GDT: New York Rangers 2018-2019 Training Camp Thread

[Unusual Suspect]

I'd prefer to use the rest of this camp evaluating only personnel with a real shot at making the club, or the few management hasn't seen much of previously... which is already a pretty large number as it is. The Schneiders and Fogartys are just smoke on the battlefield. Hope today's cuts extend beyond traditional "first cut" parameters and slice away ALL the fat and gristle. There are a lot of decisions to make and the guys with actual possibilities need fuller opportunity to show who they are.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I'd prefer to use the rest of this camp evaluating only personnel with a real shot at making the club, or the few management hasn't seen much of previously... which is already a pretty large number as it is. The Schneiders and Fogartys are just smoke on the battlefield. Hope today's cuts extend beyond traditional "first cut" parameters and slice away ALL the fat and gristle. There are a lot of decisions to make and the guys with actual possibilities need fuller opportunity to show who they are.

I agree with this, as much as I'm hoping that we get a shot to see Keane get into a game.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Not shocking. Been saying it for awhile now, he will never sniff the NHL. Aside from his size and skating, he's barely an ECHL player. And those 2 things aren't enough to get you a regular shift in the NHL if the puck will be in the back of your net every other shift.

The Rangers like these types of players too much.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Day is the one guy I don’t mind stashing and trying to keep as a long-term project. You don’t just throw away the combo of size, speed, and skill he has. The only full-time U20 AHL defender last year was Liljegren. When you up it to U21, there were 25 defenders with 40+ games played.

He’s a weird case, but his development track isn’t that off from the norm.

Day is now U21. Last year he would've been U20.

By all means, no reason to terminate his contract, but I feel like Day's potential and his hockey skills are a complete misnomer. He's big and skates great. Thats been known for five years. Is there any consensus that he had quantifiable hockey skills? I'm not sure there ever was. Its easy to throw out these platitudes like project, raw, potential and add Day into that category, but how exactly did Day factor into those designations? Is there consensus that those designations applied to him? I'm not specifically throwing this at you, but I think its something to consider whether Day actually deserved the reputation he had. As far as I'm concerned, his ceiling was never particularly high because beyond the size and skating there wasn't much else to his game that works in the NHL.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

That said---he was Quinn's go to defenseman last night as testified by his team leading 23+ minutes and he was a lot better in the second half of the game. He also was north of 7 minutes of penalty kill time and got that game winning goal. Not every d-man can handle those kinds of minutes and that's a quality that I'm not sure a lot of people get. With all those minutes he got stronger as the game went along.

This is an important point, and I think what often gets lost in these discussions of whose the better player and who should play how many minutes and on what pair is that hockey is a game of roles. Pionk has settled into a role where coaches trust him to take tough minutes and assignments. Just because someone else has better advanced stats in an easier role doesn't mean they would be fit to fill the role Pionk currently plays.

Pionk has parts of the game to work on, but he has shown now over a reasonable sample that he can go out there against the best forwards on the other team night after night and not be a negative. We can argue the extent to his success, and I also think some of the criticism to him this season will be quieted down when his advanced stats improve, but one thing I think everyone can agree about is that if you put DeAngelo, Gilmour, O'Gara, Claesson, any of these others into the role Pionk played late last season and the role he seems to be assuming now, they wouldn't do as well as he is doing.

He's done this with the ability to chip in a good amount of offense. I don't think he's going to be a 40 point per season guy like his early point totals might indicate, but he has shown that he's not a zero offensively, and could be around a 30 point guy offensively. What we'll probably see is his point totals regress, and his advanced stats improve. I think that'll balance out, and what we'll have is a solid top 4 D who can play in all situations. Is he a world beater 1 RHD that fans were clamoring for? Probably not, but adding a middle pairing RHD on an ELC is a big add to the team. We did that with no cost. Well done by Gorton.

 

[Edge]

Day is now U21. Last year he would've been U20.

By all means, no reason to terminate his contract, but I feel like Day's potential and his hockey skills are a complete misnomer. He's big and skates great. Thats been known for five years. Is there any consensus that he had quantifiable hockey skills? I'm not sure there ever was. Its easy to throw out these platitudes like project, raw, potential and add Day into that category, but how exactly did Day factor into those designations? Is there consensus that those designations applied to him? I'm not specifically throwing this at you, but I think its something to consider whether Day actually deserved the reputation he had. As far as I'm concerned, his ceiling was never particularly high because beyond the size and skating there wasn't much else to his game that works in the NHL.

I think there's some confusion between hockey sense with hockey skills.

In terms of hockey skills, it was size, strength, a good shot, solid hands, the ability to make good outlet passes, good skating, agility, edgework, the ability to change directions, etc.

The problem was/is his ability to read plays or use those skills in faster situations. As a result, you're not always getting those skills used effectively during in-game situations. There wasn't a ton of progress in that regard and the mistakes you saw when he was 15 or 16 weren't as forgivable or easy to overlook when he was 18.

Now it would be unfair to say he didn't advance and play a very useful role in the OHL, but there was still a tendency to rely on natural skills to overcome mistakes.

The best way to describe the questions surrounding Day is to compare him to the kid who graduated high school without really having to study. Forget about being valedictorian or earning straight As. He was a B average student, who got into college.

Now the question is how that talent translates to the next phase of life where the work and study skills become a bit more important.

 

[NYR]

Do you feel that CTE is a myth or something, too?

Why would I consider that to be a myth?

 

[eco's bones]

This is an important point, and I think what often gets lost in these discussions of whose the better player and who should play how many minutes and on what pair is that hockey is a game of roles. Pionk has settled into a role where coaches trust him to take tough minutes and assignments. Just because someone else has better advanced stats in an easier role doesn't mean they would be fit to fill the role Pionk currently plays.

Pionk has parts of the game to work on, but he has shown now over a reasonable sample that he can go out there against the best forwards on the other team night after night and not be a negative. We can argue the extent to his success, and I also think some of the criticism to him this season will be quieted down when his advanced stats improve, but one thing I think everyone can agree about is that if you put DeAngelo, Gilmour, O'Gara, Claesson, any of these others into the role Pionk played late last season and the role he seems to be assuming now, they wouldn't do as well as he is doing.

He's done this with the ability to chip in a good amount of offense. I don't think he's going to be a 40 point per season guy like his early point totals might indicate, but he has shown that he's not a zero offensively, and could be around a 30 point guy offensively. What we'll probably see is his point totals regress, and his advanced stats improve. I think that'll balance out, and what we'll have is a solid top 4 D who can play in all situations. Is he a world beater 1 RHD that fans were clamoring for? Probably not, but adding a middle pairing RHD on an ELC is a big add to the team. We did that with no cost. Well done by Gorton.

Not sure individual advanced stats are going to be that great for very many of our players this year. Our top players usually aren't as good as the top players of better teams. And when you're out getting minutes against other team's best players those stat numbers can be further skewed. Which is to say when Ovechkin is on the ice either with Kuznetsov or Backstrom one should expect that that line is going to have the puck more than us.

Ideally Pionk at the stage in his career he's at shouldn't be anywhere near a first pairing assignment either. I think the issue though is that the right side of our defense is so iffy.....and it seems to me anyway that he might well be our best option at least in certain situations. He does have his issues. He's not the strongest guy on the puck--neither though are Shattenkirk or DeAngelo.

 

[ManUtdTobbe]

The thing with Day that leads me to believe he'll still make it to the NHL is that his skating isn't just good or great, it's elite by any measure of the word. Everything about his skating is elite.

I've said for the past year or so that his first professional year will be very telling, it's a completely different game where he won't be able to just rely on his skating and size, he'll need to improve all the other aspects of hockey, even if it's just a little bit. He was a Project when we drafted him and he's still a Project. For me to still feel good about him he'll need to stick in the AHL Before christmas and play 40+ games where we see clear progress.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I think there's some confusion between hockey sense with hockey skills.

In terms of hockey skills, it was size, strength, a good shot, solid hands, the ability to make good outlet passes, good skating, agility, edgework, the ability to change directions, etc.

The problem was/is his ability to read plays or use those skills in faster situations. As a result, you're not always getting those skills used effectively during in-game situations. There wasn't a ton of progress in that regard and the mistakes you saw when he was 15 or 16 weren't as forgivable or easy to overlook when he was 18.

Now it would be unfair to say he didn't advance and play a very useful role in the OHL, but there was still a tendency to rely on natural skills to overcome mistakes.

The best way to describe the questions surrounding Day is to compare him to the kid who graduated high school without really having to study. Forget about being valedictorian or earning straight As. He was a B average student, who got into college.

Now the question is how that talent translates to the next phase of life where the work and study skills become a bit more important.

I'm talking about hockey skills, as well. I don't think he possesses those to a great degree either.

He's big and has the ability to recover well, but has never been considered a reliable defensive player. He has great height and weight, but has often times been out of shape and is not a real physical presence for his size. He carries the puck well and doesn't move the puck poorly, but he doesn't control shifts from a possession standpoint or create a lot of scoring chances, like high level offensive defensemen can. He has a decent release on his wrist shot, but his goal scoring numbers have never been great. He isn't a zero offensively, but he's also never once averaged 1PPG in five OHL seasons.

When you break down the important areas of the game for a defenseman, minimizing errors in his own zone, being good defensively from a positional standpoint, 1v1 defending, possession play, creating scoring chances, scoring goals, transporting the puck from zone to zone, how many of those areas could we actually say Day's skills for that area of the game are above average? I'd be interested to hear an analysis of how his skills in these areas of the game have above average NHL potential.

 

[cwede]

I'd prefer to use the rest of this camp evaluating only personnel with a real shot at making the club, or the few management hasn't seen much of previously... which is already a pretty large number as it is. The Schneiders and Fogartys are just smoke on the battlefield. Hope today's cuts extend beyond traditional "first cut" parameters and slice away ALL the fat and gristle. There are a lot of decisions to make and the guys with actual possibilities need fuller opportunity to show who they are.

Problem with expediting cuts is where do they go -
not sure when Hartford opens camp, but its at least a still a number of days away.
I'd rather not rush the Junior players back to Junior, very day they stay with the pros and the coaches are a benefit.
But otherwise, , i basically agree, if HWP Camp was open, i'd welcome large cuts, guys can always be brought back for practice or preseason games

my own expectation is that fewer kids make opening night roster than a rebuild would indicate,
but i also expect many will begin to get NHL ice time before too long, whether due to injuries or weak performance to incumbents, or peak performance by prospects

but like on 'D' - we have too many vets, ADA is not waiver exempt, Smith and Staal and McQuaid will first get opportunity to earn regular jobs, Pionk seems ahead of Gilmour and OGara among the waivers exempt D,
so, to me, the odds-on D Corps opening night is Shatty, Staal, Smith, McQuaid, Skjei, Pionk, Claesson, ADA

which, barring injuries, also means only 1 spare F

 

[eco's bones]

I think there's some confusion between hockey sense with hockey skills.

In terms of hockey skills, it was size, strength, a good shot, solid hands, the ability to make good outlet passes, good skating, agility, edgework, the ability to change directions, etc.

The problem was/is his ability to read plays or use those skills in faster situations. As a result, you're not always getting those skills used effectively during in-game situations. There wasn't a ton of progress in that regard and the mistakes you saw when he was 15 or 16 weren't as forgivable or easy to overlook when he was 18.

Now it would be unfair to say he didn't advance and play a very useful role in the OHL, but there was still a tendency to rely on natural skills to overcome mistakes.

The best way to describe the questions surrounding Day is to compare him to the kid who graduated high school without really having to study. Forget about being valedictorian or earning straight As. He was a B average student, who got into college.

Now the question is how that talent translates to the next phase of life where the work and study skills become a bit more important.

I've said this before but I wouldn't be surprised if Day spent some of this year in the ECHL. It's not entirely a talent thing----it's a numbers and a development issue. The Rangers having lots of D and him lagging in his development. IMO he's not got to become of his hand and skating skills. He has them for sure but he's never been a big point producer. His avenue to the NHL will only happen if he can get his defensive game up to grade.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

The thing with Day that leads me to believe he'll still make it to the NHL is that his skating isn't just good or great, it's elite by any measure of the word. Everything about his skating is elite.

I've said for the past year or so that his first professional year will be very telling, it's a completely different game where he won't be able to just rely on his skating and size, he'll need to improve all the other aspects of hockey, even if it's just a little bit. He was a Project when we drafted him and he's still a Project. For me to still feel good about him he'll need to stick in the AHL Before christmas and play 40+ games where we see clear progress.

Just having elite skating doesn't get you to the NHL when everything else you bring is so below par. He has almost zero hockey IQ from the times i've seen him play.

 

[ManUtdTobbe]

Just having elite skating doesn't get you to the NHL when everything else you bring is so below par. He has almost zero hockey IQ from the times i've seen him play.

He's improving in the other aspects even though some are still lagging behind. His gap control got a lot better last season and it's not like Everything else is below par. His "hockey IQ" isn't low when on the puck or when the team is attacking, he reads the play fine in the attacking sense. His hands are good, passing is good, shot isn't bad though it probably should be better.

 

[nevesis]

 

[NYR Viper]

 

[Fvital92]

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

!!!!!!!!

 

[LaffyTaffy]

!!!!!!!!

Ronning getting cut early is definitely a surprise after he added weight and put in work this summer, hopefully he has a good season in the AHL and comes back to prove quinn wrong. Keane staying is fantastic and not surprising at all.

 

[nevesis]

 

[Fvital92]

So we won't waste a spot on Mcleod, right?

 

[E-Train]

Would like to see Keane get in a few games before heading back to junior.

 

[PG Canuck]

What are the expectations for Jesper Fast? Seems to be a decent bet for 30 pts a season, maybe if he plays with Lias he could hit 40?

 

[PG Canuck]

Great news about Zibby. I was worried.

 

[Webster]

Ronning getting cut early is definitely a surprise after he added weight and put in work this summer, hopefully he has a good season in the AHL and comes back to prove quinn wrong. Keane staying is fantastic and not surprising at all.

We're back to a Tortorella type of coach, who wants big and physical players. That's why Keane stays.

Poor Ronning didn't even get a chance to show what he can do.