Montreal Impact Thread LIII - Shipp'ing up to Montreal! - 6/03|530PM: @VAN

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ArtPeur

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some of the people that idolize Salazar are the same people that bashed the MLS draft over a month ago, bravo :clap: ... change of heart, eh? :laugh:

I may be one of those that doesn't care much about the draft mainly because most of those players have yet to contribute regularly on the field. That said, like you said later, our Academy players haven't been so great either. I can't remember who said that here but, I agreed that we should trade our draft picks to get some international spots or allocation money because those picks have been somewhat average for us so far. And there's the fact that our best draftees have been selected late (Mallace, Porter) while Miller, Smith and Wenger had some hard time getting quality time or failed to contribute when given that play time.
 

JunglePete

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I may be one of those that doesn't care much about the draft mainly because most of those players have yet to contribute regularly on the field. That said, like you said later, our Academy players haven't been so great either. I can't remember who said that here but, I agreed that we should trade our draft picks to get some international spots or allocation money because those picks have been somewhat average for us so far. And there's the fact that our best draftees have been selected late (Mallace, Porter) while Miller, Smith and Wenger had some hard time getting quality time or failed to contribute when given that play time.

If you don't care about the draft, it isn't a problem. If you bash it, belittle it or neglect it now yes that's a problem. You aren't part of the FO so you have a right to not care. What I can't stand is people (not only on this forum) subtly saying how the draft is useless and got nothing but low quality players when most of their starting XI are drafted players.

The draftees you mentioned that had hard time getting quality time/failed all have their reasons. There was no way for Miller to get significant minutes this season (remember his first season he was a regular before his injury), this trade was a great move for his career. Let's not forget he is a national team member. Wenger, well he simply didn't click and needs more mental strenght with a better finishing. Once he improves, he'll be lethal. He's got speed, strenght, technically gifted, assets that can't be thought. I wasn't Smith's biggest fan but we all know he is skilled and was simply disliked by the coach despite putting good shows for some reason.
Now the difference between these 3 players and a vast majority of Academy players is that they can potentially be a starter for another MLS team. (I know Smith plays in NASL but I doubt he stays there for a long time)
 

JunglePete

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Yes, that's basically all I have to say and let me explain you why:

- Your sample size is very very very small.
- You are projecting based on LIMITED highly subjective observations.
- You are judging the academy and its future importance based on its first class. Hint: It was never about the first 5 years, the results, good or bad, should be evaluated when guys that did ALL of their development at the club start reaching MLS.
- Confirmation bias (I mean, the Romario Williams analysis is laughable at best - not because it is necessarily wrong, but because it is based on... nothing)

I could easily say that Maxime Crépeau, based on what I saw from him at the Pan-Am games and against the USA, is a future star in MLS. That would be based on as much evidence as your predictions are (and would be as likely to be true)

The reason I said "let's agree to disagree" is not because I think the Academy players are superior to the players we drafted (some are, some aren't), but because we would argue in circles for days considering HOW your assessment was made. There is nothing tangible to discuss. You are rating guys based on 2 or 3 preseason matches. It is highly possible that NONE of them ever have any lasting positive impact on the team (well, except Porter who scored the most epic goal in franchise history, but that's still not sustained contribution). It is also possible that some of them become stars. You cannot assess success rate for the last two drafts NOW! As we cannot assess our academy's success based on the first wave of "not totally trained here" guys.

My point about the MLS draft was that it was much more of a crapshoot than good pro-scouting and in-house development (you will miss more with your homegrown guys, but those that reach the first team are more likely to succeed than draftees, especially as academies throughout North America grow). Our resources shouldn't be focused on the draft. We have to be serious about it, but you ABSOLUTELY CANNOT build from it - meaning that if the draft, like in the NFL or NHL, is your best bet to improve your team, you are in deep trouble. Doesn't mean you cannot get good players from it. Hell, I'd be the happiest fan in the world if we can have a good success rate (one or two Mallace/Wenger caliber players each year would be exceptional, tbh). It just shouldn't be a priority especially if your definition of success is Andrew Wenger (if that's the caliber of player MOST first overall picks produce, it tells you all it has to about the draft - shouldn't be your primary source of players). That's all I am saying, not that you cannot get good players and should NECESSARILY trade all of your picks. However, if a first round pick is the price to pay for an established player, you pay it every time.

Oh, and last thing, you realize that Maxim Tissot, a guy that has experience at the MLS level and who has already shown that he CAN be a contributor (not a star, not a starter, but a quality squad player) is the same age/younger than many guys that have been drafted THIS YEAR! Same for many academy players except Lefevre who is older.

TL;DR You have limited data and you are making wild guesses based on it. You could be right, you could be wrong. That's not an evaluation we can and should try to make at the moment.

I have limited data? lol ok I will show different teams that had academy teams for more than 5 years but first I will give answers to your previous points.

As of now, Romario is our best goalscorer in pre-season (And no he didn't play every minute). Whatever you think, he is better than our Academy striker, plus he showed signs of improvement.

Now I agree, I shouldn't judge after watching 2 or 3 pre season games, but it's still a STRONG indicator and no it isn't subjective if dude can't play for s*** then he can't play for sh**. A 70 year old lady that never watched soccer in her life can tell who's crap to who's not. It took me 45 minutes to see Salazar's potential. AJH have played what ? 1000 minutes ? I have yet to see something that impressed me. If he were American, oh boy.... I mean, if it takes you a full year to see if a player has it, then you have a problem. The 2.Bundesliga clubs interested in Crepeau, you think they watched FC Montreal games? Doubt that. What about the USA game or Pan Am games? I'm very confident they did. It only takes one.


Of course we can't build around Draft, we have to look in South America, Europe, MLS veterans... I'm not saying Academy players are unnecessary, simply saying that they are somehow overhyped, specially ours. Notice how no one was signed from the Academy in 2015?

Your point about waiting for all of the player's development doesn't hold water. Using that logic, Freddy Adu should still play with Benfica or Pato with Milan. There aren't many Drogbas or Wondolowskis. If the player is currently below average then he is below average. If he were* to become above average, 80% of the time he wouldn't be below average. Notice a difference between below average and mediocre.

So it could be easier to read, I will post a 2nd part...
 

Scandale du Jour

JordanStaal#1Fan
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Limited quantitative data, yes. What are your metrics? How do you mesure success?

How can you conclude, by watching 3 exhibition games that Romario Williams is better than AJH. Yet, AJH has more pro team minutes, more first team goals and is younger. Could he have a better career? Sure! But how can you use Romario Williams to prove that the draft has helped us more than our academy? Based on what he showed so far in camp? That's indeed very limited, and flawed, data.

You could easily prove that, so far in the league's history, the draft has helped MLS clubs more than their academies, I am not disputing that. However, I am SURE that a data analysis (use minutes played, goals, average ratings, whatever) would show that it is trending down.

My point is: the draft shouldn't take a huge part of.our recruiting budget. In the long run, pouring money in the Academy is a better investment than scouting college players (costs more though, but the ROI potential is higher). That's all I always said about the draft. Never said.it should be totally ignored (certainly used the word "crap", but that was me being lazy).
 

JunglePete

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Limited quantitative data, yes. What are your metrics? How do you mesure success?

How can you conclude, by watching 3 exhibition games that Romario Williams is better than AJH. Yet, AJH has more pro team minutes, more first team goals and is younger. Could he have a better career? Sure! But how can you use Romario Williams to prove that the draft has helped us more than our academy? Based on what he showed so far in camp? That's indeed very limited, and flawed, data.

You could easily prove that, so far in the league's history, the draft has helped MLS clubs more than their academies, I am not disputing that. However, I am SURE that a data analysis (use minutes played, goals, average ratings, whatever) would show that it is trending down.

My point is: the draft shouldn't take a huge part of.our recruiting efforts. In the long run, pouring money in the Academy is the better investment than scouting college players. That's all I always said about the draft. Never said.it should be totally ignored (certainly used the word "crap", but that was me being lazy).

So because AJH has more minutes and is maybe 2 years younger he is better ? I like how you ignore every other elements to try to prove me wrong when I said draftees are better than academy products. So you think AJH is better than Salazar ? or Porter? maybe Wenger? since he's younger :laugh:(before you reply, it's a joke....)

Here for the limited data. Let's take DC United Academy, possibly the most succesful academy program in MLS. The players that came out of it & signed a professional contract are :
Samir Badr, Bill Hamid, Collin Martin, Andy Najar, Michael Seaton, Conor Shanosky, Ethan White, Jalen Robinson, Romain Gall, Iyassu Bekele. I'm not even gonna fight it, the only 2 successes are Bill Hamid and Andy Najar. Ethan White might be a good fringe player for NYCFC. The rest are possibly never gonna be MLS starting material and are playing in USL, NPSL (never heard that league).

now compare it to the recently drafted DC players:
Chris Pontius, Taylor Kemp , Perry Kitchen (recently linked with Lazio), Steve Birnbaum (scored his first International goal & assist in the same game), Chris Korb, Deleon, Rodney Wallace (plays in Portugese first division). With the exception of Wallace who had been traded, they were ALL all starters when they finished 1st 2 years ago (Pontius was injured).

Good night
 

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JordanStaal#1Fan
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Are you even reading what I write? I am not saying that one is better than the other now. I am saying your forecast of IMFC player is crap because it is based on limited data. I am saying the draft is trending downwards and that will continue to do so as academies grow. I am saying that the draft shouldn't be put above the academy. I am not arguing past results. I am saying your initial argument was pulled out of your ass (and it was).

I used minutes and goals.because they are quantifiable (far from perfect). We could use games started per season on average. We could use game ratings. You are using three games in which you think a guy looked good (and he did).

Don't move goal posts, I am not arguing academy vs draft.
 

JunglePete

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Are you even reading what I write? I am not saying that one is better than the other now. I am saying your forecast of IMFC player is crap because it is based on limited data. I am saying the draft is trending downwards and that will continue to do so as academies grow. I am saying that the draft shouldn't be put above the academy. I am not arguing past results. I am saying your initial argument was pulled out of your ass (and it was).

I used minutes and goals.because they are quantifiable (far from perfect). We could use games started per season on average. We could use game ratings. You are using three games in which you think a guy looked good (and he did).

Don't move goal posts, I am not arguing academy vs draft.

Unless, you're some kind of oracle, I don't see any signs of the academy (Specially ours) being a better ressource for new young players. It's purely only a new ressource for coaches; it gives them more options for rookies and a chance at saving the above average players from European clubs. Playing minutes has nothing to do, games started per season ? are you kidding me!? academy players will always be favored because they are LOCAL and people like that local players. Doesnt mean that they are better. You just confirmed that Romario looked good the last 3 games, so what in the bloody hell are you ranting about ? He's looked better than AJH all last season.

Yes you've been arguing about academy vs draft, you said ''However, I am SURE that a data analysis (use minutes played, goals, average ratings, whatever) would show that it is trending down.'

Now I think you realized that you were wrong so you're trying to smooth out, if you doubt it again or in denial. Well look at DC United academy players vs draftees :laugh:...........

Yoou also said 'The draft should still be the least important priority recruiting-wise. The MLS draft is not great, doesn't mean you cannot find good players. Salazar having a good camp or even becoming a star wouldn't do anything to change that notion. ' :shakehead
 

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JordanStaal#1Fan
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I do not have the time to do the analysis, but I am not wrong about the trend.

I am not arguing which one is performing better right now. I am saying we should prioritize the academy because the chances of success are greater (mainly because you OWN the rights of the guys you invest in - you know them better so there is less randomness. The draft isn't a primary source of recruiting (contrary to the NHL or.the NFL) and shouldn't be. The Academy can become one. In Montreal, if we want to.compete, we.don't really have a choice.

The initial discussion was about OUR academy vs OUR draftees. I said you argument was flawed and based on highly subjective observations and not on quantifiable data. I even said you might end up being right even if the argument was deeply flawed. I said we would argue in circles because there was nothing tangible to.discuss in what you were arguing (and we are, as you are now talking about DC United's past recruiting to defend your initial claim).

Don't imagine contradictions that aren't there.
 
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JunglePete

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Off topic but here are some American prospects playing (Senior or U23 teams) that were draftees : Khiry Shelton, Patrick Mullins, Matt Polster, Tony Tchani, Perry Kitchen, Fatai Alashe, Steve Birnbaum, Eric Miller, Darlington Nagbe, Ethan Finlay.. even if he is Canadian we can add Cyle Larin.

Meanwhile you have some Academy players like Luis Gil and Shane O'Neill who showed promising talent but were dropped from their respective teams.

I'm just saying that players from colleges more than often have an impact way before academy graduates. It's been proven. You (not you precisely) complain about not having good results or not playing the best players, but we can't do any sort of favoritism. You want your team to win games asap? we play the best available players (but don't expect many academy players).

Also, I would rather take a 20 year old Center back drafted that has no job from College over a 20 year from the Academy. College teams are filled with national team youth players, sometimes even senior, they play more games (because they play games of their school + USL PDL games)
 

JunglePete

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I do not have the time to do the analysis, but I am not wrong about the trend.

I am not arguing which one is performing better right now. I am saying we should prioritize the academy because the chances of success are greater (mainly because you OWN the rights of the guys you invest in - you know them better so there is less randomness. The draft isn't a primary source of recruiting (contrary to the NHL or.the NFL) and shouldn't be. The Academy can become one. In Montreal, if we want to.compete, we.don't really have a choice.

The initial discussion was about OUR academy vs OUR draftees. I said you argument was flawed and based on highly subjective observations and not on quantifiable data. I even said you might end up being right even if the argument was deeply flawed. I said we would argue in circles because there was nothing tangible to.discuss in what you were arguing (and we are, as you are now talking about DC United's past recruiting to defend your initial claim).

Don't imagine contradictions that aren't there.

Look, we can argue back and forth but my point is only that at the moment our draftees, whether they still play with us or not are better than our academy (as a whole), so downgrading or potential downgrading the draft in general is purely foolish.
 

Luigi Habs

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Look, we can argue back and forth but my point is only that at the moment our draftees, whether they still play with us or not are better than our academy (as a whole).

Of course they're not because the academy is still too young.

The academy will give you the opportunity to hit a homerun and develop a future MLS star who could be Europe bound. The likes of Omar Gonzalez, Yedlin, Miazga you will never find them through the draft.
 

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JordanStaal#1Fan
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Look, we can argue back and forth but my point is only that at the moment our draftees, whether they still play with us or not are better than our academy (as a whole), so downgrading or potential downgrading the draft in general is purely foolish.

As I said, the draft has its importance, but it shouldn't be ZE priority. The guys coming out of the draft are 22-23. Academy players you train from the time they are 8. Way more.time.to assess their potential with more accuracy ;)

As for right now, I disagree with your method of assessment, not necessarily with your conclusion.

I mean Williams ahead of AJH based.on what exactly? A preseason game? You might end up being right, but your sample is.wrong.
 

JunglePete

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Of course they're not because the academy is still too young.

The academy will give you the opportunity to hit a homerun and develop a future MLS star who could be Europe bound. The likes of Omar Gonzalez, Yedlin, Miazga you will never find them through the draft.

If only Gonzalez was an academy product :laugh:

btw Yedlin spent time in college so he doesn't really count as a pure academy player. Miazga is a good one, so is Wallace, Matt Hedges, Ethan Finlay, Kelyn Rowe (draftees). I really don't see the 'proof' of that. Juan Agudelo, an academy player went to Europe and came back. EDIT : Matt Besler, Graham Zusi, 2 WC Veterans, are MLS Draftees and Designated Players . They rejected BPL offers and many European Offers, so yes they are Europe quality. I find what you said a bit insulting too, towards the draftees.

Lefevre is frikin 27, Tissot will turn 24.... How is that too young ?

As I said, the draft has its importance, but it shouldn't be ZE priority. The guys coming out of the draft are 22-23. Academy players you train from the time they are 8. Way more.time.to assess their potential with more accuracy ;)

As for right now, I disagree with your method of assessment, not necessarily with your conclusion.

I mean Williams ahead of AJH based.on what exactly? A preseason game? You might end up being right, but your sample is.wrong.

I never said that the draft should be a priority just not neglected. If you bash the draft then you are in no way capable of cheering for guys like Porter, Salazar, Fisher when they start doing well. There are players who are 18-19 and are drafted. There is no age limit.

Williams is ahead of AJH based on that **** AJH showed this pre-season.
 
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Luigi Habs

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If only Gonzalez was an academy product :laugh:

btw Yedlin spent time in college so he doesn't really count as a pure academy player. Miazga is a good one, so is Wallace, Matt Hedges, Ethan Finlay, Kelyn Rowe (draftees). I really don't see the 'proof' of that. Juan Agudelo, an academy player went to Europe and came back.
Lefevre is frikin 27, Tissot will turn 24.... How is that too young ?



I never said that the draft should be a priority just not neglected. If you bash the draft then you are in no way capable of cheering for guys like Porter, Salazar, Fisher when they start doing well. There are players who are 18-19 and are drafted. There is no age limit.

My bad I thought Omar was an academy product but my point still stands. You have a much better chance forming a future star than drafting one. And yes Yedlin definitely cohnts.

More than 5 years ago yes the pool of players that went through college was a lot more promising but today most young kids are going through academies. Academies are the future for MLS. And don't forget that the MLS superdraft you're supposed to draft a finished product because most are 22-23 years old.
 

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JordanStaal#1Fan
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My bad I thought Omar was an academy product but my point still stands. You have a much better chance forming a future star than drafting one. And yes Yedlin definitely cohnts.

More than 5 years ago yes the pool of players that went through college was a lot more promising but today most young kids are going through academies. Academies are the future for MLS. And don't forget that the MLS superdraft you're supposed to draft a finished product because most are 22-23 years old.

Thank you.
 

JunglePete

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My bad I thought Omar was an academy product but my point still stands. You have a much better chance forming a future star than drafting one. And yes Yedlin definitely cohnts.

More than 5 years ago yes the pool of players that went through college was a lot more promising but today most young kids are going through academies. Academies are the future for MLS. And don't forget that the MLS superdraft you're supposed to draft a finished product because most are 22-23 years old.

This is exactly what has not been proven, yet. People think we will get a Messi just because we have an Academy... smh. The academy system is getting better so are the college programs. And NO it isn't true that all the 'good talents' will go through academies. See you thought Omar was from an Academy. Nope Yedlin didn't even stay one year at the academy and decided against being in the draft, same for Morris. They both spent more time with their college team than Seattle Sounders academy. But because it looks more 'European' they will be considered as Sounders academy product.

You say more than 5 years ago, but how about the 2015 Draft ? Cyle Larin looks better than all our of Academy products combined and maybe our future prospects for the next 5 years.
 

gelu88

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Development in MLS is under a profound state of change right now. the vast majority of quality Americans used to go to College, and then on to the draft (with Generation Adidas contracts if they are very good).

But the massive investment in academies league wide, which only began in earnest about 5 years ago, will assuredly have an affect.

Right now I would say we should lean 70/30 towards the draft, but year over year this is expected to shift. Not only because the Impact academy will improve (our U16's and U18's show enormous potential) but because the draft itself is going to get weaker.

All over the league, players are forgoing college scholarships because their local academies are finally at a level where they choose to stay. The best MLS academies are spending at EPL levels, and they type of investment is almost certain to result in serious talent league wide sooner rather than later.

Edit: Larin is a product of Sigma academy, which is interestingly rumored to become the academy of the future Hamilton Canadian Premiere league team. He went to college despite getting serious offers from TFC to join their academy. I expect that calculation to shift as well.

Edit: dammit, I leave for 20 minutes and everyone made the same points I was...
 

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JordanStaal#1Fan
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Development in MLS is under a profound state of change right now. the vast majority of quality Americans used to go to College, and then on to the draft (with Generation Adidas contracts if they are very good).

But the massive investment in academies league wide, which only began in earnest about 5 years ago, will assuredly have an affect.

Right now I would say we should lean 70/30 towards the draft, but year over year this is expected to shift. Not only because the Impact academy will improve (our U16's and U18's show enormous potential) but because the draft itself is going to get weaker.



All over the league, players are forgoing college scholarships because their local academies are finally at a level where they choose to stay. The best MLS academies are spending at EPL levels, and they type of investment is almost certain to result in serious talent league wide sooner rather than later.

Thank you!
 

JunglePete

Registered User
Jul 21, 2012
6,908
651
Development in MLS is under a profound state of change right now. the vast majority of quality Americans used to go to College, and then on to the draft (with Generation Adidas contracts if they are very good).

But the massive investment in academies league wide, which only began in earnest about 5 years ago, will assuredly have an affect.

Right now I would say we should lean 70/30 towards the draft, but year over year this is expected to shift. Not only because the Impact academy will improve (our U16's and U18's show enormous potential) but because the draft itself is going to get weaker.

All over the league, players are forgoing college scholarships because their local academies are finally at a level where they choose to stay. The best MLS academies are spending at EPL levels, and they type of investment is almost certain to result in serious talent league wide sooner rather than later.

Edit: Larin is a product of Sigma academy, which is interestingly rumored to become the academy of the future Hamilton Canadian Premiere league team. He went to college despite getting serious offers from TFC to join their academy. I expect that calculation to shift as well.

Edit: dammit, I leave for 20 minutes and everyone made the same points I was...

Well, I'm far from saying that academies are useless and talentless... My point was simply that we, IMFC, aren't able to say FOR NOW, 'screw the draft, we have an academy'. Not to kill your vibe but being good at U16's or U18's doesn't mean good at senior. Maybe the best players will leave for Europe, too. You have to take that into consideration.

Lol Larin is a product of Sigma academy, Alright name me one more player from that same 'academy' ? I bet he got better in college. Notice too, that despite being possibly the best young Canadian talent, he never got called up for youth teams, before playing for the senior team. So yes, that shows some talent go unnoticed.

You also have to remember that Draftees players aren't 95% American anymore and many European/African/Asian players go to American colleges to play soccer.

Some prospects for 2017 MLS Draft you guys should check out :
Abu Danladi
Jeremy Ebobisse
Nick DePuy
Tanner Thompson(brother of Tommy Thompson)
Tim Kubel (Borussia Dortmund Academy player)
Jackson Yueill
 

gelu88

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Sep 12, 2011
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Brossard, QC
Richie Laryea

Followed almost exactly in the same footsteps as Larin.

raised by Sigma as a teen, 2 years with University of Akron, picked 7th in the MLS draft


But anyways, there are many people out there every year that say we should abolish the draft entirely, I'm not one of them.

Even decades from now when academies are running at their potential, there will be late bloomers and kids that slip through the cracks that will still go to college. The Draft will remain useful for the diamond in the rough in that sense.


But you can't oversell it either. Duane Rollins yearly draft analysis is require reading on this topic:

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/i...e-superdraft-by-the-numbers-2016-update-r5534

The top ~10 are likely to be "successful", but after that the numbers show it's basically a crapshoot. Sometimes you get lucky (and we seem to have gotten lucky the last 2 years) but sometimes all your picks are busts.

They both have their strengths and weaknesses, and in my opinion it'll be 50/50 for at least a few years to come.
 

Laurent

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Apr 9, 2010
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Let me settle this like I did 3ish years ago


"Wow this Acadamy kid Jackson-Hamel is really dominant. He's going to be a great player"

AJH=Going to be a great player
Romario = Going to be a good MLS player

Great Player > Good MLS Player

Thus, AJH>Romario /end
 
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