Post-Game Talk: Mother's Day Massacre. Series tied 2-2

[ThrowDemTongs]

Welp it's time to start pretending to like Baseball.

I'm going to make sure I'm day drunk on Tuesday.

Honestly, I'm down. Let's do it. Let's become hardcore baseball guys.

Is Randy Johnson still playing? He had the Nascar fan/driver face I can get behind.

 

[Mess]

This was a real eye opening game as to which team performs better under pressure.

A dominating Leafs win while going up 3-1 and putting a stranglehold on the series, would have sent a clear message that this is a different Leafs team of the past that doesn't lose in big games.

 

[Zybalto]

Toronto during the regular season: 24th most penalty minutes.

Toronto in the playoffs: 1st for penalty minutes.

Seems legit.

 

[ToneDog]

This was a real eye opening game as to which team performs better under pressure.

A dominating Leafs win while going up 3-1 and putting a stranglehold on the series, would have sent a clear message that this is a different Leafs team of the past that doesn't lose in big games.

Willie afraid to go into the corner. Engvall afraid to answer to Hagel. JT doing the usual nothing when bullied. I can't believe some thought the Leafs had the forwards that could match Tampa's sandpaper. It is men against boys when it comes to toughness and playing heavy when it comes to forwards and we are starting to see it the deeper into the series. News flash to the Leaf forwards, Tampa is not going to let up.

 

[Twine Tickler]

Like I said any other player curls off at the blue line it's not even a story. It's just a player going off for a change. Nylander decides to skate a couple extra meters and suddenly it means he has to go full Gary Roberts into the boards otherwise he's soft. Exaggerating on the Gary Roberts but the point stands

Ya I mean every team seems to have a lighting rod and Willy has always seemed to be that guy for us. It's not as if that criticism at times is completely off base either. Willy, although extremely talented, can have the ability to take games off. I have always believed he is in the same category of skill as Mitch and Auston, and he absolutely has the ability to take over a game in the same capacity as them. He's shown that he can play a 200 foot game, and play with intensity, he just cannot seem to do it with consistency. Having an off day is one thing, but he is very streaky with his compete level. He'll go a whole month where he is the best player on the ice, and then follow it up with a month where he is a bystander.

We need Willy to dominate. I think the clip going viral will bring out the best in Willy going forward. It would not shock me 1 bit if he was the first star in game 5.

That loss deserved criticism top to bottom. Nobody was prepared enough. It's incredibly upsetting knowing we had a chance to really take this series by the short and curly's and we just didn't give ourselves a chance from the first minute.

I am not a huge fan of the media/fanbase making a mountain out of a mole hill either, but I really think there is a fair criticism to be had for that game. But at the end of the day, we are still very much in this series and we need to be proud of that. This group is going toe to toe with the B2B champs. Our guys need to live for these moments. I firmly believe if we are to get past R1 this year, this series will serve as a springboard to greater things. Our biggest enemy is ourselves.

 

[Mess]

Tampa is toying with us. When they need a win, they turn it up and dominate us. Will be interesting to see how much they want game 5 because they probably feel no way they lose game 6 in Tampa IMO. As such it would be all the marbles for game 7 and we/they know how the Leafs do in game 7s.

Over the past 3 playoffs including the current one TB current record is 17-0 when it comes to losing 2 games in a row, so that makes game #5 a must win for the Leafs, if that pattern holds.

However in 5 straight series/Cup deciding games Conn Smythe reigning Vasilevskiy has posted a shutout under the most pressure as he becomes unbeatable, so game #7 in this series the odds are stacked heavily against the Leafs, which includes Leafs own demons of closing out a series in the final deciding game.

One of those above things has to change for the Leafs to win the series,

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

I stream game last night and left the tab open on browser luckily. I can see back plays.

It is true Nylander was out for very long time before chasing that play. Nothing to see there stop acting like imbeciles.

 

[DraftSchmaft]

That lung test Nylander did at the combine where he finished 1st was on full display though. That little speed burst he managed at the end of his shift fully gassed before giving up for good, not many players in the league can muster that.

Realizing you are not playing at your best, so dropping a face wash on Kucherov your next shift and scoring 2 goals, what a beast turning it on.

Two can play this game.

 

[killer1980]

Besides the first 10 mins the only thing I hated was pulling the goalie with 6 mins left.

Bad decision! Psychologically, the team scored twice to make it 5-2. At that point you could say, "Ok we were bad early but did pick it up later in the game. We can build on that" All those stupid late goals just turned it into a 7-3 blowout. Any momentum gained by those 2 late goals was lost.

 

[MSZ]

This was a real eye opening game as to which team performs better under pressure.

A dominating Leafs win while going up 3-1 and putting a stranglehold on the series, would have sent a clear message that this is a different Leafs team of the past that doesn't lose in big games.

Last year when they had a 3-1 lead everyone said the same thing. "Oh this Leafs team is different."

These guys just never earn my trust until they show they do have killer instinct and win.

 

[ToneDog]

Bad decision! Psychologically, the team scored twice to make it 5-2. At that point you could say, "Ok we were bad early but did pick it up later in the game. We can build on that" All those stupid late goals just turned it into a 7-3 blowout. Any momentum gained by those 2 late goals was lost.

Same can't be said for Tampa who gave up 2 ENers in previous game.

 

[Shooter2x]

That lung test Nylander did at the combine where he finished 1st was on full display though. That little speed burst he managed at the end of his shift fully gassed before giving up for good, not many players in the league can muster that.

Realizing you are not playing at your best, so dropping a face wash on Kucherov your next shift and scoring 2 goals, what a beast turning it on.

Two can play this game.

Nylander has the athleticism to get that extra couple seconds in, but you need to understand those couple extra seconds might not be fully pretty. Some shortcuts need to be taken.

Reminds me of the overtime against Devils. Nylander had nothing left to give on his shift. Puck finds its way back to him however, and he pushes out some hidden leg energy to get into the slot. Had no energy left for the shot, it was one of the weakest shots I've ever seen (hence not going to be pretty), but the goalie left the five hole wide open and it trickled in for the win.

This place is annoying I'm out for my own sanity sake. I applaud you if you stick around to defend the main boys.

 

[killer1980]

Same can't be said for Tampa who gave up 2 ENers in previous game.

TB was only down 3-2 when they pulled their goalie. That was the right move. They also are a more disciplined team that has proven they can bounce back. Leafs have a lot to prove and nothing they did last night gives any indication they are headed in the right direction.

 

[francis246]

Pathetic gutless effort. There's zero leadership on this team. Zero.

There is leadership in the dressing room, I think it starts with Keefe though. He makes stupid decisions that don't have his team ready or makes it hard for his team to be engaged. It's Babcock 2.0 and a lot of people don't want to admit it. Reluctant to make changes and is stubborn with certain guys.

Holl shouldn't have started the game, you can argue that he should have played, fair. But to start the game was just really dumb.

Why on earth Keefe wouldn't start with the Matthews or Tavares line is beyond me. It's a pivotal game. Start with your big guns. He needs to separate Matthews and Marner. We saw what happened in the MTL series, it became predictable. Spread out the offense a bit. Give Tavares Marner, I know everyone will bitch about Tavares needing Marner but who cares, if it works to get him going, then it works and for the love of God, the third line is playing way too much. They should not be leading our team in ice time.

 

[Kelly]

I really do not want this to go to the seventh game... we all know whats going to happen if it does.

They really, really need to take the next two.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I can't wait for the day Jack Campbell is not a Leaf, he's a 50% goalie, meaning he's good 50% of the time and he's dog shit 50% of the time which he has been all series and that's not good enough .

I expect him to have a good game tomorrow and keep the pattern going but going forward he's got to go.

you can't be letting in the first shot of a playoff game, you can't let in that 4-0 goal, you can't let in 3 goals on 6 shots.

When the off season hits they have to redo the enire goalie depth chart, ALL of it

Campbell, Marazek, Kallgren, Hutchinson maybe, MAYBE you can keep Woll

but the Leafs can't go forward with 50% goaltending

they need a legitimate #1, not somebody that had a good November

There is leadership in the dressing room, I think it starts with Keefe though. He makes stupid decisions that don't have his team ready or makes it hard for his team to be engaged. It's Babcock 2.0 and a lot of people don't want to admit it. Reluctant to make changes and is stubborn with certain guys.

Holl shouldn't have started the game, you can argue that he should have played, fair. But to start the game was just really dumb.

Why on earth Keefe wouldn't start with the Matthews or Tavares line is beyond me. It's a pivotal game. Start with your big guns. He needs to separate Matthews and Marner. We saw what happened in the MTL series, it became predictable. Spread out the offense a bit. Give Tavares Marner, I know everyone will bitch about Tavares needing Marner but who cares, if it works to get him going, then it works and for the love of God, the third line is playing way too much. They should not be leading our team in ice time.

no you can't argue he should have played

 

[JT AM da real deal]

You can blame tender, you an blame refs, you can blame Willy even blame Holl even Keefer etc etc .. bottom line as long as I've played and watched hockey I have never seen a junior or pro team with a 2nd line C getting caved for 4 straight games by all 4 of other teams Cs .. and I mean completely caved on virtually every shift .. when you watch these games LIVE at da arena you can see it so so clearly .. cameras on TV you really can't understand it unfortunately .. nothing else matters unless da 100 pound gorrilla problem is addressed and solved .. now I know he makes 11M AAV and I know he is captain .. and playing him on line 2 only nullifies his wingers too .. not saying Willy should get a pass for his play but a winger relies on his C for so so many aspects of da game .. and da plays in garbage time mean nothing .. Willy must move to 2C right now .. drop JT to either 4C or 4LW .. if nothing is done then this series is over my friends unless Soup wins a game entirely on his own .. Tampa is too big and too fast for JT to keep up to da play

 

[francis246]

You can blame tender, you an blame refs, you can blame Willy even blame Holl even Keefer etc etc .. bottom line as long as I've played and watched hockey I have never seen a junior or pro team with a 2nd line C getting caved for 4 straight games by all 4 of other teams Cs .. and I mean completely caved on virtually every shift .. when you watch these games LIVE at da arena you can see it so so clearly .. cameras on TV you really can't understand it unfortunately .. nothing else matters unless da 100 pound gorrilla problem is addressed and solved .. now I know he makes 11M AAV and I know he is captain .. and playing him on line 2 only nullifies his wingers too .. not saying Willy should get a pass for his play but a winger relies on his C for so so many aspects of da game .. and da plays in garbage time mean nothing .. Willy must move to 2C right now .. drop JT to either 4C or 4LW .. if nothing is done then this series is over my friends unless Soup wins a game entirely on his own .. Tampa is too big and too fast for JT to keep up to da play

While I agree with you to a certain extent. Pinning this series on John Tavares’ individual play is as ludicrous as it gets. If we lose the Series it’s not because of JT’s lack of production solely. It’s because collectively as a group the team wasn’t good enough

 

[keonsbitterness]

Exactly
Playoffs is all about momentum

Within games, sure, but momentum means nothing from one game to the next. Pretty much every playoff team coming off a bad game has played better the next one.

This was a real eye opening game as to which team performs better under pressure.

A dominating Leafs win while going up 3-1 and putting a stranglehold on the series, would have sent a clear message that this is a different Leafs team of the past that doesn't lose in big games.

Does this mean you're coming off your previous clear message that the Leafs were in great shape because the winner of game three usually wins the series?

Toronto during the regular season: 24th most penalty minutes.

Toronto in the playoffs: 1st for penalty minutes.

Seems legit.

Regular season stats don't always translate to the playoffs, and in retrospect it was stupid for Keefe to say this was going to be a violent series. That's the equivalent of giving the league an engraved invitation to please give us more penalties.

 

[Dreakmur]

I stream game last night and left the tab open on browser luckily. I can see back plays.

It is true Nylander was out for very long time before chasing that play. Nothing to see there stop acting like imbeciles.

If he was tired, he should have peeled to the bench as soon as the puck rolled off his stick. He was 100% scared to get hit.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

While I agree with you to a certain extent. Pinning this series on John Tavares’ individual play is as ludicrous as it gets. If we lose the Series it’s not because of JT’s lack of production solely. It’s because collectively as a group the team wasn’t good enough

It has NOTHING to do with production .. nothing at all .. it has nothing to do with stats .. and unfortunately you won't be able to understand it unless you seen all 4 games live in da rinks .. he is getting caught from behind when he tries to bring puck out of his end .. he is getting left in da dust every time all C's on Tampa break out of their end .. he is getting boxed out of net front by all Tampa D's trying to setup position .. he is not getting close to puck in 5-10 foot mini races in his own end .. our D don't even bother to look for him for a pass anymore as he is always covered .. and it is not even remotely close in all these issues .. it is a complete and total beat down by every Tampa C on virtually every single shift .. there were many Toronto fans sitting behind Leaf bench with my mom and I and there were 2 or 3 screaming at Keefer most of game 4 to sit JT .. now I could not do it because it was mothers day and I was on my Ps and Qs

 

[Mess]

Last year when they had a 3-1 lead everyone said the same thing. "Oh this Leafs team is different."

These guys just never earn my trust until they show they do have killer instinct and win.

Agreed.

Trust in life is not given its earned, and Leafs have not done anything to be granted that trust in advance !!!! IMO

That is why as a diehard fan after being disappointed over and over in the past, that I've decided to take my "heart" out of the equation and make the Leafs "prove it" to earn trust.

I'm betting by using my "head" instead playing the odds in the series. Leafs have home ice, and can't lose forever in round #1 and TB as 2 X champs also can't win forever either, as all streaks end eventually.

So therefore, I like the chances of Leafs advancing more based on trusting my head vs heart. .. Leafs performance yesterday did nothing to change my position on trust, only solidified it.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Both advanced and end result stats for Leafs dmen in the series so far:

5v5 xGF% REL:
1. Holl
2. Brodie
3. Muzzin
4. Giordano
5. Rielly
6. Boosh
7. Liljegen

5v5 GF%: REL:
1. Brodie
2. Muzzin
3. Holl
4. Giordano
5. Liljegren
6. Rielly
7. Boosh

Just Defensively:

Fewest Expected Goals Against/60 5v5 REL:
1. Holl
2. Brodie
3. Muzzin
4. Giordano
5. Rielly
6. Liljegren
7. Boosh

Fewest Goals Against/60 5v5 REL:
1. Holl
2. Muzzin
3. Brodie
4. Giordano
5. Rielly
6. Liljegren
7. Boosh

Fewest Goals Against REL on the PK:
1. Holl
2. Liljegren
3. Rielly
4. Giordano
5. Muzzin
6. Brodie
7. Boosh

Interesting analysis thanks. However, regardless of what the agreegated stats tell you if Holl didn't shit the bed for first like 15 minutes of that game it would have gone very different.

Also can you explain what the REL being used is? All are playing on the same team so why would you need a relative stat? Wouldn't their goals against per 60 be an apples to apples comparison regardless? Or is does it include other things like home vs away, if your leading or not etc?

 

[Stephen]

As always, it’s not that they lose but how they lose.
I don’t think anyone expects them to be an undefeated team.

Exactly this. The game reminds me of when the Leafs were up 3-2 on Boston at home and casually choked it away with the comfort that there could be a Game 7. When they say killer instinct, I just don’t think they understand that winning the 3rd and 4th game gets exponentially harder over time.

Why save the hardest task for Game 6 or 7 when you can go for the jugular in Game 4? The fact they didn’t leads me to believe they’re suckers. Happy to be wrong but I think we’re following the annual script and there has been no internal growth.

 

[therealkoho]

Tampa bay wanted a piece of bunting for whatever reason at the end of the game

Embarrassing performance could have had a championship defining effort. Instead they get pillaged

Good his high stick on Sergachev worked, hopefully hunting him down becomes an obsession for them. Like I said in the game thread he needs to do it again, Sergachev is a bit of a dirty prick and deserved it. Also Perry needs a punch in the mouth

Keefe lovers explain to me why Marner only played 13 seconds more than Blackwell 5v5

Two words PK, I'm sure you can figure it out from there.