World Cup: National Team threads #2

[HeHateMeFrisbee]

Brazil looking pretty bad...CONMEBOL qualifying is a long process but they need to start getting some better results soon

 

[cgf]

I am so curious to see how this team lines up.

Füllkrug; Sane, Havertz, Wirtz, Brandt; Gundogan, Kimmich, Henrichs; Rüdiger, & Tah.

4-1-4-1 with Henrichs, Ilkay, & Kimmich linking the CBs to the front 5? Back 3 with Kimmich or Henrichs as an outside FB and the other at WB opposite Brandt/Sane?

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

I am so curious to see how this team lines up.

Füllkrug; Sane, Havertz, Wirtz, Brandt; Gundogan, Kimmich, Henrichs; Rüdiger, & Tah.

4-1-4-1 with Henrichs, Ilkay, & Kimmich linking the CBs to the front 5? Back 3 with Kimmich or Henrichs as an outside FB and the other at WB opposite Brandt/Sane?

What is it on the pitch? On paper I thought that it might be a Pep-style 3ATB without traditional wing backs, but neither Kimmich nor Gundo is Rodri lol.

 

[cgf]

What is it on the pitch? On paper I thought that it might be a Pep-style 3ATB without traditional wing backs, but neither Kimmich nor Gundo is Rodri lol.

Missed the first half so can't say.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

Missed the first half so can't say.

What the f***s the use of you

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

Play Kimmich=lose

1-2 at half against Türkiye's B squad.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

What is it on the pitch? On paper I thought that it might be a Pep-style 3ATB without traditional wing backs, but neither Kimmich nor Gundo is Rodri lol.

It's one of these asymmetrical set-ups Nagelsmann likes that is functionally more like like a 3-4-2-1 with Havertz/Sane more as wingers than wingbacks. Kimmich and Gundo should never...ever....ever play in a double pivot together again. It never works.

 

[cgf]

What the f***s the use of you

Looks almost like a classic WM with a Kimmich-Gundogan in front of a back 3, with Havertz & Sane on the wings...although Kai has had to drop deeper from what I've seen so far. Basically vacillating between:

Füllkrug
Havertz - Wirtz - Brandt - Sane
Gundogan - Kimmich
Rüdiger - Tah - Henrichs

Füllkrug
Wirtz - Brandt - Sane
Gundogan - Kimmich
Havertz - Rüdiger - Tah - Henrichs​

It's one of these asymmetrical set-ups Nagelsmann likes that is functionally more like like a 3-4-2-1 with Havertz/Sane more as wingers than wingbacks. Kimmich and Gundo should never...ever....ever play in a double pivot together again. It never works.

Tah & Rüdi have been more problematic than the double pivot in this half

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

Looks almost like a classic WM with a Kimmich-Gundogan in front of a back 3, with Havertz & Sane on the wings...although Kai has had to drop deeper from what I've seen so far.



Tah & Rüdi have been more problematic than the double pivot in this half

The double pivot isn't an issue necessarily, it's that Gundogan/Kimmich are an ineffective double-pivot for shielding the poor defense and slow the game down way too much in attack. It's been much more effective when pairing Gundogan with Groß or Goretzka--even Andrich would be fine, players that aren't going to dwell on the ball.

 

[cgf]

Interesting experiment from Nagelsmann. Ultimately I don't think that formation can work without playing 1 (or 2) more defensive players...and Tah needs to be replaced by Thiaw or Schlotterbeck even if we do play a more classic 6 in front of the back 3...but was interesting to see how well Kai and Henrichs did in their new roles; while Brandt & Wirtz shined in the double-10.

That shape would be a strangely good fit if we sent all of our best talent to a U23 tourney:

Moukoko/Beier
Adeyemi - Musiala - Wirtz - Schade/Knauff
Martel - Nmecha/Stiller
Schlotterbeck - Thiaw - Morgalla/ABK

or U21:

Moukoko/Beier
Adeyemi - Musiala - Wirtz - Schade/Knauff
Martel - Ouedraogo/Reitz
Schmidt/Dardai - Bella Kotchap - Morgalla​

 

[gary69]

It's one of these asymmetrical set-ups Nagelsmann likes that is functionally more like like a 3-4-2-1 with Havertz/Sane more as wingers than wingbacks. Kimmich and Gundo should never...ever....ever play in a double pivot together again. It never works.

There's experimenting and then there's the laughable formation Nagelsmann put out today. I mean, it's 7 months until the final tournament.

Havertz was a wide left forward when attacking, fine, but when defending and without the ball, the entire left flank was left for him to defend. Kudos for him, he put in the effort and run back very well the whole match, but that still doesn't make him a capable defensive LB. No wonder he conceded the penalty.

Gundogan was useless passenger in the midfield, I don't understand how can he be the captain with this side. Notable support for Turkey from the crowd was to be expected, but even so, it was more like a home match for Turkey.

If that is the case even against Germany, then it most certainly will be the case against every team in the final tournament, too.

 

[gary69]

Interesting experiment from Nagelsmann. Ultimately I don't think that formation can work without playing 1 (or 2) more defensive players...and Tah needs to be replaced by Thiaw or Schlotterbeck even if we do play a more classic 6 in front of the back 3...but was interesting to see how well Kai and Henrichs did in their new roles; while Brandt & Wirtz shined in the double-10.

I wouldn't say it was interesting, more like stupid experiment this close to the final tournament. If the finals were in two years, then okay, maybe he can establish that formation/system in time.

Like you said, I don't think it can work unless a more defensive player or two is introduced into the line-up, certainly on the left flank.

Turkey weren't prepared for this formation/personnel by Germany, but if Nagelsmann stick with this in more matches leading up to the finals, then the teams in the final tournament know to focus on exploiting that left flank, CBs and lack of help for them from midfielders.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

There's experimenting and then there's the laughable formation Nagelsmann put out today. I mean, it's 7 months until the final tournament.

Havertz was a wide left forward when attacking, fine, but when defending and without the ball, the entire left flank was left for him to defend. Kudos for him, he put in the effort and run back very well the whole match, but that still doesn't make him a capable defensive LB. No wonder he conceded the penalty.

Gundogan was useless passenger in the midfield, I don't understand how can he be the captain with this side. Notable support for Turkey from the crowd was to be expected, but even so, it was more like a home match for Turkey.

If that is the case even against Germany, then it most certainly be the case against every team in the final tournament, too.

It's the same crap Flick was doing as well. I get that JN is coming in late and wants to figure things out and explore but there's only so many friendlies remaining and this team's form has been so inconsistent. It was working for several games...just need to go back to that base and then add in some variations to it.

I fear he's going to try to go Big Brain and try to be fancy, try to shoehorn all the "best" players in the lineup (e.g. Kimmich is not worthy of a spot based on club or national form currently), and it's going to be a disaster again.

 

[cgf]

I wouldn't say it was interesting, more like stupid experiment this close to the final tournament. If the finals were in two years, then okay, maybe he can establish that formation/system in time.

Like you said, I don't think it can work unless a more defensive player or two is introduced into the line-up, certainly on the left flank.

Turkey weren't prepared for this formation/personnel by Germany, but if Nagelsmann stick with this in more matches leading up to the finals, then the teams in the final tournament know to focus on exploiting that left flank, CBs and lack of help for them from midfielders.

Oh I doubt we see this formation to start many matches, but we’ve got a primary formation that we’ve seen works….3+1 in the back with a 6 next to Ilkay & Füllkrug up front...and were missing at least half of that defense, so it's not like we could have our best 11 use this break to build chemistry.

If we see shapes like this in serious matches it’ll most likely be because we have to chase the game, and with a holding 6 on the left side of the double pivot...especially someone with FB flexibility...this could be a viable way for us to chase games.

As we could've easily scored 2-3 more goals...without having seen the first half, Havertz & Brandt both squandered quality chances that they typically convert for the NT and we had a handful of other promising movements that just didn't click.


It feels harsh to me to blame Kai's lack of experience as a WB for the penalty that he conceded. Dude was reaching forward with his leg to block off the cross, everybody’s back arm goes out to counterbalance when they do that. He just got unlucky cause he's so lanky.

It's the same crap Flick was doing as well. I get that JN is coming in late and wants to figure things out and explore but there's only so many friendlies remaining and this team's form has been so inconsistent. It was working for several games...just need to go back to that base and then add in some variations to it.

I fear he's going to try to go Big Brain and try to be fancy, try to shoehorn all the "best" players in the lineup (e.g. Kimmich is not worthy of a spot based on club or national form currently), and it's going to be a disaster again.

Feels like you guys are over reacting more than a little bit lol.

 

[cgf]

I wonder if we'll see LeGo in backline at some point. He's had to deputy there for Bayern and if he committed to it, Leon could be a very interesting option in a back 3. Would be very curious to see a Henrichs - Rüdiger - Hummels - Goretzka back 4, with Andrich or Groß next to Ilkay, behind Havertz - Wirtz - Brandt/Sane & Füllkrug.

EDIT:
The reason I'm not too worried about Nagelsmann experimenting is because too many of the guys who we need to build chemistry just aren't there right now. Our front 5 is pretty clear; Füllkrug, Sane - Musiala - Wirtz, Gundogan; with Havertz, Brandt, Kimmich, Goretzka, & Hofmann / Adeyemi / Gnabry for depth. And we started all 4 of those 5 starters who were healthy...plus 3 of our 4 best bench options.

Where we need clarity and cohesion is the 6 other spots, and there we're missing MAtS, Can / Khedira, Gosens, & Thiaw / Schlotterbeck. Henrichs can build chemistry with Rüdiger or Hummels, but we really shouldn't be starting more than 1 of Hummels / Rüdiger / Süle at the euros...and if we started all 3 we'd be in real trouble.

So with the players available at most 3 of our ideal starters for the back 6 could work on their cohesion...and Henrichs did start alongside Rüdiger, who is likely to be the veteran leader for our defense at the euros unless Hummels stays fresh enough to be a legit option at the end of a long club campaign.

 

[luiginb]

How about, crazy idea I know, you play the players in their main positions?

I wonder if we'll see LeGo in backline at some point. He's had to deputy there for Bayern and if he committed to it, Leon could be a very interesting option in a back 3. Would be very curious to see a Henrichs - Rüdiger - Hummels - Goretzka back 4, with Andrich or Groß next to Ilkay, behind Havertz - Wirtz - Brandt/Sane & Füllkrug.

 

[cgf]

How about, crazy idea I know, you play the players in their main positions?

What I said in the edit about this window having to be a more experimental one in defense due to MAtS, Can, Gosens, and our young CBs not being there. But also just that our talent isn't evenly distributed so our current options at certain spots aren't good enough.

I'm optimistic about Martel, Morgalla, Schlotterbeck, Thiaw, Dardai, Bella Kotchap, etc., but they just won't be ready to start at the euros. 1 or 2 could be, but we're going to need to rely on at least one of Hummels / Rüdiger / Süle / Tah...even if Nico can shake off his NT-curse / Thiaw takes another step...and Can, Andrich, or Khedira will (almost certainly) still be our best option for a holding 6.

Whereas at other positions we are so deep that we could send a B-team that was good enough to make the knockouts...Havertz - Goretzka - Kimmich - Brandt + Hofmann/Gnabry/Adeyemi...so leaving them on the bench for much less talented players feels wasteful & lazy.



Plus I was genuinely intrigued by how Leon did at CB when forced to fill in at that spot for Bayern and unable to push forward like he does from the midfield, so I'm curious to see more of him at that spot in general...especially as age starts to sap him of his mobility.

Leon's a good athlete but he doesn't have the straight line speed of a Sane or Süle to race back, so when he pushes forward he can't help when the team gets caught out...but when he's sitting back he can be a good counter-breaker with excellent pressing resistance & distribution.

So I can envision a Schlotterbeck/Thiaw - Hummels/Rüdiger/Süle - Goretzka back 3...with Henrichs or Kimmich as the defensive FB to make it officially a lopsided back 4, and Can / Khedira at the 6...being our best bet to give that front 5 the support they deserve.



Hopefully by the WM we can just roll with Henrichs/Raum - Schlotterbeck - Thiaw - Morgalla/ABK + Martel/Dardai in between MAtS and the attacking quintet, but our kids still have a ways to go for that to be viable.

 

[cgf]

Gundogan was useless passenger in the midfield, I don't understand how can he be the captain with this side. Notable support for Turkey from the crowd was to be expected, but even so, it was more like a home match for Turkey.

Ilkay and Kimmich seemed to get in each others way yesterday, but Gundogan had been fantastic when paired with a more holding partner, who focused more on moving the ball quickly and let Ilkay be the one to drive the play forward most of the time.

Even in this match we had a number of transitions that only got around the Turkish press because Gundo was able to slickly carry or pass the ball forward...even though, again, he was much less influential than he had been in previous matches. Especially in the final third.


As for the support, that'll likely happen on Tuesday too. There are so many games now a days that seeing a NT friendly at home isn't that exciting, but for all of the turks, poles, austrians, belgians, swiss, and dutch...or people with those roots...living in Germany, they don't get to see their team as often, so they usually show out.

The German support should be much louder at the euros...especially if the team can build on its strong play in Qatar with some better results...but I also wouldn't be shocked if a Germany-Turkey match in Berlin saw massive Turkish support; even at a major tourney.

 

[cgf]

The double pivot isn't an issue necessarily, it's that Gundogan/Kimmich are an ineffective double-pivot for shielding the poor defense and slow the game down way too much in attack. It's been much more effective when pairing Gundogan with Groß or Goretzka--even Andrich would be fine, players that aren't going to dwell on the ball.

Again I don't disagree with you that the double pivot would work a lot better if Martel were in his prime and starting next to Ilkay...and until then someone like Can or Khedira was holding the fort...I was just saying that Kimmich-Gundogan's defense wasn't really a problem for us in the half that I watched. It was the CBs behind them that caused anxiety.

Although yes, ideally we would pair Gundo with Can / Khedira / Andrich / Groß in front of the defense. And if we wanted to start both Kimmich and Gundogan regularly, Josh would need to be in the backline...at FB, or maybe even in the back 3 like he once did for Pep and JN just tried with Henrichs:

Option 1
Füllkrug
Havertz/Brandt - Wirtz - Sane/Brandt
Gundogan - Groß/Andrich
Henrichs - Hummels - Rüdiger/Süle - Kimmich
Trapp

Option 2
Füllkrug
Sane/Havertz/Brandt - Wirtz
Raum/Havertz - Gundogan - Groß/Andrich - Henrichs/Sane
Kimmich - Hummels/Rüdiger - Rüdiger/Süle/Henrichs
Trapp​

...or that pair would need to be the front two of a midfield triangle, with a holding 6 behind them:

Option 3
Sane/Havertz/Brandt - Füllkrug - Wirtz
Kimmich - Gundogan
Andrich/Groß
Raum/Henrichs - Hummels - Rüdiger/Süle - Henrichs/Süle
Trapp
​

But the only one of those options that I think could supplant our current main shape is option 1...the 4-2-3-1 with Henrichs & Kimmich at FB, and more of a Kramer-type next to Ilkay. So that's the experiment I think it would be most useful for JN to try next.

...although I can't help but be curious to see how option 2 would work with Sane & Havertz on the flanks plus Henrichs & Kimmich in the back 3. At least when facing teams like Japan & Mexico; who attack with speed on the break. Against teams spearheaded by a big, mobile, and talented 9, you'd want 2 CBs + 1 FB instead of 2 FBs + 1 CB in the back 3.

Wirtz - Füllkrug - Brandt/Sane
Havertz - Gundogan - Andrich - Sane/Gnabry
Henrichs - Hummels/Rüdiger - Kimmich
Trapp​

 

[Power Man]

We beat Mozambique 2-0 on the road, but we should have lost 4-2

Belmadi is losing the plot

 

[Savant]

International Break things

 

[Corto]

Brazil looking pretty bad...CONMEBOL qualifying is a long process but they need to start getting some better results soon

7/10 qualify. It went from one of the hardest qualifying groups where 4/10 teams went through to 70% of nations involved qualifying.
Brazil and Argentina are NEVER not qualifying.

-snip-

I am so curious to see how this team lines up.

Füllkrug; Sane, Havertz, Wirtz, Brandt; Gundogan, Kimmich, Henrichs; Rüdiger, & Tah.

4-1-4-1 with Henrichs, Ilkay, & Kimmich linking the CBs to the front 5? Back 3 with Kimmich or Henrichs as an outside FB and the other at WB opposite Brandt/Sane?

What happened with Schlotterback? Does Nagelsmann mean to play Hummels over him?

 

[cgf]

7/10 qualify. It went from one of the hardest qualifying groups where 4/10 teams went through to 70% of nations involved qualifying.
Brazil and Argentina are NEVER not qualifying.

-snip-

What happened with Schlotterback? Does Nagelsmann mean to play Hummels over him?

Nagelsmann hasn't used Schlotterbeck yet, although he has been excellent for BVB this season. Dunno if that's to let Nico build up his confidence before taking another run at the NT...as he has had just terrible luck in the NT kit...or because it's easier for JN to leave him out while he sorts through our other options.

Also don't think Hummels and Nico are competitors, as even if JN trusted Schlotterbeck and Thiaw to start, he'd probably want a vet like Mats or Rüdi to be the 3rd CB.

EDIT:
But right now it's really hard to predict what our best 11 will be. The front 5 are pretty clearcut; Füllkrug, Musiala, Wirtz, Sane, & Gundogan...with Havertz, Brandt, Kimmich, & Goretzka / Hofmann / Gnabry / Adeyemi coming off the bench...but the other 5 spots could go a number of different ways.

...although Can should probably have the 6 spot locked up, at least until Martel takes it from him, as long as Emre's fit....

The FB spot will probably go to Gosens, Raum, or Henrichs. And, I expect Süle to start with Hummels (or Rüdiger), but that third CB spot could go to any of Thiaw / Schlotterbeck / Rüdiger / Tah, or even a wildcard like Kimmich / Henrichs / Goretzka / Groß.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

7/10 qualify. It went from one of the hardest qualifying groups where 4/10 teams went through to 70% of nations involved qualifying.
Brazil and Argentina are NEVER not qualifying.

-snip-

What happened with Schlotterback? Does Nagelsmann mean to play Hummels over him?

Schlotterbeck has been absolutely awful for the NT. Fortunately for him, Süle and Thiaw haven't been much better, and Hummels and Tah haven't been much better than them, so he'll get a shot again at some point. If Nagelsmann continues playing with a Gundogan/Kimmich midfield though, and attacking-minded wingbacks, it's not going to matter much what mix of CBs is back there.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

Boys putting up another disaster class today. Sané getting sent off not helping, but don't think the result was coming regardless.