mk80
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- Jul 30, 2012
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NCAA Hockey Expansion Thread
- Thread starter S E P H
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CrazyEddie20
Registered User
First of all, regarding LIU: Under no circumstances should an NCAA Division I team lose to a club team. None. Never. That they don't have a conference, don't have a campus rink, play in a rec rink, and couldn't draw fans on Long Island, one of the best youth hockey areas in the country, is telling about how successful that program is going to be in the short term.
Barclay is correct - places that put in the resources will be successful. I have two graduate degrees, one from a well known eastern school that doesn't play hockey and one from an SEC school. Either of those schools could be successful in Division I hockey, but the money, resources, and facilities need to be there.
In the past 29 years, 18 schools have elevated a lower division NCAA program to Division I or started a Division program - they're 1/3 of the existing programs. One of them has won a National Championship: UMass-Amherst this past season. They've combined for 46 NCAA berths (out of 432 possible spots). Two of those schools (UAH, Bobby Mo) have dropped hockey. Several of the others could be in trouble - especially Canisius and Niagara (already dropped women's hockey).
And even schools with resources and facilities aren't necessarily competitive - just look at UConn, Union for its first 15 years in Division I, and UMass-Amherst before Greg Carvel showed up.
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JMCx4
#91 and counting ...
Might be coincidence, but I saw Zombo leaving the LU Lions' training facilities on Tuesday afternoon & he looked like he had a distinct Division 1 mullet going on. Just sayin'.
CrazyEddie20
Registered User
Maryland Heights faces mounting financial woes at Blues practice facility
Sounds like not all is well with everyone's favorite not-yet-official Division I program's home arena.
"The city is on the hook for more than $55 million in bonds toward construction of the $83 million Centene Community Ice Center, where the St. Louis Blues practice. But revenues at the center have tanked in the past year, forcing the city to pony up when sales and taxes from the rink failed to cover bond payments.
And in June, Arco Construction Co. filed a lien on the 275,000-square-foot, four-rink center, then sued St. Louis Legacy Ice Foundation, the rink’s nonprofit operator. Subcontractors are still filing claims, according to St. Louis County Circuit Court documents.
The lien stems from seven change orders that Arco alleges Legacy and the project developer, Clayton-based Summit Development Group, have not fully paid for.
Legacy Chairman Patrick Quinn said Arco and Legacy are negotiating payment.
Maryland Heights City Administrator Tracey Anderson and Mayor Mike Moeller did not respond to requests for comment."
Sounds like not all is well with everyone's favorite not-yet-official Division I program's home arena.
"The city is on the hook for more than $55 million in bonds toward construction of the $83 million Centene Community Ice Center, where the St. Louis Blues practice. But revenues at the center have tanked in the past year, forcing the city to pony up when sales and taxes from the rink failed to cover bond payments.
And in June, Arco Construction Co. filed a lien on the 275,000-square-foot, four-rink center, then sued St. Louis Legacy Ice Foundation, the rink’s nonprofit operator. Subcontractors are still filing claims, according to St. Louis County Circuit Court documents.
The lien stems from seven change orders that Arco alleges Legacy and the project developer, Clayton-based Summit Development Group, have not fully paid for.
Legacy Chairman Patrick Quinn said Arco and Legacy are negotiating payment.
Maryland Heights City Administrator Tracey Anderson and Mayor Mike Moeller did not respond to requests for comment."
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JMCx4
#91 and counting ...
That was a very slow news day for the Post Disgrace. I will admit that CCIC is not the smoothest running operation, but they have been hosting a lot of hockey & musical events this year after the county's COVID restrictions were relaxed. So as a taxpayer supporting the facility ops, I am cautiously optimistic that they will recover. Some day.
But what has all this got to do with Lindenwood hockey? Two separate issues. Their home ice is still there & unlikely to disappear.
CrazyEddie20
Registered User
Lindenwood plays there, don't they? Financial instability related to the rink and it's managers is certainly relevant.
And not likely to disappear? The city's debt has been downgraded twice. They're now into the portion of the lease where they pay $175K annually in debt service and have had to draw $1.3 million in funds from the city's reserve in the past two years. Taxpayers aren't going to abide throwing money down a black hole like that forever, especially when it results in tax hikes due to the cost of borrowing money going up because the city fathers threw good money after bad to build an ice rink that wasn't needed and barely wanted. When that time comes, and it may well be coming, the city will have to unload the rink, and what then?
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JMCx4
#91 and counting ...
Your characterization of "an ice rink that wasn't needed and barely wanted" is a long way from the truth. You've apparently mistaken environmental protesters for hockey fans & parents. As for the future financial viability of the complex, the city has a wildcard: They receive sizeable amounts of tax dollars every year from the adjacent casino. So I ain't gonna be worried until people stop gambling.
CrazyEddie20
Registered User
Have you ever heard of a casino that provided the projected tax revenue? I'll wait.
JMCx4
#91 and counting ...
Bottom Line: I'd say you're too far from this particular situation, while I'm too close, for either of us to be completely objective. But I'll venture to add that the topic of this thread is not primarily affected by this civic matter.
CrazyEddie20
Registered User
Illinois hockey remains 'on hold' in pandemic's wake | The Rink Live
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“We finished the fiscal year with a deficit and the uncertainty surrounding the Delta variant has caused us to continue to pause on this endeavor,” Hood said. “Hopefully we will have some clarity later this year.”
A key to the notion that Illinois could and would add hockey and generate revenue from the program was the construction of a 5,000-seat arena in downtown Champaign, Ill., that would be within walking distance of the campus and would serve as the home rink for the Illini and the home court for their volleyball program. That project remains on hold as well. But the school is not giving up on the idea of a D-I hockey program, and is committed to at least exploring the idea some more.
In a June interview with Scott Richey of the News-Gazette in Champaign, Illinois athletic director Josh Whitman said the project remains alive for discussion.
“We were very, very close to green lighting hockey,” Whitman told the News-Gazette. “There’s no question about that. Because of how close we were, I feel obligated to restart the conversations and reassess and see where are we at this point.”
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From that, it doesn't sound like this will be the year that Illinois starts a real college hockey program either.
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“We finished the fiscal year with a deficit and the uncertainty surrounding the Delta variant has caused us to continue to pause on this endeavor,” Hood said. “Hopefully we will have some clarity later this year.”
A key to the notion that Illinois could and would add hockey and generate revenue from the program was the construction of a 5,000-seat arena in downtown Champaign, Ill., that would be within walking distance of the campus and would serve as the home rink for the Illini and the home court for their volleyball program. That project remains on hold as well. But the school is not giving up on the idea of a D-I hockey program, and is committed to at least exploring the idea some more.
In a June interview with Scott Richey of the News-Gazette in Champaign, Illinois athletic director Josh Whitman said the project remains alive for discussion.
“We were very, very close to green lighting hockey,” Whitman told the News-Gazette. “There’s no question about that. Because of how close we were, I feel obligated to restart the conversations and reassess and see where are we at this point.”
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From that, it doesn't sound like this will be the year that Illinois starts a real college hockey program either.
CrazyEddie20
Registered User
Daniels | Whitman weighs in on football struggles, facility upgrades, hockey and more
Just today, Whitman reveals that they're nowhere close.
“We have restarted some of those conversations. This was an idea that obviously was very much front of mind for us for a number of years. When the pandemic hit, that conversation moved very quickly to the back burner when we left it until just recently when we re-opened some of those discussions with all of the different stakeholders,” Whitman said. “We just want to get a sense of the room in how their worlds have changed as our world has changed, and is there still an appetite to undertake this project? That’s an ongoing conversation now.”
Whitman didn’t offer a timeline on when any decisions about the future of hockey at Illinois would take place.
“It was a pretty complex conversation before,” he said. “I would say it certainly hasn’t gotten any simpler in light of the pandemic.”
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A "pretty complex conversation," as I've described here at length.
Just today, Whitman reveals that they're nowhere close.
“We have restarted some of those conversations. This was an idea that obviously was very much front of mind for us for a number of years. When the pandemic hit, that conversation moved very quickly to the back burner when we left it until just recently when we re-opened some of those discussions with all of the different stakeholders,” Whitman said. “We just want to get a sense of the room in how their worlds have changed as our world has changed, and is there still an appetite to undertake this project? That’s an ongoing conversation now.”
Whitman didn’t offer a timeline on when any decisions about the future of hockey at Illinois would take place.
“It was a pretty complex conversation before,” he said. “I would say it certainly hasn’t gotten any simpler in light of the pandemic.”
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A "pretty complex conversation," as I've described here at length.
mk80
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- Jul 30, 2012
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On the subject of Centene Community Ice Center. Here’s an important part of that article:
“Still, Blues President and CEO Chris Zimmerman, who sits on Legacy’s board, told the Post-Dispatch that the lawsuit will have no impact on operations at the ice center”
Bottom line while the various entities and city government sort out payments. The rinks will remain in operation. Although my Thursday night hockey there has seen an increase in fees for the next session.
As far as the need yes St. Louis needed the ice desperately especially with the loss of Hardee’s Iceplex. St. Louis hockey and ice sports had far outgrown the number of sheets available even with Hardee’s 3 sheets up and running. Beyond LU’s teams, the place is always buzzing with youth, and adult hockey games and practices, hosting tournaments, special events, this summer has seen plenty of sold out (3k) concerts, etc.
There was opposition to the original location selected on preserved park land. But even most who opposed the location, said they were supportive of the project being built somewhere. Ultimately it resulted in construction happening one block up the road.
“Still, Blues President and CEO Chris Zimmerman, who sits on Legacy’s board, told the Post-Dispatch that the lawsuit will have no impact on operations at the ice center”
Bottom line while the various entities and city government sort out payments. The rinks will remain in operation. Although my Thursday night hockey there has seen an increase in fees for the next session.
As far as the need yes St. Louis needed the ice desperately especially with the loss of Hardee’s Iceplex. St. Louis hockey and ice sports had far outgrown the number of sheets available even with Hardee’s 3 sheets up and running. Beyond LU’s teams, the place is always buzzing with youth, and adult hockey games and practices, hosting tournaments, special events, this summer has seen plenty of sold out (3k) concerts, etc.
There was opposition to the original location selected on preserved park land. But even most who opposed the location, said they were supportive of the project being built somewhere. Ultimately it resulted in construction happening one block up the road.
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mk80
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So as we enter the 2021-22 College Hockey season, I think its a good time to summarize once again the state of things regarding expansion in NCAA D1 Hockey and the recent or most talked about programs and candidates:
Illinois: Determining post-pandemic interest levels. Daniels | Whitman weighs in on football struggles, facility upgrades, hockey and more
Augustana: Has Sanford money backing a donation to add a hockey program. Announced intentions of adding a program. Statement from Augustana University on Men's Ice Hockey - Augustana University Athletics
RMU: Has rehired Derek Schooley as Head Coach/Director of Hockey Ops, continuing to raise money for a return to play in 22-23. Schooley Tabbed As Head Coach/Director of Men's and Women's Hockey Operations - Robert Morris University Athletics
Alaska Anchorage: Met fundraising goals. Team will be reinstated for 22-23 Hockey team reinstated | University of Alaska Anchorage
Alabama-Huntsville: Team suspended after Atlantic Hockey rejection. Unknown return timeline.
Navy: Brief mention of interest, but delayed due to the pandemic. Atlantic Hockey Exploring Expansion
Lindenwood: No official announcement from university or athletic department to date. Targeting fall 2022 for full D1 membership. Continually gearing up with announced recruits, playing 5 games against Arizona State, Air Force, and most recently adding an exhibition game with Denver this season. Pioneers Hosting Lindenwood in Exhibition - University of Denver Athletics
High Point University: Crickets chirping
Other expansion talk: The NCHC commissioner said this last week regarding expansion, essentially a whole lot of nothing but including it for whatever it's worth.
Illinois: Determining post-pandemic interest levels. Daniels | Whitman weighs in on football struggles, facility upgrades, hockey and more
Augustana: Has Sanford money backing a donation to add a hockey program. Announced intentions of adding a program. Statement from Augustana University on Men's Ice Hockey - Augustana University Athletics
RMU: Has rehired Derek Schooley as Head Coach/Director of Hockey Ops, continuing to raise money for a return to play in 22-23. Schooley Tabbed As Head Coach/Director of Men's and Women's Hockey Operations - Robert Morris University Athletics
Alaska Anchorage: Met fundraising goals. Team will be reinstated for 22-23 Hockey team reinstated | University of Alaska Anchorage
Alabama-Huntsville: Team suspended after Atlantic Hockey rejection. Unknown return timeline.
Navy: Brief mention of interest, but delayed due to the pandemic. Atlantic Hockey Exploring Expansion
Lindenwood: No official announcement from university or athletic department to date. Targeting fall 2022 for full D1 membership. Continually gearing up with announced recruits, playing 5 games against Arizona State, Air Force, and most recently adding an exhibition game with Denver this season. Pioneers Hosting Lindenwood in Exhibition - University of Denver Athletics
High Point University: Crickets chirping
Other expansion talk: The NCHC commissioner said this last week regarding expansion, essentially a whole lot of nothing but including it for whatever it's worth.
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CrazyEddie20
Registered User
Incredible Club Clown Smackdown five times over, coming soon to a schedule near you!
Where's that rubber stamp?
mk80
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If its 5 losses, it's 5 losses. So be it, they're exhibition games, but for a program with D1 aspirations working toward full fledged membership for next year, its a step in the right direction to start playing those games.
I am excited to see how the current roster as constructed with holdover ACHA players mixed with the first announced NCAA D1 recruits will look against those teams. LU has been one of the top ACHA programs for the last 10+ plus years, so regardless of score it will be interesting to see the team on that stage and see the results. Of course there is a difference in talent between NCAA D1 and ACHA D1, as a general hockey fan and college hockey fan I'm excited to see the comparisons.
CrazyEddie20
Registered User
See, if you really knew as much about college hockey as you claim, you know what the comparison is.
Here's how it'll go: No real college hockey team wants to lose to club clowns. They have nothing to gain and everything to lose by taking these games, so while they may put a few black aces in the lineup to see how they do, they're not going to pull any punches. They're not going to let off the gas. If Morningwood scores six goals over the five games, that'd be a great outcome for them. If they won two of the games, that'd be a miracle.
mk80
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What I mean is, it's not often ACHA D1 and NCAA D1 teams play each other. I'm well aware of the differences in levels. I simply mean that seeing an ACHA D1 and NCAA D1 program go head to head is interesting. For example: How do the LU Freshman who have committed for NCAA D1 look against Denver, ASU, USAF compared to the leftover ACHA players? How do those ACHA guys elevate their personal games and for how long? Seeing Denver's handful of NHL Draft picks will be fun to watch. Will there be an improvement in each of those 5 games, for individual players, the team, etc., and to be clear by improvement, I don't mean I expect LU to win any of those 5 games. It will be interesting to see the comparisons between each of Denver, ASU, and USAF to see differences in how they all play. Denver coming from arguably the top college hockey conference in the NCHC, ASU as an independent coming out of an all B1G schedule last year, and USAF out of the AHA, coming off a disappointing 3-10-1 season. Regardless of the final score, as a Lindenwood person, it's nice to see the team play on a stage like that. And even if/when the score is lopsided there are other things to watch and evaluate.
Could Lindenwood end up as another school to try and fail? Absolutely. This is their 3rd time in the NCAA D1 conversation.
I add my own speculation on it, or nuggets of info that I know from time to time. But for the most part I try to remain objective about it and present the facts regarding the situation as they are reported, as I am regarding all the other schools on that recap list, hopefully that comes across in my posts.
You're welcome to come at me about my hockey knowledge I guess. But I don't see the reason to do so.
As for the subject of college hockey expansion, it appears Mr. Sanford has signed the check for Augustana.
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CrazyEddie20
Registered User
Good for Augustana! They'll be a great addition to Division I.
Where's that rubber stamp?
Where's that rubber stamp?
CrazyEddie20
Registered User
JMCx4
#91 and counting ...
Unnamed sources told me the Lions were paid under the table by the rest of the NCHC teams, to give the Pioneers a false sense of superiority this season. Lindenwood ad libbed on scoring first, but Coach Z punished them with a bag skate on the bus during the ride back home.
CrazyEddie20
Registered User
Unnamed sources told me the Lions were paid under the table by the rest of the NCHC teams, to give the Pioneers a false sense of superiority this season. Lindenwood ad libbed on scoring first, but Coach Z punished them with a bag skate on the bus during the ride back home.
A 12-hour bus ride after a 9-1 loss is punishment enough.
Not sure what the point of this was? Of course a non-DI team would be able to match up against one of the more consistent programmes in college hockey.
St. Thomas lost 12-2 on Friday against St. Cloud, doesn't mean they're going to be that bad three/four years from now...
CrazyEddie20
Registered User
I thought some people might be interested in the score and knowing how an ACHA squad matches up with a real college hockey team.
And as for St. Thomas, at least they went ahead and went Division I, they didn't talk out their ass about it for years while looking for an ink pad for their rubber stamp.
I understand what you're getting at, but I think we can all agree on the fact that Covid sort of killed a lot of school's economics and future plans except schools in the Big Five (which Lindenwood isn't part of).
