World Cup: National Team threads #2

[Wee Baby Seamus]

No Biggie, you can save your applause. Putting in the work to hard-carry the rest of Europe is just what we do


So if Pavlovic doesn't qualify because of his talent and him still being free to switch if he doesn't make the Euro squad. What are we talking about? Us taking Musiala along to the euros in 2021? Dahoud waiting for the German NT, when he could've been starting for syria at 18?

That's why I brought up the dual nationals who we could've pressured to commit to us like England & Spain, but haven't. There just aren't many examples of dual nationals who have been rushed into our senior NT recently, and the one main example that there is, is getting tons of PT.

Let's just put reality to the side for a second so we can forget that Germany has been lowkey the sick man of Europe since COVID

I was mainly just engaging with Evilo pointing out that Spain isn't the only country that prematurely caps prospective dual nationals. Spain and England are absolutely the biggest culprits.

Capping Pavlovic now feels a lot more premature than capping Musiala did. If they bring Pavlovic to the Euros, cap him a few times, and then never again, they're depriving him of a likely career starting spot for Serbia. It's the prospect of that occurring. Pavlovic is not currently Germany NT quality. Musiala was already Germany NT quality. I am hopeful they will not lock Pavlovic in before it's clear that he's Germany NT quality.

 

[Power Man]

Overall I'm very happy with this list

No favoritism like Belmadi so far, no walking zombie Mahrez

Bekrar (NYFC) and Belloumi finally called up

Not sure about Brahimi and Benzia though, and it would have been nice to see Kadri

 

[cgf]

Let's just put reality to the side for a second so we can forget that Germany has been lowkey the sick man of Europe since COVID

I was mainly just engaging with Evilo pointing out that Spain isn't the only country that prematurely caps prospective dual nationals. Spain and England are absolutely the biggest culprits.

Capping Pavlovic now feels a lot more premature than capping Musiala did. If they bring Pavlovic to the Euros, cap him a few times, and then never again, they're depriving him of a likely career starting spot for Serbia. It's the prospect of that occurring. Pavlovic is not currently Germany NT quality. Musiala was already Germany NT quality. I am hopeful they will not lock Pavlovic in before it's clear that he's Germany NT quality.

I know you said you wanted to put reality aside, but senior team results =/= youth work, otherwise our kids wouldn't be winning so many trophies. And our most embarrassing result happened before COVID


I agree that it feels a lot earlier for Pavlovic than it did for Musiala despite them having similar senior level experience at the time of their first cap because Jamal was such an unreal level talent.

But a) these caps won't tie Pavlovic down, so until he actually makes the euro roster, this conversation is purely hypothetical. And b) despite his inexperience, I'm not so sure that he's not already Can- / Andrich- / Prömel-quality or better

So seeing how close he is and seeing how he responds to being with the senior NT, are probably the main reasons why Nagelsmann is picking him for these friendlies.

And if Serbia are going to pressure him to make a decision ASAP...potentially robbing him of the opportunity to start for a WM winner...then we should at least give him the chance to stake his claim to a future with the German NT, first.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

I know you said you wanted to put reality aside, but senior team results =/= youth work, otherwise our kids wouldn't be winning so many trophies. And our most embarrassing result happened before COVID


I agree that it feels a lot earlier for Pavlovic than it did for Musiala despite them having similar senior level experience at the time of their first cap because Jamal was such an unreal level talent.

But a) these caps won't tie Pavlovic down, so until he actually makes the euro roster, this conversation is purely hypothetical. And b) despite his inexperience, I'm not so sure that he's not already Can- / Andrich- / Prömel-quality or better

So seeing how close he is and seeing how he responds to being with the senior NT, are probably the main reasons why Nagelsmann is picking him for these friendlies.

And if Serbia are going to pressure him to make a decision ASAP...potentially robbing him of the opportunity to start for a WM winner...then we should at least give him the chance to stake his claim to a future with the German NT, first.

Oh my friend, I was talking about the German economy I assumed your joke about doing the hard work carrying Europe was a Eurozone joke.

And yeah, Serbia also shouldn't be pushing him to decide right now. Let them cook a bit more!

 

[cgf]

Oh my friend, I was talking about the German economy I assumed your joke about doing the hard work carrying Europe was a Eurozone joke.

And yeah, Serbia also shouldn't be pushing him to decide right now. Let them cook a bit more!

Was meant as both a eurozone joke and a comment about the success our youth teams have been having in recent years, but I yeah I figured you were making a joke about our early exits since 2018.


Hopefully Pavlovic shines over this international break...convincing him & the DFB that he could be a longterm starter for us...but Nagelsmann is able to convince him (& Adeyemi) that the best way to prepare for his long future of starting for our NT wouldn't be sitting on the bench at the euros, but helping lead our U21s.

As that team could be very good this cycle if the CBs hold up:

Moukoko, Weiper, Adeyemi, Gruda, Beier, etc. as options in attack
Pavlovic, Martel, Tohumcu, Reitz, Röhl, etc. filling out the midfield
Netz, Rothe, Brown, Morgalla, Oermann; etc. as FB options
Urbig & Atubolu in goal

 

[robertmac43]

Ajax have won 2 out of 10 games since Henderson joined lol

 

[Power Man]

lol Pordan Penderson

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

Let's just put reality to the side for a second so we can forget that Germany has been lowkey the sick man of Europe since COVID

I was mainly just engaging with Evilo pointing out that Spain isn't the only country that prematurely caps prospective dual nationals. Spain and England are absolutely the biggest culprits.

Capping Pavlovic now feels a lot more premature than capping Musiala did. If they bring Pavlovic to the Euros, cap him a few times, and then never again, they're depriving him of a likely career starting spot for Serbia. It's the prospect of that occurring. Pavlovic is not currently Germany NT quality. Musiala was already Germany NT quality. I am hopeful they will not lock Pavlovic in before it's clear that he's Germany NT quality.

It's a little premature, but he's one of Bayern's current starting mids (and is tending to get preference over Kimmich and Goretzka)--it's not exactly a huge stretch that such a player would get a call-up, especially for friendlies.

 

[Savant]

View attachment 835631

Konate is still injured. Don’t think he is playing Sunday; don’t think he should be going away here

 

[cgf]

It's a little premature, but he's one of Bayern's current starting mids (and is tending to get preference over Kimmich and Goretzka)--it's not exactly a huge stretch that such a player would get a call-up, especially for friendlies.

Yeah. Him doing it for Bayern definitely gives him a leg up on securing a spot moving forward...especially with his play having seemingly shifted Kimmich back to FB full-time. If Martel was the dual national 6 in our talent pool, I'd say there was no chance of us bringing him along for the euros.

Do I think Pavlovic will be a better option than Can / Khedira / Andrich this summer? I'm not sure, but the longer he keeps it up for Bayern, the better you have to feel about his chances...especially if he gels well/quickly with the senior NT during this next break.

I still wouldn't rush to cap him unless he looked like the answer to all of our problems against the French & Dutch...at a level already higher than Can was playing at last season...and he kept getting better for Bayern. Especially because part of me still thinks Martel will be the better fit for us in the long run.

But sometimes kids just play so well that it's unfair to rob of them of greater opportunities just because they are young. So I'm not too worried about Pavlovic becoming the first example of the DFB Tomori'ing a player.

If he gets brought along to the euros it'll almost certainly be because our FA thinks he is already ready to contribute to the senior team, or because he impresses so much that they want to start integrating him for the next cycle.

If we do end up capping him despite him not (yet, if ever) being up to snuff, just because we're desperate for a 6, then the DFB will deserve to get s*** for behaving like the English & Spanish FAs. But so far, this isn't on the long list of things to criticize our FA for.

 

[cgf]

Well after all of that, Pavlovic has to pull out because he’s sick. According to the Serbs, he’s not expected to make his final decision until after the euros anyway. So this friendly would’ve just been to see how things went…kinda like Wanner’s time with the Austrian senior team.

 

[Power Man]

A lot of players are suddenly injured

 

[Jussi]

Kobbie Mainoo moved to the England senior squad from the U-21s.

 

[bluesfan94]

If France was doing that, you'd hear to no end. The closest one was Domenech (the asshole) who called up Higuain because Argentina wouldn't call him up and Pipita said he'd play for France if Argentina wouldn't call him (and obviously, he had no intention of doing it and that's fine).
I think since then France has called up players who had NT potential.
But if they were starting to call up the Cherkis, Ben Seghirs, Magassas, etc.... they'd chance the whole balance of power in every AFCON.

Is the implication that Pavlovic doesn't have NT potential? He's nearly 20 and is a starting midfielder for a Champions League quarterfinal team.

I mean, is his call up really any different from the first callup for Lukeba or Gusto or Thuram or Guendouzi or so on. I know your answer is yes because they're French, so this post is more to facilitate conversation with those capable of carrying it out.

 

[Evilo]

Lukeba was called up after a huge rash of injuries.
Gusto I'm not sure can play for any other selection.
Thuram played a f***ing WC final. He was never going to play for any other team, not sure if he's even eligible.
Douzi is a player that would play on most NT and got rightfully called up.

So I'm not even sure how much you want to dig but that's pretty bad.

Fact is if France was calling up every binational after less than 20 pro games (even qualify ones) to block them from other NT they'd get flamed for it.
But hey who expected anything different that argue the unarguable from you?

 

[bluesfan94]

Pretty wild admission that France played a player in the WCF that wasn’t even called up to the team. Given that you can’t even figure out your own NT, maybe stop attacking other ones.

The Guendouzi defense was especially silly. He’d play on most national teams. Yeah, exactly, but France called him up when he was 19 and kept him from those other national teams. No different than the Nketiah example, except Guendouzi was younger so it’s “worse.”

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

Pretty wild admission that France played a player in the WCF that wasn’t even called up to the team. Given that you can’t even figure out your own NT, maybe stop attacking other ones.

The Guendouzi defense was especially silly. He’d play on most national teams. Yeah, exactly, but France called him up when he was 19 and kept him from those other national teams. No different than the Nketiah example, except Guendouzi was younger so it’s “worse.”

um Thuram most definitely played in the WC Final

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Pretty wild admission that France played a player in the WCF that wasn’t even called up to the team. Given that you can’t even figure out your own NT, maybe stop attacking other ones.

The Guendouzi defense was especially silly. He’d play on most national teams. Yeah, exactly, but France called him up when he was 19 and kept him from those other national teams. No different than the Nketiah example, except Guendouzi was younger so it’s “worse.”

TBF regarding Guendouzi he was approached by Morocco as well and made a clear and final decision that he would only play for the French team. He wasn't on the fence at all.

 

[bluesfan94]

um Thuram most definitely played in the WC Final

His brother certainly did.

TBF regarding Guendouzi he was approached by Morocco as well and made a clear and final decision that he would only play for the French team. He wasn't on the fence at all.

Fair enough. There are plenty of other examples of France calling up potential dual nationals very early in their career. Camavinga, Saliba, WZE, Wesley Fofana, Badiashile, etc. Acting like France doesn't call up dual nationals while their young is a silly silly argument.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

His brother certainly did.

Fair enough. There are plenty of other examples of France calling up potential dual nationals very early in their career. Camavinga, Saliba, WZE, Wesley Fofana, Badiashile, etc. Acting like France doesn't call up dual nationals while their young is a silly silly argument.

yea so this is 100% on you for not clarifying which Thuram LMAO, you have no right to attempt dunks here. all you said was "Thuram."

 

[bluesfan94]

yea so this is 100% on you for not clarifying which Thuram LMAO, you have no right to attempt dunks here. all you said was "Thuram."

In the context of the conversation, I thought it would be pretty clear that we weren't talking about the one that played in the WCF and the one who is still U23

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

In the context of the conversation, I thought it would be pretty clear that we weren't talking about the one that played in the WCF and the one who is still U23

well you mentioned Guendouzi who, uh, was on the bench during that exact same WCF and is not U23, so...

you could just own the fact that your message was unclear rather than assuming that everyone but you is a f***ing moron

 

[bluesfan94]

well you mentioned Guendouzi who, uh, was on the bench during that exact same WCF and is not U23, so...

you could just own the fact that your message was unclear rather than assuming that everyone but you is a f***ing moron

That's a good point; I had included Guendouzi last second and didn't go back to clean up. Which, to be fair, sounds a lot like Guendouzi in the midfield.

But this all distracts from the point that France has capped a lot of dual nationals when they were young. That it hasn't been literally every single one doesn't really mean all that much.

To tie it all the way back to the main conversation, the issue comes when a team is clearly calling up a player that doesn't have a good pathway to play time just to cap tie them. This is the Nketiah concept to me - he's clearly behind at least 4 other strikers (Kane, Toney, Watkins, Wilson). I don't really see that being the case with Pavlovic. Whether he pans out or not doesn't change the fact that Germany needs a 6.

 

[Live in the Now]

The point you’re trying to make is faulty though. Part of the dual National game is entrapment and luring poorer kids with money. If you’re trying to make that point you shouldn’t include players who are rich kids of an international footballer who played for the NT that called his kids up. Isn’t it like no shit? Of course they’re going to play for France and the tricks that countries use to bribe players to play for them don’t work because the Thuram kids are rich. So it’s a bad point

 

[cgf]

I dunno what the big deal is, the serbs owe us for Samardzic & Simic either way

And the English can't be mad at us for Musiala given what we turned Jude into...