Confirmed Trade: [MTL/CBJ] Patrik Laine, '26 2nd for Jordan Harris

[Michel Beauchamp]

Well, with kirby dach, since every single ounce of his production comes from the PP it's pretty significant.

16 pts out of 38 is every single ounce of his production ?

And being good on the PP is a bad thing ?

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Yep, slightly off.

You underestimate how much teams pay for Cotter type assets, as did I

See: 3.5 mill for Yakov Trenin and a high 2nd for Beck Malenstyn.

775k for 2 years + RFA control is also dirt cheap

If by slightly you mean completely missed the mark... . Then yeah.

Holtz for a 4th line forward. lol Go ahead and double down on how you think you were still right on your valuation.

My valuation of Holtz as a poor man's Toffoli and a bust was spot on eh?

 

[dgibb10]

Are you serious. He barely played with Suzuki and Caufield. And when he did he was almost a ppg.

He played 400 minutes with each of them 5v5, making them his most common linemates by far.

In that time he put up 4 goals and 10 points alongside them. or a points/60 of 1.5, good for 280th in the league that year

He produced well on the power play (which he will likely no longer be on thanks to the addition of Patrick Laine).

If by slightly you mean completely missed the mark... . Then yeah.

Holtz for a 4th line forward. lol Go ahead and double down on how you think you were still right on your valuation.

My valuation of Holtz as a poor man's Toffoli and a bust was spot on eh?

If Cotter is a 4th line forward what does it say that he produces better than kirby dach?

 

[Junohockeyfan]

If Cotter is a 4th line forward what does it say that he produces better than kirby dach?

Kirby Dach: 38pts in 58 games
Paul Cotter: 18pts in 55games

It says that you don't know how to count. Kirby out produced Cotter in total points. You can't just cherry pick which points you like best.

But i am still trying to comprehend how Holtz,a guy you valued at 20th overall netted a 4th line forward. Care to explain how you fell so short? Since you are incapable of admitting when you are wrong?

 

[dgibb10]

Kirby Dach: 38pts in 58 games
Paul Cotter: 25pts in 76 games

It says that you don't know how to count. Kirby out produced Cotter in the

But i am still trying to comprehend how Holtz,a guy you valued at 20th overall netted a 4th line forward.

18 points 5v5 in 800 minutes for Dach in 22-23
18 points 5v5 in 600 minutes for cotter in 22-23

Dach better figure it out 5v5 because his PP spot is GONE.

 

[Baksfamous112]

I bet Blake thought the same way with PLD too, and now McLellan. Good luck to you guys. I like your team, hope Suzuki rewards you guys with his leadership.

PLD carried a 8 years deal with him. Laine is 2 and done if it doesn’t work out. PLD also cost 3 premium assets to Blake while Laine was attached with a 2nd round pick. Totally different scenarios.

Damn shame that kirby dach is unable to outproduce a "dime a dozen 4th liner" despite playing alongside Nick Suzuki and Cole CaufieldView attachment 902465

Are you really comparing Dach to Cotter here? Really?

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

I made a fool out of myself in the post you quoted where I explained to an MTL fan how LTIR and accrued cap space worked?

Because it seems like a concerning number of MTL fans don't know how it works, along with bonus overages


The number 1 and 2 ranked teams in these advanced stats you hate so much met up in the cup final btw

Advanced stats = the Emperor's new clothes (or magic beans).

 

[Junohockeyfan]

PLD carried a 8 years deal with him. Laine is 2 and done if it doesn’t work out. PLD also cost 3 premium assets to Blake while Laine was attached with a 2nd round pick. Totally different scenarios.

Are you really comparing Dach to Cotter here? Really?

Yep he is. Trying to get the ire of Habs fans as always. No point debating it further when it devolves into stupidity like Cotter > Dach. lol

 

[NikolaTesla]

He played 400 minutes with each of them 5v5, making them his most common linemates by far.

In that time he put up 4 goals and 10 points alongside them. or a points/60 of 1.5, good for 280th in the league that year

He produced well on the power play (which he will likely no longer be on thanks to the addition of Patrick Laine).


If Cotter is a 4th line forward what does it say that he produces better than kirby dach?

You said it, he produced well on the powerplay but apparently that doesnt count. I just love lil statistics whore cherry picking what they want to suit their agenda.

 

[dgibb10]

PLD carried a 8 years deal with him. Laine is 2 and done if it doesn’t work out. PLD also cost 3 premium assets to Blake while Laine was attached with a 2nd round pick. Totally different scenarios.

Are you really comparing Dach to Cotter here? Really?

If Dach wants to be compared to better players he needs to crack 20 points 5v5 in a season

I know it's hard, only been done 1102 different times since Dach entered the league. But one day he will get there I'm sure.

 

[Baksfamous112]

18 points 5v5 in 800 minutes for Dach in 22-23
18 points 5v5 in 600 minutes for cotter in 22-23

Dach better figure it out 5v5 because his PP spot is GONE.

16 points 5v5 in 1360 minutes for Hughes in 23-34
19 points 5v5 in 1228 minutes for Guhle in 23-24

Hughes better figure it out 5v5 because his PP spot is GONE with Hamilton back.

If Hughes wants to be compared to better players he needs to crack 20 points 5v5 in a season. I know it's hard, only been done 1102 different times since Hughes entered the league. But one day he will get there I'm sure.

 

[NikolaTesla]

18 points 5v5 in 800 minutes for Dach in 22-23
18 points 5v5 in 600 minutes for cotter in 22-23

Dach better figure it out 5v5 because his PP spot is GONE.

And i guarantee that if Dach produced more at 5v5 at the detriment of his power play, you would use the pp statistic instead. 100% Guaranteed because you're a cherry picking statistic whore.

"OH look those stats sure as hell doesnt fit my agenda, let me look at those filters.... There we go! I found the correct filter: that player is only 126th in the league at 5v5 during full moons. f***ing pathetic!"

 

[Baksfamous112]

Yep he is. Trying to get the ire of Habs fans as always. No point debating it further when it devolves into stupidity like Cotter > Dach. lol

It’s ok. Cotton > Dach and Guhle >> Hughes.

Case close.

 

[dgibb10]

16 points 5v5 in 1360 minutes for Hughes in 23-34
19 points 5v5 in 1228 minutes for Guhle in 23-24

Hughes better figure it out 5v5 because his PP spot is GONE with Hamilton back.

I notice you didn't go to a forward. Why is that. Is it perhaps because the only guy you could find on NJDs roster that didn't surpass 20 points 5v5 last year is Nathan Bastian?

 

[Baksfamous112]

I notice you didn't go to a forward. Why is that. Is it perhaps because the only guy you could find on NJDs roster that didn't surpass 20 points 5v5 last year is Nathan Bastian?

Yeah you guys had such a high end group. of forwards that you finished second to last in the Metropolitan.

It’s ok though, I see that you have no issues calling Guhle a superior player to Hughes which is basically a bottom pairing D and PP specialist at this point which I also agree with.

I still have faith in him. Maybe he’ll become something more eventually.

 

[dgibb10]

And i guarantee that if Dach produced more at 5v5 at the detriment of his power play, you would use the pp statistic instead. 100% Guaranteed because you're a cherry picking statistic whore.

"OH look those stats sure as hell doesnt fit my agenda, let me look at those filters.... There we go! I found the correct filter: that player is only 126th in the league at 5v5 during full moons. f***ing pathetic!"

I value players in each category seperately.

Produced well is a relative term. He didn't exactly lead a high level PP, which generated chances at about the same rate whether you swapped in Monahan, Dach, Newhook, Slafkofsky, etc.

I also don't view him as one of the engines of the PP (Matheson, Caufield, Suzuki).

I do give him credit for being an effective PP weapon tho.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

Nobody is saying they won't be able to ice a compliant roster.

I am saying that, because they will be using LTIR throughout the season, they will not accrue cap space, meaning any ELC bonuses earned by Slaf, Hutson, or Guhle will rollover and count on the 25-26 cap. Just like how last years ELC bonuses are on this years cap for MTL. This may come into play when they try and contend again in 25-26, or 26-27 (assuming the same scenario with using price LTIR occurs again in the last year of prices deal)

Did you fail to read the 2nd and 5th paragraph of the post you quoted ?

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Yeah you guys had such a high end group. of forwards that you finished second to last in the Metropolitan.

It’s ok though, I see that you have no issues calling Guhle a superior player to Hughes which is basically a bottom pairing D and PP specialist at this point which I also agree with.

I still have faith in him. Maybe he’ll become something more eventually.

Hughes needs to learn to play defense before anyone can take him seriously. Nemec also struggled mightily but was rushed to the NHL. When you have those guys who were not ready and shoddy on your defense and poor goaltending, you will miss the playoffs. As is what happened to the lowly NJD.

 

[dgibb10]

Yeah you guys had such a high end group. of forwards that you finished second to last in the Metropolitan.

It’s ok though, I see that you have no issues calling Guhle a superior player to Hughes which is basically a bottom pairing D and PP specialist at this point which I also agree with.

I still have faith in him. Maybe he’ll become something more eventually.

Luke Hughes was in fact 100% a PP merchant last year in terms of his point totals.

And yes, Guhle was a better 5v5 player than Hughes last year. The ridiculously tough matchups he played to put up a 47.4% xGoals share is very impressive.

But in case you were wondering, individual point generation is not nearly as important for dman as it is forwards.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Luke Hughes was in fact 100% a PP merchant last year in terms of his point totals.

And yes, Guhle was a better 5v5 player than Hughes last year. The ridiculously tough matchups he played to put up a 47.4% xGoals share is very impressive.

But in case you were wondering, individual point generation is not nearly as important for dman as it is forwards.

Individual point generation is important when you are a one-dimensional dman like Luke Hughes.

 

[dgibb10]

Hughes needs to learn to play defense before anyone can take him seriously. Nemec also struggled mightily but was rushed to the NHL. When you have those guys who were not ready and shoddy on your defense and poor goaltending, you will miss the playoffs. As is what happened to the lowly NJD.

Nemec and Hughes both had better xGoals share than any MTL dman since their cup run btw.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Nemec and Hughes both had better xGoals share than any MTL dman since their cup run btw.

Nemec and Hughes shoddy D were key reasons why the NJD's trash defense cost them them to miss the playoffs last season. Although it wasn't their fault as they were rushed. Hopefully they won't bust like Holtz.

Meanwhile, back to Laine! What a brilliant bit of GMing by Hughes!

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

Yes, and I agree it's a good move.

What I don't agree with is claims that this is risk free, or claims that it is some genius move (every bad team does this in one way or another).

I don't believe that GMs should be exempt from criticism for failed moves just because they are rebuilding, which seems to be the claim a lot of posters here seem to be making. This applies to both contracts and trades.

Too often I see "it doesn't matter that *insert GM* signed *insert dogshit contract* because that player won't be here when we're contending"

"Look at my daughter/son. She/he is the only one with the right step in the whole parade."

 

[dgibb10]

Nemec and Hughes shoddy D were key reasons why the NJD's trash defense cost them them to miss the playoffs last season. Although it wasn't their fault as they were rushed. Hopefully they won't bust like Holtz.

Meanwhile, back to Laine! What a brilliant bit of GMing!

Siegenthaler, Smith, and Marino were the ones getting caved in but sure.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Siegenthaler, Smith, and Marino were the ones getting caved in but sure.

They all got caved. One of the worst D-corps in the league last season. Which is disappointing given the high hopes of the NJD at season start. lol

I think Rempe demoralized them all with his ragdolling.. That was tough to watch.