More points this year? Crosby vs Bedard

[Fledgemyhedge]

Man I’d probably take Crosby next year too. Bedards been a little disappointing

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Crosby finished behind Benn the following season as well. He also got annihilated by Kane.

It’s also never mentioned, but if you’re going to give Crosby that benefit of a doubt, well Seguin would be right there with 82 games as well. Crosby had multiple stretches that season where he wouldn’t have picked up the required 4 points in 5 games needed to win outright, so I’ve never felt comfortable about auto-gifting him this trophy with more games played.

Doesn’t matter what the raw total is. Losing to players like Benn twice and Tavares has a different stink on it than Kucherov and MacKinnon.

Sometimes you have to call it what it was. Losing to these players and never winning another scoring race after the so-called dominance of 2013-2014 was an unexpected disappointment. We don’t need to deflect by talking about raw point totals too high or too low. If Crosby didn’t have these bizarre blemishes on his resume, there would be little reason to harp on why he is given such an extreme benefit of a doubt and infinite grace period.

Almost like playing on the Dallas Stars under Ruff helped guys complete for the scoring title when they would be nowhere close otherwise.

And this is what happens when you are too focused on trophies. I think Crosby led he league in ppg under Sullivan in 2016. He just spent the first 30 games sandbagging to get the coach fired. But it all worked out, the Penguins won the cup.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Were more than 50% through the season and mcdavid at 28 is 11 points up on a 37 year old crosby. That should be concerning oiler fans. Also getting outscored by marner and lol.... Rantanen

 

[TheLegend27]

Crosby finished behind Benn the following season as well. He also got annihilated by Kane.

It’s also never mentioned, but if you’re going to give Crosby that benefit of a doubt, well Seguin would be right there with 82 games as well. Crosby had multiple stretches that season where he wouldn’t have picked up the required 4 points in 5 games needed to win outright, so I’ve never felt comfortable about auto-gifting him this trophy with more games played.

Doesn’t matter what the raw total is. Losing to players like Benn twice and Tavares has a different stink on it than Kucherov and MacKinnon.

Sometimes you have to call it what it was. Losing to these players and never winning another scoring race after the so-called dominance of 2013-2014 was an unexpected disappointment. We don’t need to deflect by talking about raw point totals too high or too low. If Crosby didn’t have these bizarre blemishes on his resume, there would be little reason to harp on why he is given such an extreme benefit of a doubt and infinite grace period.

The 2014/2015 & 2015/2016 seasons are the reason why I very much doubt Crosby could’ve sustained his 2011-2013 pace over the whole season.

Crosby 2010/2011: 66p/41g=1.61
Crosby 2011/2012: 37/22‎ = 1.682
Crosby 2013: 56/36‎ = 1.556
Crosby 2014: 104/80‎ = 1.3
Crosby 2015: 84/77‎ = 1.0909
Crosby 2016: 85/80‎ = 1.0625

League scoring averages: GPG
2011: 2.73
2012: 2.66
2013: 2.65
2014: 2.67
2015: 2.66
2016: 2.67

The league-wide scoring has barely changed, but Crosby’s PPG has decreased massively in the actual full seasons he played. Even in his amazing 2014 season, 1.3 is still a huge dip from the 1.61 he was pacing in 2011 & 1.68 in 2012. It’s not like his injuries completely changed him, like the leg injury completely changed Stamkos skating and acceleration.

If we define an NHL athletes peak from 23-27, the drop in Crosby’s production shouldn’t have been that massive. Crosby was 27 in 2015, very much in his peak. The drop from 132 point pace in 2011 to a 89 point pace in 2015 at age 27 just doesn’t add up. Or how about 127 pace in 2013 to 89 in 2015. The scoring hasn’t changed at all, but in two years Crosby’s production massively falls off?. Shows how his pace wasn’t sustainable.


I don’t understand how Crosby is given full credit for a level of play he wasn’t able to show for an entire season. I believe that 2013-2014 was actually the absolute peak level Crosby could have accomplished. Before I get flamed by Pens fans, Crosby is still a top five player all time(for now) despite the injuries.

 

[Crow]

Man I’d probably take Crosby next year too. Bedards been a little disappointing

He had a very slow start but has been over PPG since December and is on a 9 game point streak right now. I think it’s still going to be very close this year if both stay healthy.

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

Bedard is avoiding the sophomore slump but Sid is Sid.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

The 2014/2015 & 2015/2016 seasons are the reason why I very much doubt Crosby could’ve sustained his 2011-2013 pace over the whole season.

Crosby 2010/2011: 66p/41g=1.61
Crosby 2011/2012: 37/22‎ = 1.682
Crosby 2013: 56/36‎ = 1.556
Crosby 2014: 104/80‎ = 1.3
Crosby 2015: 84/77‎ = 1.0909
Crosby 2016: 85/80‎ = 1.0625

League scoring averages: GPG
2011: 2.73
2012: 2.66
2013: 2.65
2014: 2.67
2015: 2.66
2016: 2.67

The league-wide scoring has barely changed, but Crosby’s PPG has decreased massively in the actual full seasons he played. Even in his amazing 2014 season, 1.3 is still a huge dip from the 1.61 he was pacing in 2011 & 1.68 in 2012. It’s not like his injuries completely changed him, like the leg injury completely changed Stamkos skating and acceleration.

If we define an NHL athletes peak from 23-27, the drop in Crosby’s production shouldn’t have been that massive. Crosby was 27 in 2015, very much in his peak. The drop from 132 point pace in 2011 to a 89 point pace in 2015 at age 27 just doesn’t add up. Or how about 127 pace in 2013 to 89 in 2015. The scoring hasn’t changed at all, but in two years Crosby’s production massively falls off?. Shows how his pace wasn’t sustainable.


I don’t understand how Crosby is given full credit for a level of play he wasn’t able to show for an entire season. I believe that 2013-2014 was actually the absolute peak level Crosby could have accomplished. Before I get flamed by Pens fans, Crosby is still a top five player all time(for now) despite the injuries.

14-15 and a third of 15-16 pens had a defensive minded coach in Mike Johnston. Brutal period to watch and the pens were never built to play like that anyway. Crosby lead the NHL in scoring after the coaching change on December 12th in 15-16.

Not to mention Crosby literally had to change his style of play post concussion. His peak was cut short. 13-14 while a great art ross winning season he was already playing differently. Was capable of far more at his peak.

 

[Video Nasty]

14-15 and a third of 15-16 pens had a defensive minded coach in Mike Johnston. Brutal period to watch and the pens were never built to play like that anyway. Crosby lead the NHL in scoring after the coaching change on December 12th in 15-16.

Not to mention Crosby literally had to change his style of play post concussion. His peak was cut short. 13-14 while a great art ross winning season he was already playing differently. Was capable of far more at his peak.

And what are the excuses for not winning scoring races in 2008-2009 and 2009-2010? I already know 2007-2008 is auto gifted because of his bout of missed time.

That’s the problem with Crosby and why I can never stomach the free pass he is given over literally every scenario that didn’t go his way. There’s not really good evidence before or after concussions that he was on some other mythical level that he could routinely maintain.

 

[TeeTee]

The 2014/2015 & 2015/2016 seasons are the reason why I very much doubt Crosby could’ve sustained his 2011-2013 pace over the whole season.

Crosby 2010/2011: 66p/41g=1.61
Crosby 2011/2012: 37/22‎ = 1.682
Crosby 2013: 56/36‎ = 1.556
Crosby 2014: 104/80‎ = 1.3
Crosby 2015: 84/77‎ = 1.0909
Crosby 2016: 85/80‎ = 1.0625

League scoring averages: GPG
2011: 2.73
2012: 2.66
2013: 2.65
2014: 2.67
2015: 2.66
2016: 2.67

The league-wide scoring has barely changed, but Crosby’s PPG has decreased massively in the actual full seasons he played. Even in his amazing 2014 season, 1.3 is still a huge dip from the 1.61 he was pacing in 2011 & 1.68 in 2012. It’s not like his injuries completely changed him, like the leg injury completely changed Stamkos skating and acceleration.

If we define an NHL athletes peak from 23-27, the drop in Crosby’s production shouldn’t have been that massive. Crosby was 27 in 2015, very much in his peak. The drop from 132 point pace in 2011 to a 89 point pace in 2015 at age 27 just doesn’t add up. Or how about 127 pace in 2013 to 89 in 2015. The scoring hasn’t changed at all, but in two years Crosby’s production massively falls off?. Shows how his pace wasn’t sustainable.


I don’t understand how Crosby is given full credit for a level of play he wasn’t able to show for an entire season. I believe that 2013-2014 was actually the absolute peak level Crosby could have accomplished. Before I get flamed by Pens fans, Crosby is still a top five player all time(for now) despite the injuries.

Their coach at the time, Mike Johnson, was brutal. When the veil was lifted and Sullivan was hired, Crosby's game changed entirely.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

And what are the excuses for not winning scoring races in 2008-2009 and 2009-2010? I already know 2007-2008 is auto gifted because of his bout of missed time.

That’s the problem with Crosby and why I can never stomach the free pass he is given over literally every scenario that didn’t go his way. There’s not really good evidence before or after concussions that he was on some other mythical level that he could routinely maintain.

He was third in scoring both of those years, hardly a disappointment. Outscored by monstrous seasons from Malkin/Ovechkin and a career year from Sedin.

No one says he would win the art ross every year. But without injury he has a minimum of 4 (10-11 and 12-13), possibly 5 since he was leading the league when he got injured in 07-08. Maybe 6 if Johnston was fired prior to 15-16.

The argument is his trophy case is light compared to the level he actually played it. That said i don't think he even cares. Despite the obstacles and a career changing concussion they still won 3 cups and were the best team of the era. Winner through and through, and an elite player 20 consecutive years and counting.

 

[Video Nasty]

He was third in scoring both of those years, hardly a disappointment. Outscored by monstrous seasons from Malkin/Ovechkin and a career year from Sedin.

No one says he would win the art ross every year. But without injury he has a minimum of 4, possibly 5 since he was leading the league when he got injured in 07-08. Maybe 6 if Johnston was fired prior to 15-16.

The argument is his trophy case is light compared to the level he actually played it. That said i don't think he even cares. Despite the obstacles and a career changing concussion they still won 3 cups and were the best team of the era. Winner through and through, and an elite player 20 consecutive years and counting.

I don’t mind him not winning every scoring race. What I mind is how he’s auto gifted wins as if he has a long history of winning before and after concussions. If he won in 2008-2009 and 2009-2010, or heck even just one, I’m not even making half the posts I do about him because at least there’s something tangible about the period leading up to the concussions.

The longer his career goes on and the longer he is admittedly still good, the more silly all the what if and maybes become pointless.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don’t mind him not winning every scoring race. What I mind is how he’s auto gifted wins as if he has a long history of winning before and after concussions. If he won in 2008-2009 and 2009-2010, or heck even just one, I’m not even making half the posts I do about him because at least there’s something tangible about the period leading up to the concussions.

The longer his career goes on and the longer he is admittedly still good, the more silly all the what if and maybes become pointless.

I hope you have this same level of enthusiasm to shit talk McDavid when he loses the scoring race again this year.

I'm betting you won't.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

I don’t mind him not winning every scoring race. What I mind is how he’s auto gifted wins as if he has a long history of winning before and after concussions. If he won in 2008-2009 and 2009-2010, or heck even just one, I’m not even making half the posts I do about him because at least there’s something tangible about the period leading up to the concussions.

The longer his career goes on and the longer he is admittedly still good, the more silly all the what if and maybes become pointless.

The only ones people "auto gift" him are 10-11 and 12-13. And it's because he was a far superior player to anyone by a significant margin those seasons.

 

[Video Nasty]

I hope you have this same level of enthusiasm to shit talk McDavid when he loses the scoring race again this year.

I'm betting you won't.

I won’t, and I’ll tell you why.

1. He already has five Art Rosses.

2. He has an additional three #2 finishes. He’s been top 2 in PPG eight seasons in a row. This could be his 9th in a row.

3. He’ll be a minimum of top 3 PPG for all 10 seasons of his career.

4. He won 3 Art Rosses in a row and five of the previous 7 before the injury explanations began.

5. Seemingly everything he does related to scoring points has the moniker “other than Gretzky and Lemieux” attached to it.

So yeah, night and day difference. Still half a season left, so calm down.

The only ones people "auto gift" him are 10-11 and 12-13. And it's because he was a far superior player to anyone by a significant margin those seasons.

I can agree with those. I always have. But we both know the overall push over the past 15+ years to explain away every single blemish on his resume exists.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The only ones people "auto gift" him are 10-11 and 12-13. And it's because he was a far superior player to anyone by a significant margin those seasons.

When Crosby got hurt in 2011, he was up 10 points on #2 and was up 16 points on the eventual Art Ross winner. He needed 38 points in the remaining 41 games to win the Art Ross that year.

When Crosby got hurt in 2012, he was up 10 points on #2 and 13 points on the eventual Art Ross winner. He needed 4 points in the remaining 12 games to win the Art Ross that year.

So yeah, even if you think 2011 is a stretch (which I think is silly, because Crosby needed a worse performance than any season he has ever had in the NHL), 2013 is basically a lock and no reasonable person would argue against that.

I won’t, and I’ll tell you why.

You won't because you're a McDavid fanboy and try to shit talk Crosby at every opportunity you can.

Everyone can see through your schtick.

 

[Video Nasty]

When Crosby got hurt in 2011, he was up 10 points on #2 and was up 16 points on the eventual Art Ross winner. He needed 38 points in the remaining 41 games to win the Art Ross that year.

When Crosby got hurt in 2012, he was up 10 points on #2 and 13 points on the eventual Art Ross winner. He needed 4 points in the remaining 12 games to win the Art Ross that year.

So yeah, even if you think 2011 is a stretch (which I think is silly, because Crosby needed a worse performance than any season he has ever had in the NHL), 2013 is basically a lock and no reasonable person would argue against that.



You won't because you're a McDavid fanboy and try to shit talk Crosby at every opportunity you can.

Everyone can see through your schtick.

1. Oh…this would hit hard if I didn’t reply to Luigi that states my agreement with 2010-2011 and 2012-2013.

2. So your overall reply is I don’t love your guy as much as you do, so ignore my five reasons which are all factual and instead get emotional. Got it.

You got me. I think McDavid is better than Crosby.

 

[Crow]

I hope you have this same level of enthusiasm to shit talk McDavid when he loses the scoring race again this year.

I'm betting you won't.

This is a weird post man. Even saying he might not have won those races is shit talking him? You Crosby fantasyland people are something else.

 

[Empoleon8771]

This is a weird post man. Even saying he might not have won those races is shit talking him? You Crosby fantasyland people are something else.

That poster comes into literally every single Crosby thread to shit talk him. He's a McDavid fanboy trying his hardest to tear down Crosby.

Rookie Crosby scored over 100 points and was six in league scoring and still didn’t win the Calder… talking about “wrong” era. Btw Bedard wasn’t competing with Drai, Kuch and Mac (these guys almost doubled his PPG), but with the likes of Boeser, Rust and Zuccarello.

What’s Crosby’s excuse for winning one Art Ross past the age of 19?

These were the posts that started this conversation. It is blatantly obvious that the guy just tears down Crosby at any chance, which is how this whole "how many Art Ross trophies should Crosby have won?" started. The guy took a pot shot at Crosby in a completely unrelated discussion just because it was shit talking Crosby.

 

[Crow]

That poster comes into literally every single Crosby thread to shit talk him. He's a McDavid fanboy trying his hardest to tear down Crosby.





These were the posts that started this conversation. It is blatantly obvious that the guy just tears down Crosby at any chance, which is how this whole "how many Art Ross trophies should Crosby have won?" started. The guy took a pot shot at Crosby in a completely unrelated discussion just because it was shit talking Crosby.

Ok maybe that’s fair maybe not. I’m not going to look through his post history.

 

[Video Nasty]

That poster comes into literally every single Crosby thread to shit talk him. He's a McDavid fanboy trying his hardest to tear down Crosby.





These were the posts that started this conversation. It is blatantly obvious that the guy just tears down Crosby at any chance, which is how this whole "how many Art Ross trophies should Crosby have won?" started. The guy took a pot shot at Crosby in a completely unrelated discussion just because it was shit talking Crosby.

One thing you’re missing is that I quoted @Nathaniel Skywalker there. We often engage in over the top back and forths. I assume we both needle each other because it’s amusing to us. Hence why his recent contribution to this thread was bringing up how this current season is more than halfway over and joking about some of the players McDavid is currently behind.

I’m sorry that winning one Art Ross past the age of 19 is a statement steeped in reality.

 

[TheLegend27]

The only ones people "auto gift" him are 10-11 and 12-13. And it's because he was a far superior player to anyone by a significant margin those seasons.

I’m totally okay with auto gifting those 10-11 & 12-13 Art Rosses. The problem I have is creating a narrative that Crosby had some of the most dominant seasons of all time by adjusting the games he didn’t play for his pace at the time. Some think had he’d stayed healthy, he’d have gotten 132 in 2011, 138 in 2012 or 127 in 2013. Stamkos for example had 56 in 41(112 pace) at the time Crosby went down, but finished the season 91 in 82. Crosby very well may have kept up his pace, but those fairy tale numbers can’t be used to argue that Crosby had a higher peak than player X who played full seasons.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Really thought bedard would take that huge step in his second season like lemieux/crosby/malkin/mcdavid did. I think it might not be so much the skill but the body. He still looks like a kid in a mens league out there. He is going to be a late bloomer for sure.