World Cup: National Team threads #2

[Evilo]

Not a good choice for JN IMO.
He's a young coach who should focus on club and day to day football.
He's got nothing to win here except if Germany wins something which is highly doubtful.

Van Gaal among the favourites is hilarious though.

 

[cgf]

Not a good choice for JN IMO.
He's a young coach who should focus on club and day to day football.
He's got nothing to win here except if Germany wins something which is highly doubtful.

Van Gaal among the favourites is hilarious though.

Tbf the team didn't end up with the best xG after the groups stages in Qatar by accident, there is a lot of talent in some spots...i.e. we could send three sets of wingers / wide-forwards / creative-midfielders with the quality to qualify for the knockout stages.

So if JN can sort out the defense to re-inspire the group...Süle's best football has come under JN...and key pieces in the spots where we have less talent (read: 9 / 6 / FB / CB) are fit, they could do something like 2006.

...and if he did get the balance right, while things went our way, who knows what they could accomplish? It's not like Italy had tons more talent when they won in 2021; especially if Nagelsmann can get Süle playing his best football again

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Lots of ifs.

 

[Evilo]

Tbf the team didn't end up with the best xG after the groups stages in Qatar by accident, there is a lot of talent in some spots...i.e. we could send three sets of wingers / wide-forwards / creative-midfielders with the quality to qualify for the knockout stages.

So if JN can sort out the defense to re-inspire the group...Süle's best football has come under JN...and key pieces in the spots where we have less talent (read: 9 / 6 / FB / CB) are fit, they could do something like 2006.

...and if he did get the balance right, while things went our way, who knows what they could accomplish? It's not like Italy had tons more talent when they won in 2021; especially if Nagelsmann can get Süle playing his best football again

As I told you before the WC, during the WC and since the WC, your defense is in shambles and you can't win much with a guy like Sule as starter.
Italy had a midfield Germany can't match. And were solid at the back.
Germany only has talented forwards and wingers. And even them have trouble being efficient.

 

[al secord]

Argentina called up both their qualifier squad and the Olympic team Shame Barco is injured. He probably could start for the senior team already. At least part take.

Enzo playing in his 7th match for Argentina.... That's insane.

Would Barco have been selected if not for the injury?

Was it a sure thing?

 

[East Coast Bias]

Shameless grubby bastards

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Would Barco have been selected if not for the injury?

Was it a sure thing?

I think it was a good bet. He for sure would've been included in the Olympic team. Personally I think he's good enough to help the NT. However, there was no talk bringing him up.

 

[cgf]

Lots of ifs.

Well duh. Going from being eliminated in the group stages to the semifinals/finals takes a couple of things going differently.

Although if you want to play the pedant, it's not that many if's. It's getting the defense/balance sorted, which is one big as if, and health. So it's just two if's :-p

 

[cgf]

As I told you before the WC, during the WC and since the WC, your defense is in shambles and you can't win much with a guy like Sule as starter.
Italy had a midfield Germany can't match. And were solid at the back.
Germany only has talented forwards and wingers. And even them have trouble being efficient.

The defense is a mess, but I'll call BS. Süle's good enough to win the CL but not the euros? Really? Mind you I think Süle and Rüdiger should both be replaced...especially with how lackadaisical they've been over the past 12 months...but teams have medaled with far worse CBs.

And if you're going to claim that Musiala, Wirtz, Kimmich, Gundogan, Goretzka, etc., don't match Veratti, Barella, Jorginho, Locatelli, Cristante, etc.; then all I can do is shrug.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Well duh. Going from being eliminated in the group stages to the semifinals takes a couple of things going differently.

Although if you want to play the pedant, it's not that many if's. It's getting the defense/balance sorted, which is one big as if, and health. So it's just two if's :-p

It just doesn't seem realistic tbh. Flick was supposed to be the wonder coach to dismantle the old Low's thinking... now its young JN. The issue is a lack of talent as much as coaching. Germany has too many weak players in key positions. A good coach can mask some issues but not fundamental ones. They cant defend at the moment nor can they score.

 

[cgf]

It just doesn't seem realistic tbh. Flick was supposed to be the wonder coach to dismantle the old Low's thinking... now its young JN. The issue is a lack of talent as much as coaching. Germany has too many weak players in key positions. A good coach can mask some issues but not fundamental ones. They cant defend at the moment nor can they score.

Again, duh. Nobody is saying it's likely lol.

Evilo was just speaking in absolutes, like he does, and I was just pointing out how silly that is in this sport.

EDIT:
Although plenty of teams with less defensive talent manage not to leak goals like we have been, so I'll call BS on our defense just not being talented enough for us to make it out of the group stages.

It's not like we're starting Harry Maguire.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

It just doesn't seem realistic tbh. Flick was supposed to be the wonder coach to dismantle the old Low's thinking... now its young JN. The issue is a lack of talent as much as coaching. Germany has too many weak players in key positions. A good coach can mask some issues but not fundamental ones. They cant defend at the moment nor can they score.

They are like a parody of the Spanish tiki-taka with all that pointless possession leading to nothing while also leaving them wide open to counterattacks (which they can't defend). They have talent, but it's too much of the same type (highly technical possession players) and not enough of anything else.

I don't think JN fixes this either. Bring in a more complicated scheme with only 8 months and a handful of games to get it right? And he couldn't really handle the Bayern personalities and egos, the NT isn't going to be much different in that regard.

Oh, and JN also runs false 9s so we'd probably still be stuck with f***ing Havertz in the lineup...please no on that point alone.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

It just doesn't seem realistic tbh. Flick was supposed to be the wonder coach to dismantle the old Low's thinking... now its young JN. The issue is a lack of talent as much as coaching. Germany has too many weak players in key positions. A good coach can mask some issues but not fundamental ones. They cant defend at the moment nor can they score.

Flick was Löw's assistant and basically has the exact same football principles. He was never going to be a 'fresh start'. People put some hope into him because of Bayern's CL win but that was a very different situation obviously. His appointment was an expression of the sentiment that Germany just needed a slight redirection rather than a teardown and rebuild. It's different now.

I don't think the issue is talent overall fwiw. I think the talent is unevenly distributed, but it's not like there's Malta or Luxemburg level players at the worse positions. If you look at some of the guys that Klopp had massive success with at Liverpool, they looked awful and out of their depth under previous Liverpool managers. Did they magically become good or did Klopp simply know how to get the best out of them?

A good manager doesn't need world class at every position to advance from a World Cup group. Hell, you can make it pretty far in a tournament with serious question marks. Just looking at that 2022 Argentina team, it's hardly a dream team.

 

[Evilo]

The defense is a mess, but I'll call BS. Süle's good enough to win the CL but not the euros? Really? Mind you I think Süle and Rüdiger should both be replaced...especially with how lackadaisical they've been over the past 12 months...but teams have medaled with far worse CBs.

And if you're going to claim that Musiala, Wirtz, Kimmich, Gundogan, Goretzka, etc., don't match Veratti, Barella, Jorginho, Locatelli, Cristante, etc.; then all I can do is shrug.

Shrug all you want. You named offensive midfielders I named midfielders.
Italy's midfield was unstoppable that Euro.

Oh and I said you wouldn't WIN with Sule. Now it's going out of the groups. Someone's moving the goalposts again.

 

[Bures Elbow]

Martinez proves that just when you think things get any worse in life, they do.

We are playing worse under him than with Santos, absolutely dreadful play and we continue to reply individual moments of brilliance coupled with luck.

We’re lucky Portugal is in the easiest qualifying group they’ve ever had. We will get smashed by the first average team we play in the Euros.

 

[Corto]

Flick was Löw's assistant and basically has the exact same football principles. He was never going to be a 'fresh start'. People put some hope into him because of Bayern's CL win but that was a very different situation obviously. His appointment was an expression of the sentiment that Germany just needed a slight redirection rather than a teardown and rebuild. It's different now.

I don't think the issue is talent overall fwiw. I think the talent is unevenly distributed, but it's not like there's Malta or Luxemburg level players at the worse positions. If you look at some of the guys that Klopp had massive success with at Liverpool, they looked awful and out of their depth under previous Liverpool managers. Did they magically become good or did Klopp simply know how to get the best out of them?

There's a massive difference between coaching a club and a national team.
System managers like Klopp really don't work in national teams, there's just no time to implement the system, nor can you buy specific players to thrive in it.

A national team managers needs to do 3 things:
- basic system and good in-game management
- be great at man management and motivation
- create basically a cult around the national team

If you don't have the players to do a 4-3-3 high press, but a counter-attacking 3-5-2, you do that.

etc etc

TLDR; Klopp comparison is off the mark IMO.

 

[Power Man]

Rubiales resigned

 

[Albatros]

The defense is a mess, but I'll call BS. Süle's good enough to win the CL but not the euros? Really? Mind you I think Süle and Rüdiger should both be replaced...especially with how lackadaisical they've been over the past 12 months...but teams have medaled with far worse CBs.

And if you're going to claim that Musiala, Wirtz, Kimmich, Gundogan, Goretzka, etc., don't match Veratti, Barella, Jorginho, Locatelli, Cristante, etc.; then all I can do is shrug.

It's not about any particular players in defense as much as it is about not committing to any particular players in defense. Süle has played this one match after the World Cup. Wasn't very good at either to be sure, but also not why the team has been performing awfully as a whole. He and many others can be useful complementary pieces when the team as a whole functions coherently, but that will never happen with a pack of strangers where everyone does their thing and in the end nothing works.

 

[Corto]

Rubiales resigned

Oh no....

Anyway....

 

[cgf]

Shrug all you want. You named offensive midfielders I named midfielders.
Italy's midfield was unstoppable that Euro.

Oh and I said you wouldn't WIN with Sule. Now it's going out of the groups. Someone's moving the goalposts again.

You said we only have wingers and forwards but no midfielders. Now you’re saying I listed the wrong kind of midfielders…who’s moving the goalposts?

And I’m just contesting your claim that JN has nothing to gain from taking the job. If he gets us back to the QF/SFs he’ll have helped his rep.

 

[Evilo]

You said we only have wingers and forwards but no midfielders. Now you’re saying I listed the wrong kind of midfielders…who’s moving the goalposts?

And I’m just contesting your claim that JN has nothing to gain from taking the job. If he gets us back to the QF/SFs he’ll have helped his rep.

I said this : "Italy had a midfield Germany can't match".
So yeah, you're moving the goalposts AGAIN.

No he won't help his reputation reaching a QF with Germany. Not a top coach job.
Only if he reaches a final does he prove he's one of the best coaches in the business.
IMO he has everything to lose by joining them.

Mind you, you expected Flick to change everything after Jogi and lead them to glory. Turns out he made them worse. He, too, hurt his reputation after his glorious Bayern job.

 

[Evilo]

There's a massive difference between coaching a club and a national team.
System managers like Klopp really don't work in national teams, there's just no time to implement the system, nor can you buy specific players to thrive in it.

A national team managers needs to do 3 things:
- basic system and good in-game management
- be great at man management and motivation
- create basically a cult around the national team

If you don't have the players to do a 4-3-3 high press, but a counter-attacking 3-5-2, you do that.

etc etc

TLDR; Klopp comparison is off the mark IMO.

Basically yes. You need a big personnality with some tacs in him, but most of all a strong connection and authority on the players.
Which is why I laugh when people expect a Guardiola type of managing for France. I want someone strong enough to avoid players playing for themselves instead of for the team (like Germany right now).
A NT manager doesn't have the team the full year with him. He needs to pick the right players (not always the best ones BTW) and start the right guys with the right formation with the right tacs.
But he has way less control compared to club management.
I'm far from agreeing with DD on multiple things (Disasi and Pavard on the NT, not working on penalty shootouts, not picking some talented guys because they're unproven except if they play abroad or at OM, etc...). But he ticks most boxes.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Shameless grubby bastards

Where's Evilo's outrage here like with African nations?

 

[Evilo]

Where's Evilo's outrage here like with African nations?

You do realize Ferguson is born in Ireland, learnt part of his football in Ireland and is is no way comparable to a player born in a country, who learnt football in this country, who represented France for every single youth categories and who chooses to play for a country he spent a few weeks of holidays when younger while being pressured by federations who propose money, cars etc...?

If OTOH, you're talking about England acting like shit, I think that's nothing new. But when they start proposing cars, money, trying to convince poor people when their son is 14 years old, then it's a major problem. That you can't seem to ackowledge (and I included Spain and Portugal, which to my knowledge, aren't in Africa).

 

[Spring in Fialta]

You do realize Ferguson is born in Ireland, learnt part of his football in Ireland and is is no way comparable to a player born in a country, who learnt football in this country, who represented France for every single youth categories and who chooses to play for a country he spent a few weeks of holidays when younger while being pressured by federations who propose money, cars etc...?

If OTOH, you're talking about England acting like shit, I think that's nothing new. But when they start proposing cars, money, trying to convince poor people when their son is 14 years old, then it's a major problem. That you can't seem to ackowledge (and I included Spain and Portugal, which to my knowledge, aren't in Africa).

Bla bla bla. Nothing more than chickentalk.

Binationals (players that France have access to partially because of its colonial past) have every right to pick the country of their choosing and only a fool would think that because they were born and raised in another means that they don't have equal (or more or less) attachment/preference for the country of their parents. As if France doesn't pitch the advantage of being a part of FFF to the career of players (famously Benzema who said he felt nothing for France in his heart and that playing for France was strictly a sporting decision and refused to sing La Marseillaise). And as if there's anything wrong with players leveraging their talents for perks.