World Cup: National Team threads #2

[gary69]

Ben White rejecting Southgate is hilarious and I love it.

Does this mean he gets suspended for the next few Arsenal matches?

At least there used to be a two club matches ban for a player who refuses an international call-up.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

Does this mean he gets suspended for the next few Arsenal matches?

At least there used to be a two club matches ban for a player who refuses an international call-up.

I think that's still technically a rule but it's never enforced any more

 

[cgf]

Nice to see Beste in the squad, never seen him play before this season, but he has looked good in the limited action (2-3 matches) I've seen him this season with Heidenheim.

Late developer for sure, wonder why he didn't break through at higher level eaarlier.

He came out of BVB's academy as a LB prospect who couldn't defend and wasn't very dynamic, at a time when back 4s dominated the Bundesliga. Since he wasn't good enough on the ball to push up into a more attacking role, and his defense still makes Gosens & Raum look like shutdown guys, there wasn't really a role for him.

He had to improve his precision with the ball a lot before finding success as a Grifo / Arrango type winger.

 

[luiginb]

My German team with everyone fit:

Stefan Ortega (Marc-André ter Stegen)(Janis Blaswich)

Benjamin Henrichs (Pascal Stenzel)
Mats Hummels (Antonio Rüdiger)
Nico Schlotterbeck (Niklas Süle)
Maximilian Mittelstädt (David Raum)

Joshua Kimmich (Leon Goretzka)
İlkay Gündoğan (Florian Wirtz)
Toni Kroos (Felix Nmecha)

Leroy Sané (Serge Gnabry)
Thomas Müller (Deniz Undav)
Jamal Musiala (Jan-Niklas Beste)

extras: Pascal Gross, Manuel Neuer, Fabian Reese

 

[bluesfan94]

He has been amazing over the past 6 months or so and was in the WC squad. Feels like his England stock has only trended upwards.

For some reason, people outside of Arsenal fans have been much slower to realize he's been one of the best RBs in the world this season.

 

[robertmac43]

It was trending upwards until the World Cup. Bears remembering that he actually left Qatar early, and hasn't been called up since. There was quite a bit of speculation at the time about a falling out with Southgate and Steve Holland (some rumours about a training ground bust-up with Holland), and other speculation that he didn't want to be there just to be a bench player (starter or bust). But all this was just speculation.

There's also often been a sense that football for Ben White is simply a job and he's just focused on doing it at club level. Can't begrudge him that.

It's been so long since Ben White has consistently played centreback that I forget what he's like there, but given the current injuries at rightback he would've been a good squad option.

Qatar and his problems with Southgate aside his playing stock has definitely been on the rise. Obviously there is something going on behind the scenes between the player and management.

In terms of White's mentality. He said it himself in an interview recently, life is not about football for him. I remember an interview back when he rejoined Brighton following his Leads loan spell where he said something along the same line. Hasn't effected his play or growth which is great to see.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

Qatar and his problems with Southgate aside his playing stock has definitely been on the rise. Obviously there is something going on behind the scenes between the player and management.

In terms of White's mentality. He said it himself in an interview recently, life is not about football for him. I remember an interview back when he rejoined Brighton following his Leads loan spell where he said something along the same line. Hasn't effected his play or growth which is great to see.

Oh I agree, his playing stock has absolutely been rising. But his England stock is a whole other thing, and his England stock tumbled and stagnated.

And hey, if he wants to be a good footballer, have some fun and cash some cheques, and go home and enjoy his evening? Maybe even get two weeks off in late March, or an actual summer break? That's his prerogative.

 

[robertmac43]

And hey, if he wants to be a good footballer, have some fun and cash some cheques, and go home and enjoy his evening? Maybe even get two weeks off in late March, or an actual summer break? That's his prerogative.

From an Arsenal perspective I'm fine with him taking some time to prep for the stretch run here. Some big football matches ahead.

 

[cgf]

My German team with everyone fit:

Stefan Ortega (Marc-André ter Stegen)(Janis Blaswich)

Benjamin Henrichs (Pascal Stenzel)
Mats Hummels (Antonio Rüdiger)
Nico Schlotterbeck (Niklas Süle)
Maximilian Mittelstädt (David Raum)

Joshua Kimmich (Leon Goretzka)
İlkay Gündoğan (Florian Wirtz)
Toni Kroos (Felix Nmecha)

Leroy Sané (Serge Gnabry)
Thomas Müller (Deniz Undav)
Jamal Musiala (Jan-Niklas Beste)

extras: Pascal Gross, Manuel Neuer, Fabian Reese

What did we ever do to hurt you so?

 

[luiginb]

What did we ever do to hurt you so?

you focus too much on prospects

this a team of winners

 

[cgf]

you focus too much on prospects

this a team of winners

Wirtz is a little bit more than a prospect at this point ;-)

If you want to win with our talent pool, you're gunna need our best goal scorer (Füllkrug), our best player this season (Wirtz), and someone who will sit in front of the defense (Can / Andrich / Pavlovic); while Kimmich plays FB. Our best bet would be something like:

Füllkrug
Sane - Musiala - Wirtz
Can - Gundogan
Henrichs - CB - CB - Kimmich
ter Stegen

Musiala - Füllkrug - Wirtz
Goretzka - Can - Gundogan
Henrichs - CB - CB - Kimmich
ter Stegen

CB: Schlotterbeck / Hummels / Rüdiger / Thiaw / Süle / Tah​

 

[luiginb]

Nagelsmann hands out first nominations for Pavlovic, Beier, Beste, Undav, Mittelstadt, and Anton. Interesting seeing Kimmich listed as a defender.


ter Stegen / Neuer / Leno / Baumann at GK
Raum / Mittelstadt / Beste at LWB
Kimmich / Henrichs / Groß at RB
Rüdiger / Tah / Koch / Anton at CB
Pavlovic / Andrich at the 6
Gundogan / Kroos / Groß at the 8
Wirtz / Musiala / Havertz / Führich / Müller at AM
Füllkrug / Beier / Undav at FW

@cgf I'd be more worried Nagelsmann thinks Anton, Koch, Pavlovic and Beier should be anywhere near the NT

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

Neuer and Müller in...cgf in shambles.

Like a lot of the variety here. Pavlović has been really good, even if it's a bit early for him. Continued fan of Groß, Führich, and Andrich getting calls. Nice to see Beier, Undav, Koch, and the defensive debutants...and Kimmich included with the defenders rather than the midfield.

Should be fun to watch.

 

[luiginb]

I love Pavlovic AS A PROSPECT. he's got less than 1000 minutes as a pro though, of which I've seen most of, some played at RB. He should be starring for U21 for now. Regarding Koch, I have also seen enough of him in two leagues to know he shouldn't be there.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

I love Pavlovic AS A PROSPECT. he's got less than 1000 minutes as a pro though, of which I've seen most of, some played at RB. He should be starring for U21 for now. Regarding Koch, I have also seen enough of him in two leagues to know he shouldn't be there.

With Pavs there are apparently nation tie concerns, so he's not quite there but it is what it is. All in all for the group we're still probably going to see probably Hummels, Sane, and maybe Goretzka and Stach back in eventually, so some of the peripheral guys it's great to get a look but they probably won't be there quite yet.

I find the dearth of BVB players interesting after it seems they've been collecting more NT types in recent years. Curious if it just shook out that way or if there's something deliberate to it.

 

[Evilo]

So Germany is doing it spanish impression and tries to lock double nationality guys?
Tons of HFboards hate incoming.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

So Germany is doing it spanish impression and tries to lock double nationality guys?
Tons of HFboards hate incoming.

I don't like it when Spain does it, I don't like it when England does it, and I don't like it when Germany does it!

 

[cgf]

I don't understand what we're supposed to be criticized for. Is it that we still give kids opportunities at the youth levels, even when we know they're going to switch nations before reaching the senior level; like we have with Samardzic, Wanner, and the Dardai's?

Is Musiala really so starved for PT by the attacking depth on our NT, that he's lamenting not having opted for England?

 

[cgf]

I love Pavlovic AS A PROSPECT. he's got less than 1000 minutes as a pro though, of which I've seen most of, some played at RB. He should be starring for U21 for now. Regarding Koch, I have also seen enough of him in two leagues to know he shouldn't be there.

I hear ya, but Musiala had less than 1300 minutes as a pro before the 2021 Euros...which was even less when he made his debut in March 2021...and we were a lot deeper in the attacking midfield than we are now at the 6; even if Martel does turn out to be the Wirtz to Pavlovic's Musiala.

As you may have noticed in my previous post, Koch doesn't crack my top 5 CB options...but I don't mind Nagelsmann taking a look at him in a depth role; he moves pretty well as an outside CB in a back 3.


Plus the U21s already have Martel locking down the 6...like Wirtz in '21...with a number of interesting options for the 8 like Reitz, Röhl, Tohumcu, Wagner, etc.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I don't understand what we're supposed to be criticized for. Is it that we still give kids opportunities at the youth levels, even when we know they're going to switch nations before reaching the senior level; like we have with Samardzic, Wanner, and the Dardai's?

Is Musiala really so starved for PT by the attacking depth on our NT, that he's lamenting not having opted for England?

I don't know if that's what Germany does but giving guys a couple of caps just to lock them into the talent pool and not much else like Spain and England have done is insanely f***ed.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

I don't understand what we're supposed to be criticized for. Is it that we still give kids opportunities at the youth levels, even when we know they're going to switch nations before reaching the senior level; like we have with Samardzic, Wanner, and the Dardai's?

Is Musiala really so starved for PT by the attacking depth on our NT, that he's lamenting not having opted for England?

Such martyrdom! What a public service!

Cases where a player is eligible for playing for two NTs of broadly similar quality are not what are being criticized. Cases where a player is obviously of NT playing quality already are not what are being criticized.

What is criticized, rightfully IMO, is when a big NT tosses a solitary cap the way of a young player who will likely never break double digit appearances just to lock them in, when they could conceivably become key players for other national teams and have fruitful international careers. England did it with Fikayo Tomori in 2019 to make sure he didn't play for Nigeria, and he's proceeded to get 5 caps in 5 years. They called up Eddie Nketiah, who if he fully commits to England will likely max out at 10 caps, in part to ward off interest from Ghana. In the classic, more bonkers case (which helped catalyse the rule change which has loosened switching teams), Spain capped Munir el-Haddadi at 18 on the off chance that he might turn out to be a great player.

This with Pavlovic is not that (yet) because he's being called up for friendlies and so wont' be locked down. And they've also improved the rules for switching nations when you get capped very young. But setting out to cap-tie dual nationals who will likely never become regulars for your NT rubs me majorly the wrong way.

 

[cgf]

I don't know if that's what Germany does but giving guys a couple of caps just to lock them into the talent pool and not much else like Spain and England have done is insanely f***ed.

The only recent examples of us rushing to cap someone have been Pavlovic and Musiala...and it has worked out pretty great for Musiala so far. We've lost a lot more kids that came up through our youth system because we didn't rush to cap them, than we've gained.

Off the top of my head; Samardzic and two of the three Dardai brothers have already switched to Serbia & Hungary respectively. Wanner is likely to switch to Austria's senior team but still features regularly for our youth teams.

And there have been a ton of Turkish kids who came up through German youth teams / academies, who we didn't pressure to take an early cap...two of their biggest talents right now (Uzun & Yildiz) are both from Regensburg and came up through German academies.


Dahoud is the closest example for us, but we didn't rush him into the senior NT by any stretch of the imagination. If anything, his talent + early level of play warranted a much earlier look than he eventually got...but that didn't happen before he got complacent; leading his growth to stagnate.

...and he has ended up switching to the Syrian senior NT now, anyway. He just didn't want to do that until he gave up on ever being a regular for the German NT; whether for patriotic or career reasons.

 

[luiginb]

To be fair Munir at 18 was projected to be a superstar. He's also born and trained in Spain.

 

[cgf]

Such martyrdom! What a public service!

Cases where a player is eligible for playing for two NTs of broadly similar quality are not what are being criticized. Cases where a player is obviously of NT playing quality already are not what are being criticized.

What is criticized, rightfully IMO, is when a big NT tosses a solitary cap the way of a young player who will likely never break double digit appearances just to lock them in, when they could conceivably become key players for other national teams and have fruitful international careers. England did it with Fikayo Tomori in 2019 to make sure he didn't play for Nigeria, and he's proceeded to get 5 caps in 5 years. They called up Eddie Nketiah, who if he fully commits to England will likely max out at 10 caps, in part to ward off interest from Ghana. In the classic, more bonkers case (which helped catalyse the rule change which has loosened switching teams), Spain capped Munir el-Haddadi at 18 on the off chance that he might turn out to be a great player.

This with Pavlovic is not that (yet) because he's being called up for friendlies and so wont' be locked down. And they've also improved the rules for switching nations when you get capped very young. But setting out to cap-tie dual nationals who will likely never become regulars for your NT rubs me majorly the wrong way.

No Biggie, you can save your applause. Putting in the work to hard-carry the rest of Europe is just what we do


So if Pavlovic doesn't qualify because of his talent and him still being free to switch if he doesn't make the Euro squad. What are we talking about? Us taking Musiala along to the euros in 2021? Dahoud waiting for the German NT, when he could've been starting for syria at 18?

That's why I brought up the dual nationals who we could've pressured to commit to us like England & Spain, but haven't. There just aren't many examples of dual nationals who have been rushed into our senior NT recently, and the one main example that there is, is getting tons of PT.

 

[Evilo]

If France was doing that, you'd hear to no end. The closest one was Domenech (the asshole) who called up Higuain because Argentina wouldn't call him up and Pipita said he'd play for France if Argentina wouldn't call him (and obviously, he had no intention of doing it and that's fine).
I think since then France has called up players who had NT potential.
But if they were starting to call up the Cherkis, Ben Seghirs, Magassas, etc.... they'd chance the whole balance of power in every AFCON.