Player Discussion Neal Pionk
- Thread starter nevesis
- Start date
- Status
Machinehead
Fox Mafia Consigliere
That tells me it's coachable. He's not terrible at zone exits because he can't pass at an NHL level like Staal or Girardi. It's because he doesn't know what he's doing.
Granted, he hasn't even has a full season of pro hockey, let alone the NHL, so he obviously has potential, but the hype is out of control.
Unpredictable1
Registered User
So far I like what I see in Neal's small sample size. From what I can tell there's a good base to work with, we'll see how he does once more games start piling on the odometer with the potential to play a full season.
Rongomania
I use my Kakko jersey as pajamas now.
I like him and he - don’t shoot me - reminds me kind of how McD, Sauer, Skjei, etc. came on strong as rooks. Love seeing that, especially when it’s such a position of need.
Amazing Kreiderman
Registered User
- Apr 11, 2011
- 45,075
- 40,935
Rempe73
RIP King of Pop
Yupp. I knew something about his game bugged me a bit, and I'm one of his biggest fans. It's indeed sad, considering he has shown to be an effective two-way guy. I knew everything seemed too good to be true. Kind of explains his bad corsi numbers. But, I feel like this problem is fixable for 3 reasons.
1. As someone pointed out, it doesn't seem to be a skill problem where he can't pass the puck. He can, but just needs to be coached. His breakout passes are solid for the most part, giving me reason to hope.
2. There are 5 skaters on a team, and he is not going to be the only one who has to move or exit the puck out of the d-zone every time. If he plays good D, and someone else gets the puck and exits the zone, it's all good.
3. Marc Staal is part of the problem. If Pionk was playing with a solid 2-way D-man who could move and exit the puck out of the zone (like McDonagh I guess, but that won't happen anymore), I feel like he'd be fine. While Pionk works on improving his zone exits, he should be paired with someone who is already good at them. And not someone who is a complete offensive D-man, either. Is Skjei good at zone exits? Skjei-Pionk?
darko
Registered User
- Feb 16, 2009
- 70,272
- 7,803
The Mouth
Blueshirt Underground on You Tube
- May 20, 2009
- 1,196
- 177
He had a really good game until he screwed the pooch on the Lars Eller goal. I was embarrassed for the kid watching him doing the flopsy mopsy on the ice trying to play the pass instead of just staying on his feet. But other than that utter embarrassment of a play. He looked really good.
I love Pionk's game and thought he was fantastic last night.
I don't have a big issue with zone exists, transition play is a team thing. If you look at our team and where we are really short right now, its those toughest minutes against the best the Metro has to offer. We have traded away our top guys, and the Metro/East have a ton of extremely strong players to throw at you. Neal Pionk plays those minutes with Marc Staal, while I love Pionk and think Staal actually is playing pretty solid hockey right now -- its not optimal. And so often their forwards are also pushed back and when we are turning the play we got 1-2 forwards putting a stick on the ice heading up the ice in a hurry looking for a stretch pass to tip into the attacking zone while the other guys are changing.
I also think there is every reason to expect that to also spill over into other type of plays. If you are forced to scramble to hold down the fort and plays with the knife on your throat all day, and most of the time when you move the puck its with the sole purpose to get it out to survive and get to the bench for a shift -- it just easily spills over to the fewer situations were you had time to make a better play.
Don't think this is a big issue at all. For those scrambling to find reasons for CF% -- like, AV have been here FIVE years. He is very consistent in giving the toughest shifts to one D pair. And its the shifts that are tough in all kind of ways. Against the toughest opponents, we also focus a lot on shutting things down while constantly being a threat the other way to unsettle them. During these FIVE years, a heck of a long time, the result have -- always -- been that the D pair that gets those minutes also get bad CF%. One of few eceptions was that Nash-Step-Miller-McD-Klein unit that managed to push back their opponents.
The problem is that someone read on twitter that usage does not matter for CF%. This is a tremendously usable "fact" for some because it means that you can scout players only looking at stats and don't have to worry about how they are used, its "irrelevant". And looking at the actual numbers, where you start the play has a big impact but its not at the same time tremendously big. It doesn't explain someone having a CF% of 39% as opposed to 59%. BUT -- that is looking at the league as a whole in general, every shift in every game weighted the same. Relevant information to give you a good context for sure. BUT Of COURSE it matters a heck of a lot if you play the minutes Pionk plays or Gilmour plays right now lol. It mattered when Girardi played and Clendenning played. And so forth and so forth and so forth.
AV have been here five years, is the above really even up for debate -- I just think its so tremendously obvious. I know that many have been gone great lengths over the years stating that usage has a very small impact and that like if a Girardi has poor CF% its only because he is the worst ever etc, nobody has ever disputing that Girardi moves the puck crappy and it hurts his unit but there exists conditions in this universe were its good if you can take into account both sides of the coin...
I don't have a big issue with zone exists, transition play is a team thing. If you look at our team and where we are really short right now, its those toughest minutes against the best the Metro has to offer. We have traded away our top guys, and the Metro/East have a ton of extremely strong players to throw at you. Neal Pionk plays those minutes with Marc Staal, while I love Pionk and think Staal actually is playing pretty solid hockey right now -- its not optimal. And so often their forwards are also pushed back and when we are turning the play we got 1-2 forwards putting a stick on the ice heading up the ice in a hurry looking for a stretch pass to tip into the attacking zone while the other guys are changing.
I also think there is every reason to expect that to also spill over into other type of plays. If you are forced to scramble to hold down the fort and plays with the knife on your throat all day, and most of the time when you move the puck its with the sole purpose to get it out to survive and get to the bench for a shift -- it just easily spills over to the fewer situations were you had time to make a better play.
Don't think this is a big issue at all. For those scrambling to find reasons for CF% -- like, AV have been here FIVE years. He is very consistent in giving the toughest shifts to one D pair. And its the shifts that are tough in all kind of ways. Against the toughest opponents, we also focus a lot on shutting things down while constantly being a threat the other way to unsettle them. During these FIVE years, a heck of a long time, the result have -- always -- been that the D pair that gets those minutes also get bad CF%. One of few eceptions was that Nash-Step-Miller-McD-Klein unit that managed to push back their opponents.
The problem is that someone read on twitter that usage does not matter for CF%. This is a tremendously usable "fact" for some because it means that you can scout players only looking at stats and don't have to worry about how they are used, its "irrelevant". And looking at the actual numbers, where you start the play has a big impact but its not at the same time tremendously big. It doesn't explain someone having a CF% of 39% as opposed to 59%. BUT -- that is looking at the league as a whole in general, every shift in every game weighted the same. Relevant information to give you a good context for sure. BUT Of COURSE it matters a heck of a lot if you play the minutes Pionk plays or Gilmour plays right now lol. It mattered when Girardi played and Clendenning played. And so forth and so forth and so forth.
AV have been here five years, is the above really even up for debate -- I just think its so tremendously obvious. I know that many have been gone great lengths over the years stating that usage has a very small impact and that like if a Girardi has poor CF% its only because he is the worst ever etc, nobody has ever disputing that Girardi moves the puck crappy and it hurts his unit but there exists conditions in this universe were its good if you can take into account both sides of the coin...
eco's bones
Registered User
These are the ice times from last night:
Pionk 26:19
Skjei 24:00
Staal 22:22
O'Gara 16:15
Sproul 12:34
Gilmour 10:26
I think it's safe to say that the rookie pro Pionk saw a healthy amount of the Caps best players last night. AV has been relying on him pretty much like he relied on McDonagh. I think it's also safe to say that Pionk is in no way--at least not yet---a legit No. 1 or 1st pairing defenseman---he may never be a legit 1st pairing defenseman but right at the beginning of his career when most defensemen new to the league are put in managed situations he's being asked to be one---to play against the league's best players and very often in games that are of real consequence for the team's we're facing (whether to make the playoffs or for playoff positioning). Under the circumstances he's performed admirably. McDonagh was brought up midway through his rookie pro season too but he wasn't thrown into the deep end like is happening now with Pionk. Just saying......and expecting Neal to play a mistake free 26+ minutes against one of the top teams in the league trying to keep a grasp on the top spot in the division is expecting a little too much. He seriously f***ed up on the Eller goal. I'm not even sure what he was trying to do but it doesn't negate the fact that otherwise he was f***ing awesome last night.
- Aug 5, 2010
- 13,892
- 9,521
Thank you, @eco's bones. Just want to applaud Pionk’s maturity and confidence he’s displaying while handling 1D assignments. Anyone reasonable around here would say this is not an ideal method to bring up rookie D who’s got not even a full season of pro experience of any kind.
I’m extremely impressed.
I’m extremely impressed.
aufheben
#Norris4Fox
Yeah seems like his default play is to just throw the puck up the boards.
That tells me it's coachable. He's not terrible at zone exits because he can't pass at an NHL level like Staal or Girardi. It's because he doesn't know what he's doing.
Granted, he hasn't even has a full season of pro hockey, let alone the NHL, so he obviously has potential, but the hype is out of control.
East Coast Bias
Registered User
They probably have him watching tapes of Girardi.
Nealzy, throw it up the boards!
Nealzy, throw it up the boards!
I still don't think there's any "hype" that's over the top here.
We have a rookie defenseman in his first pro season. He played well in camp, and played well on a bad Hartford team. He also came in with some noise surrounding him as a potential really good signing.
Now, he's playing very well getting big minutes (26+ last night!) on a team that was defensively inept with actual NHL players, that now fields guys like O'Gara and Gilmour. He's scoring points, hes not playing terrible defensively despite drawing really tough match ups--as it appears to me anyway--and he generally looks like he belongs. He's not in over his head.
And, to boot, he's now up to 71 games played on the year which is already way more than the 54 he played one year in the USHL--which is obviously less physically demanding that the AHL and NHL, and 29 more than he played in college last year. At this point I'd expect him to be struggling, to look like he's out of gas, to be making terrible decisions and certainly not be playing 26+ minutes like it's nothing.
He's a future 3/4 defenseman. I don't think that over-hyping him; I think that's just looking at the facts and making a reasonable projection.
We have a rookie defenseman in his first pro season. He played well in camp, and played well on a bad Hartford team. He also came in with some noise surrounding him as a potential really good signing.
Now, he's playing very well getting big minutes (26+ last night!) on a team that was defensively inept with actual NHL players, that now fields guys like O'Gara and Gilmour. He's scoring points, hes not playing terrible defensively despite drawing really tough match ups--as it appears to me anyway--and he generally looks like he belongs. He's not in over his head.
And, to boot, he's now up to 71 games played on the year which is already way more than the 54 he played one year in the USHL--which is obviously less physically demanding that the AHL and NHL, and 29 more than he played in college last year. At this point I'd expect him to be struggling, to look like he's out of gas, to be making terrible decisions and certainly not be playing 26+ minutes like it's nothing.
He's a future 3/4 defenseman. I don't think that over-hyping him; I think that's just looking at the facts and making a reasonable projection.
Last edited:
Brooklyn Rangers Fan
Change is good.
Yeaaaah... I know most of you watch the games, but the zone exits point really does seem like a stat surfing complaint.
His game wasn't perfect last night (yeesh, what were you doing on the Eller goal, Neal?), but he was on the ice for a lot of shifts where the Caps were besieging the offensive zone and he wasn't getting a whole hell of a lot of help from his D partner. There were many incidents where he just had to get the puck out of dodge. Could he have, in some isolated instances, controlled the puck and started a more effective transition? Sure. But the vast majority of them, the team just needed to get the puck out of danger and get a change, and he was doing exactly what his coach would want him (especially as a rookie) to do.
His game wasn't perfect last night (yeesh, what were you doing on the Eller goal, Neal?), but he was on the ice for a lot of shifts where the Caps were besieging the offensive zone and he wasn't getting a whole hell of a lot of help from his D partner. There were many incidents where he just had to get the puck out of dodge. Could he have, in some isolated instances, controlled the puck and started a more effective transition? Sure. But the vast majority of them, the team just needed to get the puck out of danger and get a change, and he was doing exactly what his coach would want him (especially as a rookie) to do.
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
And why would that be a bad thing? 31 points his best season, 28 one season, 29 another. I think thats actually more in line with what to expect from Pionk point wise than what we've seen so far. If Pionk can be prime Girardi, this team will be in business. That would be a first pair defenseman, and maybe a few seasons as a 1D. But I don't expect that, I think Pionk is a safe bet to be a top 4D, and maybe can maximize as deputizing on a first pair for a few years.
What I've liked most from Pionk so far is his defense. He looks to really understand how to defend at the NHL level like 20 games into his NHL career. He's by far the best defensively of all the young defensemen we've called up the last few months. He can also skate, pass the puck and put up some points, but he's a smart player who defends first. I don't think SSS corsi stats itself writes a player off. If it doesn't match the eye test, it might even be fair to write it off. Namestnikov has a good corsi recently, and he's been awful, so I think what matters more here is the defense, and the offensive plays he's attempting. He actually looks pretty good against these elite players. He's playing like a player who might be a good NHL'er than just an NHL'er.
What I've liked most from Pionk so far is his defense. He looks to really understand how to defend at the NHL level like 20 games into his NHL career. He's by far the best defensively of all the young defensemen we've called up the last few months. He can also skate, pass the puck and put up some points, but he's a smart player who defends first. I don't think SSS corsi stats itself writes a player off. If it doesn't match the eye test, it might even be fair to write it off. Namestnikov has a good corsi recently, and he's been awful, so I think what matters more here is the defense, and the offensive plays he's attempting. He actually looks pretty good against these elite players. He's playing like a player who might be a good NHL'er than just an NHL'er.
Machinehead
Fox Mafia Consigliere
Oh boy howdy Prime Girardi.
2.5 goals against every 60 even strength minutes.
2.5 goals against every 60 even strength minutes.
This is a really good point and I want to talk about it a little more. Over the past few years, including this year, and including now, one of the biggest problems our defensemen have faced is getting the puck out of the zone. We've been so lost in our coverages and so shitty and winning back the puck or retrieving it from corners, we face these long periods of highly sustained pressure. And then, someone gets the puck on their stick (McDonagh did this a lot and it drove me crazy), tries to make some sort of breakout pass or controlled clear--that's our system!--and they'd flub the clear because they're f***ing gassed and waited too long or just aren't good at clearing the puck to begin with. And then we get scored on. Really, how many times did we give up goals after our guys did some dumbass shit and failed to clear?
So if Pionk wants to bank that shit off the glass right now just to get it out, I am more than okay with that--I'm happy with that. It would be awesome if there was always someone there to receive a pass out of the zone, but when you're pinned for 30, 45, 60 seconds of pressure, there is literally nothing wrong with just getting it clear. If our defensive philosophy wasn't f***ing chaotic gangbangs, maybe he'd be doing something else. For now, it's good.
Rempe73
RIP King of Pop
Appreciate the info! And yea I saw that play on the highlights. Not good, but I guess he was trying to block the pass to the guy on the far side?
Last edited:
@nyr2k2 well put. bad corsi and poor zone exits are par the course. Pionk and Gilmour, even Staal and O'Garra, have proven to be capable of skating it out without much trouble, or joining the rush and supporting the puck up ice very well—Pionk especially. but as ola pointed out too, there is most often no other option than the stretch pass. no puck support through the d-zone, no play to make other than throw it into the neutral zone. Pionk's made enough successful two line passes for me not to doubt he could make a five-footer if his team ever wanted to. he actually did a few times last night...
And on the Eller goal—he was obviously isolating Ovechkin. It wasn't the right play since Eller was the most dangerous player, but that's a rookie being asked to be a #1 D on the ice against the best goal scorer probably of all time... I don't really blame him, especially since the play shouldn't have happened with the blown too many men call.
And on the Eller goal—he was obviously isolating Ovechkin. It wasn't the right play since Eller was the most dangerous player, but that's a rookie being asked to be a #1 D on the ice against the best goal scorer probably of all time... I don't really blame him, especially since the play shouldn't have happened with the blown too many men call.
Ail
Based and Rangerspilled.
Yes, if you have no better option, clearing the zone with bank off the boards is better than a turnover inside the blueline. However a clear off the boards to the neutral zone that is taken by the opposing team is still a turnover and now the puck is coming back across the blueline as soon as the other team is back onside.
Defensemen have to find way to skate the puck out or make a clean breakout pass to someone who can. Just clearing the zone should always be the absolute last resort.
Defensemen have to find way to skate the puck out or make a clean breakout pass to someone who can. Just clearing the zone should always be the absolute last resort.
Lays
Registered User
- Jan 22, 2017
- 13,558
- 12,637
I think some people try too hard to put him down here. Agreed with @eco's bones comment, he’s playing top minutes of course there’s going to be some bad plays from a young dman who was called up not too long ago, he’ll learn from his mistakes. He’s really good offensively and defensively he’s shown potential, he needs to get a bit bigger and stronger though he gets outmuscled a lot. I’m thrilled with his play so far
Machinehead
Fox Mafia Consigliere
Fitzy
Very Stable Genius
- Jan 29, 2009
- 36,418
- 24,276
Any hype comes purely from the fact that hes an undrafted free agent signing, so a free asset. If he turns into anything at all its in excess of expectations.
I think Pionk really tried to stretch his wings a bit last night and sometimes it worked and sometimes it burned him. A couple of times he thought he won puck battles and tried to turn the other way only to have it taken back away from him, he's gotta be better about that. On the other hand he showed off some great skating ability and some creativity as well, more than he's shown up to this point.
And yeah he really blew it on that Eller goal, he'll probably be the first to tell you he screwed that up.
I think he's also being overplayed for his ability right now and that's gonna make him look bad on defense at times. He's not a 26 minute per night defenseman right now, if he'll ever be (probably not).
Also also, I really think a new system would help a lot of these defensemen out, I feel like so many times they try to wrap it around the boards or chip it up the boards with the expectation they'll get forward support there, but the forwards are all busy chasing around other players and not on the boards. Just something about it makes it difficult for defensemen to have that default outlet when they need it.
And yeah he really blew it on that Eller goal, he'll probably be the first to tell you he screwed that up.
I think he's also being overplayed for his ability right now and that's gonna make him look bad on defense at times. He's not a 26 minute per night defenseman right now, if he'll ever be (probably not).
Also also, I really think a new system would help a lot of these defensemen out, I feel like so many times they try to wrap it around the boards or chip it up the boards with the expectation they'll get forward support there, but the forwards are all busy chasing around other players and not on the boards. Just something about it makes it difficult for defensemen to have that default outlet when they need it.
- Status
Ad
Upcoming events
-
Props Alex Ovechkin to Record 895th Career Goal During 2024/25 Regular SeasonWagers: 12Staked: $21,883.00Event closes - 2 days from now- Updated: