Post-Game Talk: New goalie, new year, same suckiness

[guitarguyvic]

Isn't Brunette's style and system similar to Ruff's? Good luck shit canning Ruff, it'l just be more of the same lol.

Hopefully Sarge can beat something into these guys, that's my only hope for some responsibility with these forwards.

Yep I’ve been saying that if Brunette is the guy we are going with what exactly is drastically different there? Maybe he can add some high reward to this high risk style of play?

 

[Homedresser]

I doubt there was better realistic options.

Kuemper, Campbell was always going to pick playoff teams.
Vanecek is better than Samsonov.

You could argue that perhaps Husso is better, but he would be still be a risk given his limited track record. But as things as panned out we were outbid/can't afford him anyway with the current roster. If we sign Husso at his current cap hit, then Palat probably doesn't get signed and Johnsson still on the team.

the issue is, they got the guy for free but had to offer him a contract. So Fitz gets a low end goalie that he's now on the hook to pay over x years. That's where he got fleeced. Devils owe this guy $10M plus over 3 years. The trap was set and Fitz stepped right into it. He really should've seen that. Again, it's only one game. Vanacek might be worth the risk if you had a #1 already here and asked him to back him up, then you offer maybe 2 years at x dollars. But asking him to carry a big load with this roster is not a good idea.

 

[Homedresser]

The entire thing is.

I think this goaltender situation with us is like a football team with a bad offensive line. In our case the offensive line is the system or something internal with the team. Regardless of how good the QB is, if the O-line isn't any good the team won't win.

I think the better analogy is to the Jets Qb situation. You can't win in the NFL without good qb play, you can't win in the nhl without good goalie play. The Jets have searched how many years for a franchise qb and have had limited success with some but never sustained it it. Devils are having the same problem.

 

[JimEIV]

You can't play run and gun with no guns.

 

[devilsblood]

it's hard to be OK in front of this team. Especially when you're low end goalie (backup).

You look at the break downs last night and it's hard to argue otherwise.

But we did outshoot and out chance them by a good margin.

So what do we think it happening here? Is the system designed in such a way that it leads to solid overall analytics but is prone to breakdowns that most often leads to goals against? Is the system bunk, but the talent still gets us above water in the stats dept? Is the system good but our players are just prone to breakdowns(Sev's has long been criticized for this and he was guilty last night, Tatar and his history of playoffs benchings was another culprit last night)?

Then you throw in that we have mediocre(or worse) goal tending on top of that.

But these two losses to start the season have me wondering what the heck is going on.

 

[Killing Joke]

The goalies aren’t getting any help defensively under ruffs system.

Here’s ruffs defensive system

Here’s Brunettes.

Jack Hann also broke down the issues with the system ruff has going

 

[JimEIV]

9 of your 12 forwards haven't produced a single point..

HF poster: "goaltending!".

You look at the break downs last night and it's hard to argue otherwise.

But we did outshoot and out chance them by a good margin.

So what do we think it happening here? Is the system designed in such a way that it leads to solid overall analytics but is prone to breakdowns that most often leads to goals against? Is the system bunk, but the talent still gets us above water in the stats dept? Is the system good but our players are just prone to breakdowns(Sev's has long been criticized for this and he was guilty last night, Tatar and his history of playoffs benchings was another culprit last night)?

Then you throw in that we have mediocre(or worse) goal tending on top of that.

But these two losses to start the season have me wondering what the heck is going on.

Please stop talking about "out chance" when 9 of our 12 forwards haven't produced a single point...

please?

 

[Bleedred]

The AJ Greer goal was a super softy on superstar Vejmelka of the Arizona State Coyotes.

It was almost my softy of the night until I saw the goal Iafallo scored on Fleury, which has gotta be softy of the week for week 1.

Fleury has now somehow let in 1 more goal than our 2 goalies have combined for in just FIVE periods of play. 7 goals against in game 1, 4 goals against in 20 minutes last night.

 

[devilsblood]

I think the better analogy is to the Jets Qb situation. You can't win in the NFL without good qb play, you can't win in the nhl without good goalie play. The Jets have searched how many years for a franchise qb and have had limited success with some but never sustained it it. Devils are having the same problem.

But you look at the Giants and you can see how all these different things, coaching, o-line, wr's, affect the QB.

Go back to David Carr back in the day, and not only did it make it difficult to be successful in the moment, but playing on a terrible team behind a terrible o-line early on in his career completely derailed his development.

We are def being fed a crap stew, but is it the onions, or lentils(I'm vegatarian), or the potatoes? Maybe the flame is too hot and something is burning on the bottom of the pot. Maybe the mushrooms were slimey? Maybe it's a combination of stuff, but it's hard to decipher what is what.

 

[Bleedred]

I think the shooting percentage is more unsustainable than anything.

Last year scoring goals wasn't a problem, except on the power play.

This year we've scored 2 goals on 30+ shots both games. I think that'll get better, but the goaltending? It'll be better than .800% or whatever it must be right now, but I don't see Blackwood magically becoming good again and Vanecek was just right above league average in save percentage, while being below average both years in goals saved above expected by a handful of goals each year.

That tells me that Washington was probably a goalie friendly team/system.

Although, the Devils certainly were NOT a goalie unfriendly team/system last year like the narrative would you to believe, as (it's been a couple weeks since I looked at those numbers, so I might be slightly off) considering if Blackwood and Daws broke even in goals saved above expected, they would have been somewhere around a .911% or .912% last year. League average was .907%. We certainly didn't help our goalies as much as the Minnesota Wild did, but we also didn't hurt them anywhere near as badly as Montreal or Ottawa.

We hurt Wedgewood and Hammond worse than the others, but both played a very low number of games played here, which probably skewed the stats. Neither Wedgewood or Hammond were expected to be league average or better last year with what they faced. Wedgewood did play Washington and Calgary in 2 of his 3 games, who were both very high scoring teams last year, so that does make sense.

 

[Homedresser]

You look at the break downs last night and it's hard to argue otherwise.

But we did outshoot and out chance them by a good margin.


Then you throw in that we have mediocre(or worse) goal tending on top of that.

But these two losses to start the season have me wondering what the heck is going on.

After this long it really looks like it's a bad mix of players, coaching and managm

You look at the break downs last night and it's hard to argue otherwise.

But we did outshoot and out chance them by a good margin.

So what do we think it happening here? Is the system designed in such a way that it leads to solid overall analytics but is prone to breakdowns that most often leads to goals against? Is the system bunk, but the talent still gets us above water in the stats dept? Is the system good but our players are just prone to breakdowns(Sev's has long been criticized for this and he was guilty last night, Tatar and his history of playoffs benchings was another culprit last night)?

Then you throw in that we have mediocre(or worse) goal tending on top of that.

But these two losses to start the season have me wondering what the heck is going on.

But you look at the Giants and you can see how all these different things, coaching, o-line, wr's, affect the QB.

Go back to David Carr back in the day, and not only did it make it difficult to be successful in the moment, but playing on a terrible team behind a terrible o-line early on in his career completely derailed his development.

We are def being fed a crap stew, but is it the onions, or lentils(I'm vegatarian), or the potatoes? Maybe the flame is too hot and something is burning on the bottom of the pot. Maybe the mushrooms were slimey? Maybe it's a combination of stuff, but it's hard to decipher what is what.

I like you're comparison to a stew. It's just a bad mix of players, coaching and management. Again, it's 2 games but if it continues, this could get ugly quick. Another bottom 5 finish and you could be looking at the younger players wanting out regardless of contract status.

 

[guitarguyvic]

You can't play run and gun with no guns.

Hard to know if we really do or don’t have the guns when the team can hardly even load the bullets. They can’t even get out of their own zone properly.

 

[devilsblood]

9 of your 12 forwards haven't produced a single point..

HF poster: "goaltending!".

Please stop talking about "out chance" when 9 of our 12 forwards haven't produced a single point...

please?

Well throw it in quotes if you want, because that was part of the question: Does our system "out chance" teams on paper but not really on the ice?

And it speaks to what @forceten is talking about above regarding Hughes, and something I was saying last night as well, he's dangling around the ice and then taking a shot from the side of the net way to close in on the goalie. Might be considered a HD or a SC by the stat keepers, but it didn't look very dangerous to me.

Late in the game he did try to cut into the slot but was picked up by the Det D.

 

[Call Me Al]

Well throw it in quotes if you want, because that was part of the question: Does our system "out chance" teams on paper but not really on the ice?

And it speaks to what @forceten is talking about above regarding Hughes, and something I was saying last night as well, he's dangling around the ice and then taking a shot from the side of the net way to close in on the goalie. Might be considered a HD or a SC by the stat keepers, but it didn't look very dangerous to me.

Late in the game he did try to cut into the slot but was picked up by the Det D.

exactly. i’ll take one larkin shot from the slot and one raymond shot wide open in front instead of 3 hughes in close/bad angle shots, but we win the advanced stats battle there

 

[devilsblood]

the issue is, they got the guy for free but had to offer him a contract. So Fitz gets a low end goalie that he's now on the hook to pay over x years. That's where he got fleeced. Devils owe this guy $10M plus over 3 years. The trap was set and Fitz stepped right into it. He really should've seen that. Again, it's only one game. Vanacek might be worth the risk if you had a #1 already here and asked him to back him up, then you offer maybe 2 years at x dollars. But asking him to carry a big load with this roster is not a good idea.

10mil over 3 years isn't #1 goalie money though. It's fine for what he is.

We needed an upgrade, he is that.

 

[guitarguyvic]

But you look at the Giants and you can see how all these different things, coaching, o-line, wr's, affect the QB.

Go back to David Carr back in the day, and not only did it make it difficult to be successful in the moment, but playing on a terrible team behind a terrible o-line early on in his career completely derailed his development.

We are def being fed a crap stew, but is it the onions, or lentils(I'm vegatarian), or the potatoes? Maybe the flame is too hot and something is burning on the bottom of the pot. Maybe the mushrooms were slimey? Maybe it's a combination of stuff, but it's hard to decipher what is what.

It’s so much easier to believe that the team is one goalie fix away from being respectable than to acknowledge that this is a shit stew that calls into question the quality of the ingredients, chefs, and restaurant ownership.

 

[My3Sons]

9 of your 12 forwards haven't produced a single point..

HF poster: "goaltending!".

Please stop talking about "out chance" when 9 of our 12 forwards haven't produced a single point...

please?

Both can be true. The forwards aren’t scoring and the goalies are struggling. They aren’t mutually exclusive. Better team defense might fix both of the issues but they struggle as a team with that it seems.

 

[Bleedred]

Vanecek being given that deal is why the organization needs to give him a longer leash and be more concerned about him than the lame duck on an expiring contract that has been ''Given the ball to run with'' enough over the last two years.

If we need to evaluate and ''See what we have'' in a player it's Vanecek.

It doesn't mean he should start next game, but it means he shouldn't be shelved for long because of this.

 

[devilsblood]

exactly. i’ll take one larkin shot from the slot and one raymond shot wide open in front instead of 3 hughes in close/bad angle shots, but we win the advanced stats battle there

Or the goal off the Sev's turnover, where's it's bang bang. Or Wood's goal. Actual puck movement.

A guy going one on one and taking a shot in way too tight makes it easy on the goalie.

Now that is certainly not a system thing. More like Hughes trying to do too much, which I won't really criticize him for, I want him to be greedy, but at the same time, they weren't great chances, and not something Ruff is drawing up.

 

[Call Me Al]

Or the goal off the Sev's turnover, where's it's bang bang. Or Wood's goal. Actual puck movement.

A guy going one on one and taking a shot in way too tight makes it easy on the goalie.

Now that is certainly not a system thing. More like Hughes trying to do too much, which I won't really criticize him for, I want him to be greedy, but at the same time, they weren't great chances, and not something Ruff is drawing up.

yeah the structure in d is a problem but offensively it’s a chemistry thing and it’s such a no brainer that it brings my confidence in ruff into question more than anything else honestly - WHY DONT YOU TRY THE LINES THAT YOU USED IN PRESEASON??!

 

[devilsblood]

It’s so much easier to believe that the team is one goalie fix away from being respectable than to acknowledge that this is a shit stew that calls into question the quality of the ingredients, chefs, and restaurant ownership.

Again look at the turnovers last night and it's hard to argue that's merely the goalies.

That said, just look at the goalie ingrediants we threw into the stew the last couple years, no wonder it tasted like poop.

 

[Better Call Sal]

Had to collect my thoughts on last night. I really feel as though there's too many things here at play that singling out one over the other is a fool's errand.

First off, I can never fault any fan for being upset and booing but I really have a strong distaste for the boos in the pregame intros and the fire Lindy chants. Especially in a game like last night where I felt the effort was largely there. I get that effort does not equal production, but this was a game that we very likely should have one. (Yeah, I know, same old story.)

There is something fundamentally wrong with what we do in our own zone when we have the puck. I need to watch it more closely but whether it's indecisiveness from our defenders or lack of support from our forwards, when things go awry it becomes chaos. It tends to lead to these chances occurring. We don't always give up a ton of chances but when we do, they're high danger seemingly every time.

And from there, you'd like it if your goalie could bail you out once or twice. I do believe that wears on a team mentally as well. And I really am sick of those complaining about the GM not trying to fix goaltending when he has attempted to each year since he has been in charge. I still stand by the fact that I haven't seen goaltending this subpar leaguewide in my years of being a fan.

Finally, the lack of production or converting chances on the forwards. I don't believe that this is going to be a problem for long, but it to me is the ultimate reason for this loss at the end of the day. If the team converts on any of these earlier chances, especially in the second period, we likely see a much different outcome. That's just how a game goes. If we go up 3-2, perhaps we have more momentum and you don't see the errors at the end of that period occur. The swing of giving up the go ahead goal, giving away a late PP with a bad penalty by Tatar and then the dagger goal with .8 seconds left was really the nail in the coffin. It sucked the life out of the entire team and building.

Of course I don't believe Lindy is long for this job but I do feel there has to be a point where the players have to hold themselves accountable. I don't agree with everything Lindy does, especially with how he has deployed the lineup in these first two games, but I do think there are things the players need to start recognizing that have been detriments to their potential success in these first two games.

I hope to see the defensive lineup altered next game, and would like to see Bahl get a shot as well. I like that Smith is being a vocal leader and recognizes his role, but he can do that as a scratch. He seems to be weighing Marino down so far.

 

[JimEIV]

Both can be true. The forwards aren’t scoring and the goalies are struggling. They aren’t mutually exclusive. Better team defense might fix both of the issues but they struggle as a team with that it seems.

Both are true... it's a bad team not just bad goalies. This is the truth that is trying to be avoided by talking about just goalies.

 

[Homedresser]

10mil over 3 years isn't #1 goalie money though. It's fine for what he is.

We needed an upgrade, he is that.

It' definitely not #1 money i agree but i really don't believe he's an upgrade. I don't believe he's shown he can be successful with a team like this in front of him. I'm not saying I think Fitz just blindly signed him. I think Fitz believed this roster was stronger than it is and thought that the stronger roster would play better in front of him. There in lies the problem, if Fitz really believed in this roster and it fails miserably then he's done. And to be honest it looks like he whiffed. This is a max cap team with $10M+ sunk cost in the goalie position and that doesn't include Schneider buyout. It has to compete for a playoff spot.

 

[devilsblood]

yeah the structure in d is a problem but offensively it’s a chemistry thing and it’s such a no brainer that it brings my confidence in ruff into question more than anything else honestly - WHY DONT YOU TRY THE LINES THAT YOU USED IN PRESEASON??!

Or, as was talked about after the Flyers game, how is Bratt one of the least used fwd's? And maybe we ask the question regarding Holtz now? Maybe Ruff is hesitant to play the rookie a bunch of minutes, but I'd say he was clearly wrong regarding Bratt in game 1, so he could very well be wrong here too.

Now Ruff talked about it post game, Nico still not being fully healthy threw the line combo's off, (though that is a reoccurring thing too), and one would think this board would love that Ruff is playing Hughes a ton while playing McLeod barely at all.