Speculation: New GM Candidates?

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Paxon

202? Stanley Cup Champions
Jul 13, 2003
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What if Pat's reference included a candidate's experience not as a GM who won Cups but also as a player? Despite his rings as a player, Shanahan's name being tossed around by some media speculation may not make sense because he's had limited managerial experience and none with managing an NHL team - but I read a report that said Joe Nieuwendyk's name was possibly in the mix. Considering that he was a GM for 4 years (with mixed results in Dallas, albeit with unstable ownership) and won Cups with 3 different organizations that all had successful people to learn from (Fletcher in Calgary when he played and in Toronto as an assistant GM; Hitchcock / Gainey in Dallas; Lemaire/Lamoriello in New Jersey) - and, while never a teammate of Pat's, he played at the same time more or less as LaFontaine. He's someone I could see being considered under the collaborative, "there is no emperor" decision-making model that Pat and Pegula spoke about at the initial PC. FWIW, Nieuwendyk is also young enough to be viable choice for next 5+ years yet not as young as someone like Botteril.

Winning Cups as a player is so far from being relevant to being a good general manager. I hope to christ that LaFontaine doesn't go in for this kind of thinking. Nieuwendyk did nothing to show he's a good GM regardless of the situation, so I don't see why he should be considered over candidates who haven't had a chance to show their managerial skills.
 

Beerz

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Jun 28, 2011
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Gretzky in talks with 4 teams. Could Patty try to make a big name splash with the likes of Gretzky?

I'd love him as the figure head ... I just hope they'd surround him with a lot of help behind the scenes lol ..
 

Rhett4

Buffalo Selects Jack
Jul 9, 2002
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Gretzky in talks with 4 teams. Could Patty try to make a big name splash with the likes of Gretzky?

I see Gretzy as being the kind of guy you bring in...to do exactly what Lafontaine is doing. Both are ex-players, good PR moves, and nice figureheads. I don't know that I want other making the day-to-day hockey decisions (at least at this point).
 

Myllz

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I see Gretzy as being the kind of guy you bring in...to do exactly what Lafontaine is doing. Both are ex-players, good PR moves, and nice figureheads. I don't know that I want other making the day-to-day hockey decisions (at least at this point).

Yup. I don't see Gretzky as being a GM. I don't know if that's what he's after or not, but I wouldn't be all that interested in him if that's what he wants. I'd love to have him in the organization in some capacity, though.
 

Moskau

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Jun 30, 2004
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Gretzky is finally getting his $7+ Million from being one of the worst coaches in NHL history and now he's looking for more work? He put it all on New Orleans the other night?
 

Digable5

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Feb 23, 2004
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I see Gretzy as being the kind of guy you bring in...to do exactly what Lafontaine is doing. Both are ex-players, good PR moves, and nice figureheads. I don't know that I want other making the day-to-day hockey decisions (at least at this point).

Let me begin by saying I agree with you. That being said, if you think back to Rivas, bankruptcy, NHL running the team and Golisano owning the team on a budget, would you ever have imagined the Sabres being owned by someone willing to lose money to support the organization and invest in the city? Now throw in the fact that Pat Lafontaine is the VP of hockey operations. If Gretzky was to sign on to be GM, players and others in the NHL(and outside the NHL) will be forced to take notice. Changing the perception of Buffalo and Sabres organization could be just as valuable as anything.

Besides, the Sabres could pick a more experienced person for the job and not get any better results. Convincing "The Great One" to accept the position would be a big win for the organization if you ask me.
 

Beerz

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Let me begin by saying I agree with you. That being said, if you think back to Rivas, bankruptcy, NHL running the team and Golisano owning the team on a budget, would you ever have imagined the Sabres being owned by someone willing to lose money to support the organization and invest in the city? Now throw in the fact that Pat Lafontaine is the VP of hockey operations. If Gretzky was to sign on to be GM, players and others in the NHL(and outside the NHL) will be forced to take notice. Changing the perception of Buffalo and Sabres organization could be just as valuable as anything.

Besides, the Sabres could pick a more experienced person for the job and not get any better results. Convincing "The Great One" to accept the position would be a big win for the organization if you ask me.

Right. Just surround him with talent.
 

Myllz

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Let me begin by saying I agree with you. That being said, if you think back to Rivas, bankruptcy, NHL running the team and Golisano owning the team on a budget, would you ever have imagined the Sabres being owned by someone willing to lose money to support the organization and invest in the city? Now throw in the fact that Pat Lafontaine is the VP of hockey operations. If Gretzky was to sign on to be GM, players and others in the NHL(and outside the NHL) will be forced to take notice. Changing the perception of Buffalo and Sabres organization could be just as valuable as anything.

Besides, the Sabres could pick a more experienced person for the job and not get any better results. Convincing "The Great One" to accept the position would be a big win for the organization if you ask me.

Hiring people in order to change the way your organization is viewed is one thing. Hiring people for positions they're not qualified to do in order to accomplish that is another. Like I said, I'd be all for having Gretzky in the organization in some capacity, but not as GM.
 

Paxon

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Why would anyone want a GM that you have to surround with competent people to hold his hand? How about getting an actual capable GM. We already have a figurehead former player in Pat LaFontaine. That's why we need a capable GM at his side.

What has Wayne Gretzky done off the ice to make anyone think he's qualified to be a general manager in the NHL?
 

Beerz

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Jun 28, 2011
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Why would anyone want a GM that you have to surround with competent people to hold his hand? How about getting an actual capable GM. We already have a figurehead former player in Pat LaFontaine. That's why we need a capable GM at his side.

What has Wayne Gretzky done off the ice to make anyone think he's qualified to be a general manager in the NHL?

Nothing.
 

Moskau

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Gretzky has said many times he doesn't watch much Hockey outside of a few Rangers and Oilers games. He's fairly far removed from the game. Even when he was coaching it was just for the money. And let's be honest the man was a genius on the ice but off the ice he's a little... slow.
 

Digable5

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Feb 23, 2004
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Hiring people in order to change the way your organization is viewed is one thing. Hiring people for positions they're not qualified to do in order to accomplish that is another. Like I said, I'd be all for having Gretzky in the organization in some capacity, but not as GM.

To be clear, I am not disagreeing with your point. And I don't want it to appear that I think the GM position could be done by a monkey, but you could hire the most experienced, respected and successful GM in league history and they could come in and make matters worse( if that's possible). You could just as easily hire me with no experience aside from video game GMing and I could learn/luck my way into building a championship team.

Gretzky knows hockey. He knows what it takes to win even if it's from a player's perspective. If the Sabres stay true to their team decision making and provide Wayne with some of the best minds available he could be just as successful as any available candidate and has numerous intangible benefits that no other option could bring that may give us the leg up on acquisitions in the future we wouldn't have without him.
 

Paxon

202? Stanley Cup Champions
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To be clear, I am not disagreeing with your point. And I don't want it to appear that I think the GM position could be done by a monkey, but you could hire the most experienced, respected and successful GM in league history and they could come in and make matters worse( if that's possible). You could just as easily hire me with no experience aside from video game GMing and I could learn/luck my way into building a championship team.

This is like saying "You could put your best line out there and be dominated and you could put your 4th line out there and dominate". Well no kidding, anything's possible, but sound decisions are about improving the odds of success. Hiring a good GM is better than hiring a bad GM. If anyone disagrees with that then I don't know what to say.

Gretzky knows hockey. He knows what it takes to win even if it's from a player's perspective. If the Sabres stay true to their team decision making and provide Wayne with some of the best minds available he could be just as successful as any available candidate and has numerous intangible benefits that no other option could bring that may give us the leg up on acquisitions in the future we wouldn't have without him.

They all know what it takes to win, they've played the game their whole lives. Gretzky being more talented than everyone else doesn't mean he knows more than some guy who played in the NHL on 4th lines for 6 years. Most successful coaches and GM's were decent players, role players, or fringe players, so there's certainly no edge being a great player gives you with respect to these jobs.
 

Digable5

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This is like saying "You could put your best line out there and be dominated and you could put your 4th line out there and dominate". Well no kidding, anything's possible, but sound decisions are about improving the odds of success. Hiring a good GM is better than hiring a bad GM. If anyone disagrees with that then I don't know what to say.

They all know what it takes to win, they've played the game their whole lives. Gretzky being more talented than everyone else doesn't mean he knows more than some guy who played in the NHL on 4th lines for 6 years. Most successful coaches and GM's were decent players, role players, or fringe players, so there's certainly no edge being a great player gives you with respect to these jobs.

What I'm saying is that experience doesn't equal guaranteed success. Just because Gretzky failed as a coach doesn't mean he would fail as a GM. Just because he hasn't done the job before doesn't mean he couldn't be great at it. From personal experience I have taken many positions and responsibilities in my career I had no experience with and had immediate success. Obviously hiring a good GM is better than hiring a bad GM. Why can't Gretzky be a better GM than a current AGM? In the case of Devine, he has done a great job with drafting and amateur scouting. How does that prove he would be a good GM? Especially if you take what he was so good at and give it to someone else and ask him to make trades and signings he was never responsible for.

All I am saying is that hiring an AGM or fired GM is no more likely to be successful than a retired player. You don't necessarily hire someone, even Gretzky, just for his name, but if Patty trusts him to be a good GM, I would be willing to take the gamble for the reasons stated.
 

Myllz

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What I'm saying is that experience doesn't equal guaranteed success. Just because Gretzky failed as a coach doesn't mean he would fail as a GM. Just because he hasn't done the job before doesn't mean he couldn't be great at it. From personal experience I have taken many positions and responsibilities in my career I had no experience with and had immediate success. Obviously hiring a good GM is better than hiring a bad GM. Why can't Gretzky be a better GM than a current AGM? In the case of Devine, he has done a great job with drafting and amateur scouting. How does that prove he would be a good GM? Especially if you take what he was so good at and give it to someone else and ask him to make trades and signings he was never responsible for.

All I am saying is that hiring an AGM or fired GM is no more likely to be successful than a retired player. You don't necessarily hire someone, even Gretzky, just for his name, but if Patty trusts him to be a good GM, I would be willing to take the gamble for the reasons stated.

It's not a matter of him not having any experience as a GM, it's a matter of him not having any experience doing anything CLOSE to being a GM. Yes, he's the greatest player of all time and knows the game very well, but that doesn't mean anything about his ability to construct a team, see talent in other players, negotiate with agents and other GM's, etc.

As for your point about hiring an AGM versus hiring Gretzky and their likelihood for success...it absolutely does matter. Experience isn't the end-all, be-all factor, but it's still a big one. Someone who's been in the position before knows what to expect and how to deal with it. Could we get lucky and Gretzky turns out to be amazing? Yes. The chances of him falling flat on his face and being horrible at the position are way, way higher, though.
 

Paxon

202? Stanley Cup Champions
Jul 13, 2003
29,031
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Rochester, NY
What I'm saying is that experience doesn't equal guaranteed success. Just because Gretzky failed as a coach doesn't mean he would fail as a GM. Just because he hasn't done the job before doesn't mean he couldn't be great at it. From personal experience I have taken many positions and responsibilities in my career I had no experience with and had immediate success. Obviously hiring a good GM is better than hiring a bad GM. Why can't Gretzky be a better GM than a current AGM? In the case of Devine, he has done a great job with drafting and amateur scouting. How does that prove he would be a good GM? Especially if you take what he was so good at and give it to someone else and ask him to make trades and signings he was never responsible for.

All I am saying is that hiring an AGM or fired GM is no more likely to be successful than a retired player. You don't necessarily hire someone, even Gretzky, just for his name, but if Patty trusts him to be a good GM, I would be willing to take the gamble for the reasons stated.

Who is talking about guaranteed success or failure? There's no guarantee that I wouldn't be a great GM but I don't see you talking about hiring me. Devine would obviously be a more reasonable hire than Gretzky because he has actually proven he can work in an NHL front office and has proven his ability to handle various front office tasks like scouting and drafting, which he has done a good job with.

Wayne Gretzky failing as a coach doesn't "prove" he would be a bad GM, it just doesn't say much for his supposed brilliant mind as it pertains to not being a player. There is literally nothing positive to say about Gretzky as a potential GM. Name one thing that indicates he might succeed? The only thing anyone can say is that he was a great player. When has Gretzky even said anything insightful about hockey? Have you heard the guy's interviews? His future in hockey is being a completely bland 'ambassador'.

As to your last point, it's just so clearly wrong. There's no guarantee someone with front office experience would do a better job than someone with no experience. It is, however, in fact far more likely that someone who actually understands how to work in an NHL front office would have success than someone who has no experience. Far more likely.
 

Paxon

202? Stanley Cup Champions
Jul 13, 2003
29,031
5,265
Rochester, NY
If the Sabres want someone with the impact of Gretzky who's actually qualified, they should put the full court press on Bobby Orr.

It's funny, I was thinking earlier about true legendary players who have gone on to have actual success in their sport after their playing career. Bobby Orr was the only one who came to mind really, even including other sports. He's been one of the more respected agents in the business for a while now. Not saying I want to hire Bobby Or as the GM, because I don't, but I'd prefer him to Gretzky. Of course, I also think there's not really any chance he'd want to lose his agency to take another job.
 

Digable5

Buffalo Proton (Positively Charged)
Feb 23, 2004
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Who is talking about guaranteed success or failure? There's no guarantee that I wouldn't be a great GM but I don't see you talking about hiring me. Devine would obviously be a more reasonable hire than Gretzky because he has actually proven he can work in an NHL front office and has proven his ability to handle various front office tasks like scouting and drafting, which he has done a good job with.

Wayne Gretzky failing as a coach doesn't "prove" he would be a bad GM, it just doesn't say much for his supposed brilliant mind as it pertains to not being a player. There is literally nothing positive to say about Gretzky as a potential GM. Name one thing that indicates he might succeed? The only thing anyone can say is that he was a great player. When has Gretzky even said anything insightful about hockey? Have you heard the guy's interviews? His future in hockey is being a completely bland 'ambassador'.

As to your last point, it's just so clearly wrong. There's no guarantee someone with front office experience would do a better job than someone with no experience. It is, however, in fact far more likely that someone who actually understands how to work in an NHL front office would have success than someone who has no experience. Far more likely.
There are only two possible outcomes to the new hire, success and failure. You can feel more comfortable with the hire because you've seen him perform aspects of the job in other roles but the odds of him succeeding are not any greater. SO it is not FAR more likely or even more likely at all.

You say there is "nothing positive to say about Gretzky as a potential GM" and I disagree. Not only has he been part owner of a franchise he was also the Executive Director of the Canadian National Team that won Gold. Not to mention the positive impact of his presence of potential free agents and the improved perception of Buffalo and the Sabres by his hiring that I have already expressed.

Besides failing as a coach that is irrelevant and not having been a GM before (which most candidates have not) what is there to say negative about him?

I am perfectly fine with them hiring an AGM and think we MAY be better off with them making the day-to-day decisions for the club, but I also say maybe not. And they can't offer any intangible benefits to the likes of Gretzky. If Darcy signs Parise and Suter, as he apparently tried to, he probably looks like a genius and we are contending right now with him as GM instead of looking for a new one to run our rebuild. If you hire Botterill As an example, no top free agents are going to consider us unless we overpay or luck into McDavid or another prospect emerges to an elite level and we are cup contenders again. Even then the perception about Buffalo is negative enough to push people away. I truly believe Gretzky gives us a leg up in this area and will make people consider coming here you will Never have with Botterill, Fenton, etc... If the Sabres draft no. 1 or 2 in the next two drafts that will have more to do with the teams turnaround then who they hire as GM. Is Shero a great GM because he has Crosby and Malkin?

In Crosby's draft the Sabres had the same odds as Pittsburgh in getting No. 1 overall. If Pittsburgh and Buffalo switch positions, I bet Pittsburgh doesn't have as much success picking from Zagrapan, Pokoluk, O'Marra, and Bourrett. After Malkin were Barker, Ladd, Wheeler, Montoya, and Olesz.

Maybe a monkey couldn't do it, but any human with a functioning brain and a pulse can be advised to select Reinhardt and McDavid and look like a genius. There will be depth and team building moves and picks to be done but signing or drafting elite players is usually the keys to success in the NHL these days. Devine can handle the draft and Gretzky improves our chances with the free agents More than Botterill and the like.
 
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