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Value of: MTL-BUF

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Mattilaus

Mattilaus

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Sep 12, 2014
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samsagat said:
Come on, don't be of bad faith.

They scored more because they have way more depth in offense.
That means way better linemates for Cozens.

Saying that Cozens is WAY better than Dach when both are 21 is risky business. Things can change quickly at that age.

Dach and Cozens have similar potential roof, Dach is just slower in his development.
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Would love for you to quote any time I have said Cozens is "WAY" better than Dach. I have said Cozens is better, which he is and that he has more trade value, which he does.

Additionally Cozens played the vast majority of his year with two rookies who accumulated a whopping 35 points each. I am sorry but you won't be able to convince me that he was the benefactor of his line mates and not the driver of his line.

Maybe instead of trying to convince me I shouldn't say something I didn't say or that I have evaluated Cozens impact on his linemates incorrectly, you should quote and address the people who are saying Dach has more value than cozens, which is ridiculous at this point. But you didn't do that, instead you quoted me to exaggerate what I said or nitpick small points.
 
samsagat

samsagat

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Jun 20, 2013
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Mattilaus said:
Would love for you to quote any time I have said Cozens is "WAY" better than Dach. I have said Cozens is better, which he is and that he has more trade value, which he does.

Additionally Cozens played the vast majority of his year with two rookies who accumulated a whopping 35 points each. I am sorry but you won't be able to convince me that he was the benefactor of his line mates and not the driver of his line.

Maybe instead of trying to convince me I shouldn't say something I didn't say or that I have evaluated Cozens impact on his linemates incorrectly, you should quote and address the people who are saying Dach has more value than cozens, which is ridiculous at this point. But you didn't do that, instead you quoted me to exaggerate what I said or nitpick small points.
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Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I was referencing you being of bad faith when you were saying that Buffalo was scoring more BECAUSE Cozens scored 30 something goals. Not about your evaluation of Dach value.

When, afaic, Buffalo scored more than MTL because they have way more depth in talent and in the scoring department, which incidentally have helped Cozens score more because he was surrounded by better players...

But at the end of the day that doesn't take anything from Cozens, because he IS a great young player and his points are no flukes.
 
Mattilaus

Mattilaus

Registered User
Sep 12, 2014
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samsagat said:
Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I was referencing you being of bad faith when you were saying that Buffalo was scoring more BECAUSE Cozens scored 30 something goals. Not about your evaluation of Dach value.

When, afaic, Buffalo scored more than MTL because they have way more depth in talent and in the scoring department, which incidentally have helped Cozens score more because he was surrounded by better players...

But at the end of the day that doesn't take anything from Cozens, because he IS a great young player and his points are no flukes.
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And again, his linemates were two rookies, who got 35 points. So you are trying to convince me, that Cozens, who got nearly 70 points, scored more because he was dragging two 35 point rookies around. It's a ridiculous assertion that isn't backed up by the stats. Just something you are making up to try and win the argument. The Sabres have good players, yes and Cozens is one of those good players. Without him the team scores less.

Who exactly were Dach's most common linemates last year and how many points did they have? I am pretty sure for a spell he had a recent 1st overall pick as his winger didn't he? You are telling me Dach didn't benefit from the 1st overall rookie on his wing but Cozens was only good because he had rookie 2nd rounder JJ peterka on his wing? Get real here.
 
samsagat

samsagat

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Jun 20, 2013
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843
Mattilaus said:
And again, his linemates were two rookies, who got 35 points. So you are trying to convince me, that Cozens, who got nearly 70 points, scored more because he was dragging two 35 point rookies around. It's a ridiculous assertion that isn't backed up by the stats. Just something you are making up to try and win the argument. The Sabres have good players, yes and Cozens is one of those good players. Without him the team scores less.

Who exactly were Dach's most common linemates last year and how many points did they have? I am pretty sure for a spell he had a recent 1st overall pick as his winger didn't he? You are telling me Dach didn't benefit from the 1st overall rookie on his wing but Cozens was only good because he had rookie 2nd rounder JJ peterka on his wing? Get real here.
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I don't know what you're trying to do here, but I've never said that Dach was better than Cozens (as of now). And I never said that Cozens was cruising on his linemates to get his points.

BUT, there's no Dahlin in MTL, our PP is abysmal, the team is abysmal (particularly in terms of forwards = no depth) and we had an historically injury ridden season last year.

My point was that Buffalo is way better offensively and it's why they scored a lot more goals.

And yes, Dach had a lot of Anderson/Ylonen/RHP/Pitlick/Hoffman/etc.. on his wings. Apart from his brief stint with Suzuki/Caufield.

And you are the one who's trying to win an argument here, I'm just discussing, no ego concerned as far as I'm concerned. You're the one insisting on doing a pissing match.

I'm here to discuss hockey on good faith, not winning verbal confrontations.
 
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Mattilaus

Mattilaus

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Sep 12, 2014
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Beyond the Wall
samsagat said:
I don't know what you're trying to do here, but I've never said that Dach was better than Cozens (as of now). And I never said that Cozens was cruising on his linemates to get his points.

BUT, there's no Dahlin in MTL, our PP is abysmal, the team is abysmal (particularly in terms of forwards = no depth) and we had an historically injury ridden season last year.

My point was that Buffalo is way better offensively and it's why they scored a lot more goals.

And yes, Dach had a lot of Anderson/Ylonen/RHP/Pitlick/Hoffman/etc.. on his wings. Apart from his brief stint with Suzuki/Caufield.

And you are the one who's trying to win an argument here, I'm just discussing, no ego concerned as far as I'm concerned. You're the one insisting on doing a pissing match.

I'm here to discuss hockey on good faith, not winning verbal confrontations.
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No no no, you don't get to come in, make up stuff i said, say I am wrong when it comes to player evaluation, and then pretend like I am the one starting a pissing match. Gaslight much?

Also powerplay points? Now that is your argument for Dach? Dach had 16 ppp last season and Cozens had 18. I don't think the 2 extra powerplay points accounts for the vast difference in production. In fact, if you go on a powerplay points per game basis, it is Dach who produced more on the powerplay than Cozens.

You keep saying I am arguing in bad faith but then you keep making statements not backed up by statistical data. Look in a mirror.
 
samsagat

samsagat

Registered User
Jun 20, 2013
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843
Mattilaus said:
No no no, you don't get to come in, make up stuff i said, say I am wrong when it comes to player evaluation, and then pretend like I am the one starting a pissing match. Gaslight much?

Also powerplay points? Now that is your argument for Dach? Dach had 16 ppp last season and Cozens had 18. I don't think the 2 extra powerplay points accounts for the vast difference in production. In fact, if you go on a powerplay points per game basis, it is Dach who produced more on the powerplay than Cozens.

You keep saying I am arguing in bad faith but then you keep making statements not backed up by statistical data. Look in a mirror.
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Ok, whatever...

Discussing with you is like discussing with a wall..
 
Jared Dunn

Jared Dunn

Registered User
Dec 23, 2013
8,823
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Yellowknife
Voight said:
Debatable. Despite playing with Kane and DeBrincat he didn't produce offensively and had somewhat stagnated development wise. He was also a draft pick from the previous regime and while I'm sure Davidson wanted to keep him around, he wasn't going to turn down a lottery pick for him.

Personally I really wanted them to draft Byram and also think he should've spent his D+1 year in the WHL, wasn't ready for the NHL.
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Don't disagree with you on the Byram and D+1 bits but given A) the serious injury setbacks and B) how great he was in the bubble playoffs I'd say they pulled the chute too early and I think he's clearly demonstrating that. Different situations obviously matter but he's really impactful for Montreal even when he isn't putting up points it's just hard for me to imagine him not breaking through in Chicago
 

Jimmybarndoor2

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Jul 24, 2021
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Jared Dunn said:
Don't disagree with you on the Byram and D+1 bits but given A) the serious injury setbacks and B) how great he was in the bubble playoffs I'd say they pulled the chute too early and I think he's clearly demonstrating that. Different situations obviously matter but he's really impactful for Montreal even when he isn't putting up points it's just hard for me to imagine him not breaking through in Chicago
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Hard to disprove imagination and hopes and dreams. That is the gamble with Dach
 
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Gaud

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May 11, 2017
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Habs fan - I think Cozens is probably better than Dach, but the difference between the two is not Caufield. Major overpayment IMO
 
samsagat

samsagat

Registered User
Jun 20, 2013
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843
Mattilaus said:
Funny, I was just thinking the same thing. It doesn't matter what stats or facts I have, you don't care, you've already decided your position and it isn't going to change.
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You don't even read what I say and rewrite my narrative in order to bring it down...

Let me remember you the course of our written exchange:

1- somebody said Buffalo scored +/- 100 goals more than MTL

2- you answered that if they scored more goals, to take your own words:" Yes, They scored a lot more, due in large part to the 30 goals cozens scored"...

3- to that, I answered "don't be of bad faith" because for me, making Cozens 30 goals being "a large part" of the fact Buffalo scored more than Habs is ignoring Thompson 94 pts, Skinner 82 pts, Tuch 79 pts, Dahlin 73 pts, etc... That Buffalo scored more goals because, at the end of the day, they have more offensive power... That's it...

4- then you came back to me saying the "bad faith" thing was about the comparison between Dach and Cozens (which I actually admitted in another message he was actually superior to Caufield AND Dach, but that all of them were young and things can change).

5- I politely apologized for the misunderstanding, explaining you were misinterpreting my topic. That the bad faith thing was about the reason you gave for Buffalo scoring more than MTL...

6- but then, YOU came back to me, ignoring my previous message and continue to put words and concepts in my mouth I never bring up... Making it about me trying to prove that Dach was better than Cozens .. which I never said.

7- and then, YOU accused me of exactly doing what YOU were doing (putting words in my mouth I never said and being of bad faith), in a typical way that they call projective identification in psychology.

Sorry man, but I never said that Dach was better than Cozens, YOU made me say it in order to argue... with yourself basically.

Communication is not only about talking, it's listening (or reading) to what the other person you're (supposedly) communicating with have to say...

What you're doing is more or less masturbating/self serving communication...
 
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