't affect them directly

As they taught me on the streets of Bensonhurst in days of yore

"Money talks, bullsh*t walks"

 

[The Lighthouse]

All too possible these players don't care one bit about any atrocities going on as long as it doesn't affect them directly

As they taught me on the streets of Bensonhurst in days of yore

"Money talks, bullsh*t walks"

100% Mike, some of them could feel that way. And I think regardless if they do or not, if they think the payoff of playing in Russia is worth it for whatever personal interest reasons, I doubt what Irbe says or widespread media criticism that is only hypothetical at this point is going to prevent them from doing so anyway.

 

[Mike C]

I wouldn’t call this judgement but if an innocent US citizen gets imprisoned unjustly is it right for our government to swap that individual for prisoners who may be spies, murderers or both?

Let’s be clear though. Some of our imprisoned citizens (not Griner) may be spies too but we’ll never hear about that.

Certain neighborhoods we were taught to stay away from. If we did what we wanted and something adverse happened, all the parents and those much wiser than us said

"Good for yas, maybe next time you won't go where you don't belong. What the hell did you EXPECT to happen"

 

[JKP]

I wouldn’t call this judgement but if an innocent US citizen gets imprisoned unjustly is it right for our government to swap that individual for prisoners who may be spies, murderers or both?

Let’s be clear though. Some of our imprisoned citizens (not Griner) may be spies too but we’ll never hear about that.

They’re adults. If they make decisions that lead to their harm/incarceration, that’s still on them, still their choices. Presumably we all know and understand the risks. Thus each person’s risk calculus is different.

 

[The Real JT]

Who are we to judge what other people choose to do for a living? Live and let live.
I don’t know their circumstances, I don’t walk in their shoes. I have no right to judge their decision, imo.

Reminds me of a joke…

 

[danteipp]

He should’ve watched the old ‘70s movie Midnight Express before he traveled.

As a mostly unsupervised child, I remember watching that movie when I was like 8 years old. Needless to say, I had just a few nightmares and decided NEVER to go to Turkey, lol.

 

[LeapOnOver]

Trying to buy airfare to Czechia. Can't find them anywhere

 

[saintunspecified]

Who are we to judge what other people choose to do for a living? Live and let live.

you see, that sounds nice, but it's really not. it's also an expression of judgment, but for all that, i'll tell you who i am that justifies an expression of judgment: i consider myself a member of a free moral community where freedom is valuable, and morality and regard for others is the highest value. i think lauding the freedom while discounting our ties to our community, a community that includes people trying to live similarly in free eastern and northern europe, is a descent into nihilistic anarchy. people who think they can enjoy freedom without ever being subject to accountability from others benefit from others who hold each other accountable, while accepting no accountabililty themselves. nope, they deserve to be excoriated.

 

[saintunspecified]

"Good for yas, maybe next time you won't go where you don't belong. What the hell did you EXPECT to happen"

There's a difference between understanding a bad reality, and endorsing it. I think a parent who really thinks it's good that e.g. their kid got jumped & beat up for making a judgment mistake is a shitty parent, and a cruel person. It's the kind of 'sentiment' that results in Howard Beach 1986.

Nothing wrong with trying to help your kids make better decisions, and one can do it without victim blaming your own kids. jfc, the way people get parented we should all be in therapy.

 

[Mike C]

There's a difference between understanding a bad reality, and endorsing it. I think a parent who really thinks it's good that e.g. their kid got jumped & beat up for making a judgment mistake is a shitty parent, and a cruel person. It's the kind of 'sentiment' that results in Howard Beach 1986.

Nothing wrong with trying to help your kids make better decisions, and one can do it without victim blaming your own kids. jfc, the way people get parented we should all be in therapy.

I'm confident the intent was to reinforce the fact that we should have listened and made better decisions vs being jubilant that an unfortunate event befell us

Where I grew up had it's own culture, it's own language and it's own brand of taking care of our own.

The goal was to send a message to us in order to protect us from putting ourselves in future such situations.

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

Who are we to judge what other people choose to do for a living? Live and let live.

It’s not something I would ever consider personally, but I won’t criticize a player who has a very finite career for playing in a place they feel they need to to further their career or provide for their family.

I don’t know their circumstances, I don’t walk in their shoes. I have no right to judge their decision, imo.

I believe this entirely. At least I very much wish to from a principle standpoint.

I do not believe you can alter the impression your decisions make. You have to live with that, for better or worse, fair or not. We don't yet know i.e. if a time will come where players going to the KHL now will, well, perhaps become blacklisted or the like by the other well-paying leagues in the world. Maybe it won't.

That's a risk they take now.

Whether one likes it or not, if you go earn money in Russia under the current circumstances, you are understood to be accepting of Russia's role as an international aggressor to a sovereign state. And you're doing so in a time where basically every western company has pulled its business out of the country.

Topping it all off, the money you're earning is blood money. There's not an organization paying wages in Russia right now that isn't organized by and solely allowed to function under Putin's control. All monetary flows are centrally controled and alloted.

I think this final point is one many aren't taking into consideration when it comes to this issue.

You earn money in Russia, Putin is the guy paying you.

 

[JKP]

I believe this entirely. At least I very much wish to from a principle standpoint.

I do not believe you can alter the impression your decisions make. You have to live with that, for better or worse, fair or not. We don't yet know i.e. if a time will come where players going to the KHL now will, well, perhaps become blacklisted or the like by the other well-paying leagues in the world. Maybe it won't.

That's a risk they take now.

Whether one likes it or not, if you go earn money in Russia under the current circumstances, you are understood to be accepting of Russia's role as an international aggressor to a sovereign state. And you're doing so in a time where basically every western company has pulled its business out of the country.

Topping it all off, the money you're earning is blood money. There's not an organization paying wages in Russia right now that isn't organized by and solely allowed to function under Putin's control. All monetary flows are centrally controled and alloted.

I think this final point is one many aren't taking into consideration when it comes to this issue.

You earn money in Russia, Putin is the guy paying you.

I understand how you feel about that. I guess I wonder how it's that much different from all the products we buy from China or oil we buy from Saudi Arabia or the clothing and sneakers we buy from third-world child labour or the diamonds and resources we buy from some horrible regimes in Africa?

 

[The Lighthouse]

I understand how you feel about that. I guess I wonder how it's that much different from all the products we buy from China or oil we buy from Saudi Arabia or the clothing and sneakers we buy from third-world child labour or the diamonds and resources we buy from some horrible regimes in Africa?

If someone stated that none of those things should be subject to scrutiny, that wouldn't be a valid argument either.

 

[crashthenet]

Disappointing end for our boys in Edmonton. LI boy Coronato had a good tournament. Truly surprised we didn't medal.

 

[JKP]

If someone stated that none of those things should be subject to scrutiny, that wouldn't be a valid argument either.

Right, so get pissed at your favourite hockey player for buying his wife a diamond dug up by some 10 yo or buying his Ferrari that burns gobs of Saudi oil... The world is imperfect and most of it is not "free."

My aunt has worked in Beijing for the last three years and while I never would because of how that regime runs (a good friend of mine is married to a girl from Hong Kong and the stories she's told are harrowing), I haven't judged her for it or felt she shouldn't have gone - it's her choice, her career, her risks. She's a grown up. These players are grown ups.

I don't get why some people choose some bad state actors to stress about and others to gloss over and ignore.

I don't know what your profession is, but if an employer offered you, say, $2 million a year tax free to work in Moscow for the next two years, would you not consider it?

 

[The Lighthouse]

Right, so get pissed at your favourite hockey player for buying his wife a diamond dug up by some 10 yo or buying his Ferrari that burns gobs of Saudi oil... The world is imperfect and most of it is not "free."

You're taking this off-track and off topic from what the argument was, which is this: no decision is above scrutiny simply because an individual feels it is within their best interest. All of the issues you mentioned above are simply whatabouts - there is no lack of writing on any of the subjects you've mentioned, in fact much the latter - you can find an abundance of writing on any of them. Your argument that you can't criticize any decision unless you criticize every single bad decision on every topic is not viable.

My aunt has worked in Beijing for the last three years and while I never would because of how that regime runs (a good friend of mine is married to a girl from Hong Kong and the stories she's told are harrowing), I haven't judged her for it or felt she shouldn't have gone - it's her choice, her career, her risks. She's a grown up. These players are grown ups.

Again, I just don't think a choice is beyond reproach simply because someone calculated it is within their best interests.

I don't get why some people choose some bad state actors to stress about and others to gloss over and ignore.

Again, extremely public figures here, makes the likelihood of scrutiny of their career decisions that much greater. Edit: I read this wrong. Ignore above.

What I would say is: at the end of the day they're bad state actors. You don't have to criticize them all at once.

I don't know what your profession is, but if an employer offered you, say, $2 million a year tax free to work in Moscow for the next two years, would you not consider it?

If I did, would my decision simply be beyond reproach because I reach the conclusion it is within my financial interests to do so?

Don't get this twisted: criticism of a career decision doesn't have to mean, and in fact can be quite separate from, criticism of an individual's character.

I think a career criticism doesn't have to be a character criticism.

Edit: adjust my tone to remove unnecessary aggressiveness.

 

[doublechili]

You're taking this off-track and off topic from what the argument was, which is this: no decision is above scrutiny simply because an individual feels it is within their best interest.

"Honest question to Canadian media: Why isn't there any reaction to the some 26 Canadians that have signed KHL-contracts after Russia's invasion of Ukraine?" And then he listed their names.

That tweet was more than one person giving their opinion about the KHL players. It was more of a call for media action against them. So, at that point it becomes relevant that there are a lot of bad regimes out there that people/companies/governments are doing business with.

 

[JKP]

You're taking this off-track and off topic from what the argument was, which is this: no decision is above scrutiny simply because an individual feels it is within their best interest. All of the issues you mentioned above are simply whatabouts - there is no lack of writing on any of the subjects you've mentioned, in fact much the latter - you can find an abundance of writing on any of them. Your argument that you can't criticize any decision unless you criticize every single bad decision on every topic is not viable.



Again, no choice is beyond reproach simply because someone calculated it is within their best interests.



Again, extremely public figures here, makes the likelihood of scrutiny of their career decisions that much greater. Edit: I read this wrong. Ignore above.

What I would say is: at the end of the day they're bad state actors. You don't have to criticize them all at once.



If I did, would my decision simply be beyond reproach because I reach the conclusion it is within my financial interests to do so?

Don't get this twisted: criticism of a career decision doesn't have to mean, and in fact can be quite separate from, criticism of an individual's character.

Hey- I'll cease this here, since we're dragging the thread way off topic.

 

[The Lighthouse]

Hey- I'll cease this here, since we're dragging the thread way off topic.

Sorry, this is a very offseason discussion. Maybe Lou gives us something more fun to talk about soon.

Also to @doublechili and @JKP - sorry for my part in derailing this thread. I won't argue about this any further.