Value of: Monahan and Savard to Jersey

[TBF1972]

Why are you wasting thread space and the reader's time posting on this thread?Nothing useful to add to the conversation.

i answered op's indirect question with my pov. an injury riddled team shouldn't try to fix things by adding two injury riddled over top players.

what exactly was your post contributing to the topic of this thread?

 

[TBF1972]

And how did the team that paid a first for Chiarot feel about that purchase?

as a devils fan i will compare now everything against the hall trade and the trades, in which we acquired marino and siegenthaler and say that's value fitz gets in trades he makes.

certified
proven

 

[HugeInTheShire]

Added some context to expand your mind.

OK, how about this

Player 1 has 17 5v5 points and spends an average of 18:23 per game on the ice
Player 2 has 25 5v5 points and spends an average of 13:52 per game on the ice

We can do this all day, you can lie and say that Monahan "plays with scrubs" and that somehow Foegele plays on a line with McDavid or Drai instead of McLeod and Janmark

Lets take a look at who else was on the scoresheet when Monahan collected his 3 points last night.
Suzuki from Slaf and Monahan
Monahan from Matheson and Montombeault
Monahan from Anderson and Caufield

I guess Suzuki is overrated and not one of the "best 2 way centers in the game"
Slaf is in fact a bust,
Matheson isn't worth a 1st
Anderson isn't worth 2OA or a 1st plus
Caufield isn't a "perennial 50 goal scorer"

You're right, he plays with scrubs.

We can do this all day, you can come up with something to pump your guy up and I can make him look average. He's a decent player, and while he is worth more than Warren Foegele, he's not close to Elias Lindholm in value, even as a rental. Even though most teams acquiring Lindholm will try and sign him long term and Monahan will likely be a pure rental.

 

[waitin425]

OK, how about this

Player 1 has 17 5v5 points and spends an average of 18:23 per game on the ice
Player 2 has 25 5v5 points and spends an average of 13:52 per game on the ice

We can do this all day, you can lie and say that Monahan "plays with scrubs" and that somehow Foegele plays on a line with McDavid or Drai instead of McLeod and Janmark

Lets take a look at who else was on the scoresheet when Monahan collected his 3 points last night.
Suzuki from Slaf and Monahan
Monahan from Matheson and Montombeault
Monahan from Anderson and Caufield

I guess Suzuki is overrated and not one of the "best 2 way centers in the game"
Slaf is in fact a bust,
Matheson isn't worth a 1st
Anderson isn't worth 2OA or a 1st plus
Caufield isn't a "perennial 50 goal scorer"

You're right, he plays with scrubs.

We can do this all day, you can come up with something to pump your guy up and I can make him look average. He's a decent player, and while he is worth more than Warren Foegele, he's not close to Elias Lindholm in value, even as a rental. Even though most teams acquiring Lindholm will try and sign him long term and Monahan will likely be a pure rental.

You argue that Monahan is not close to Elias Lindholm by comparing Monahan to Warren Foegele. Interesting strategy. For the record, if you backtrack, I never brought Foegele into this conversation in the first place. I simply responded to chaotic bringing him up, and gave an estimation on what his value is, from my opinion.

How is Monahan "not close" to Lindholm. Please use big boy arguments please and in addition define "not close"

All things considered, I fail to see how you can make that argument in any sort of good faith when applying objective facts like, stats and cap hit.

 

[McSuper]

He is a star centre compared to5th liners like Huala and Lazar. Hughes and Hischier are pretty fragile. I wouldn't depend on them to make it through the playoffs. I would want another scoring line centre. Monahan would be cheaper than Lindholm.

You what? RNH would be cheaper to acquire than Draisaitl if Edmonton was rebuilding. The reason if you don't know the difference, one is a good 2nd liner and the other is an elite player.

Lindholm is a defensive minded low end 1st liner high end 2nd liner.

Manahan is a low end 2nd liner or a good 3rd line that misses a lot of games each year.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Except he's never had good advanced numbers despite playing with some very good players in the past.

Do any of the Habs forwards have good advanced numbers?

 

[Voight]

He is a star centre compared to5th liners like Huala and Lazar. Hughes and Hischier are pretty fragile. I wouldn't depend on them to make it through the playoffs. I would want another scoring line centre. Monahan would be cheaper than Lindholm.

Lindholm is 10x the player Monahan is.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

You argue that Monahan is not close to Elias Lindholm by comparing Monahan to Warren Foegele. Interesting strategy. For the record, if you backtrack, I never brought Foegele into this conversation in the first place. I simply responded to chaotic bringing him up, and gave an estimation on what his value is, from my opinion.

How is Monahan "not close" to Lindholm. Please use big boy arguments please and in addition define "not close"

All things considered, I fail to see how you can make that argument in any sort of good faith when applying objective facts like, stats and cap hit.

Like I previously stated, any team acquiring Monahan will likely look at him as a pure rental whereas any team acquiring Lindholm will be looking to get him with an extension in place or will be actively trying to sign him to one. This changes values drastically.

An extension is a contract a player signs to stay with a team for longer than the current half season left. A rental is a player that a team will acquire for the rest of the season only.

Not close means the team getting Monahan is likely to give up a 2nd or 3rd and prospect at the absolute most. The team that gets Lindholm will be paying a 1st plus prospects or more picks for him.
Draft picks are the the things that teams use to get draft eligible players on draft day and the lower the number the better the draft pick is.

I hope these words were "big boy" enough for you to understand as I don't think I can dumb it down much more.

 

[McSuper]

You argue that Monahan is not close to Elias Lindholm by comparing Monahan to Warren Foegele. Interesting strategy. For the record, if you backtrack, I never brought Foegele into this conversation in the first place. I simply responded to chaotic bringing him up, and gave an estimation on what his value is, from my opinion.

How is Monahan "not close" to Lindholm. Please use big boy arguments please and in addition define "not close"

All things considered, I fail to see how you can make that argument in any sort of good faith when applying objective facts like, stats and cap hit.

It isn't hard. Lindholm is way way better defensively and that is his focus.

Just so you know Monahan is someone I would like the Oilers to add as their 3rd line C so this isn't meant to bash him in anyway.

 

[waitin425]

Like I previously stated, any team acquiring Monahan will likely look at him as a pure rental whereas any team acquiring Lindholm will be looking to get him with an extension in place or will be actively trying to sign him to one. This changes values drastically.

An extension is a contract a player signs to stay with a team for longer than the current half season left. A rental is a player that a team will acquire for the rest of the season only.

Not close means the team getting Monahan is likely to give up a 2nd or 3rd and prospect at the absolute most. The team that gets Lindholm will be paying a 1st plus prospects or more picks for him.
Draft picks are the the things that teams use to get draft eligible players on draft day and the lower the number the better the draft pick is.

I hope these words were "big boy" enough for you to understand as I don't think I can dumb it down much more.

I agree with the bolded and referenced a sign and trade in an earlier post. That changes things for sure. But as it stands today (without a sign and trade), which has been my point, there is very little difference in their value. Monahan has more points, a better faceoff percentage and is extremely cheaper. I as a GM signing a rental, would take Monahan. Sign and trade is the game changer though, agreed.

 

[pth2]

You argue that Monahan is not close to Elias Lindholm by comparing Monahan to Warren Foegele.

This reminds me of an article in The Onion around 2003, entitled "We need to invade Irak because North Korea has nuclear weapons."

Like I previously stated, any team acquiring Monahan will likely look at him as a pure rental whereas any team acquiring Lindholm will be looking to get him with an extension in place or will be actively trying to sign him to one. This changes values drastically.

Well, it all depends on a what a team wants in the long run... building a hockey team isn't just collecting pieces, and a team might well want to rent a guy for the playoffs, the goal being to ice a better team than they could field over a full season (because of the salary cap), so a pure rental can be more interesting for some teams.

The fact that building a hockey team isn't the same as accumulating marbles might be too complicated for some, though.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Do any of the Habs forwards have good advanced numbers?

Yeah, Suzuki's relative xG numbers are very good.

Out of the 14 Habs forwards with >200 5v5 mins, Monahan ranks:

10th in xG%
11th in rel xG%
13th in xGA/60
13th in rel xGA/60

So his numbers aren't just bad because he's on a bad team.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

Well, it all depends on a what a team wants in the long run... building a hockey team isn't just collecting pieces, and a team might well want to rent a guy for the playoffs, the goal being to ice a better team than they could field over a full season (because of the salary cap), so a pure rental can be more interesting for some teams.

The fact that building a hockey team isn't the same as accumulating marbles might be too complicated for some, though.

Sure it depends on a teams need, that fact doesn't change the fact that teams will pay more for players they want around beyond this season than they will for rentals.
This is a discussion about why Lindholm has more value than Monahan, Montreal fans think think they have basically the same value, everyone else knows they don't.

I didn't think it would be so hard for people to understand, but I guess I expect too much from a fanbase that thought they could get 2OA + for Josh Anderson.

 

[pth2]

Sure it depends on a teams need, that fact doesn't change the fact that teams will pay more for players they want around beyond this season than they will for rentals.
This is a discussion about why Lindholm has more value than Monahan, Montreal fans think think they have basically the same value, everyone else knows they don't.

I didn't think it would be so hard for people to understand, but I guess I expect too much from a fanbase that thought they could get 2OA + for Josh Anderson.

Painting a whole fanbase with the same brush is kind of like thinking a hockey team is built by collecting a lot of shiny marbles: childish.

Now... tell me.... why would a team that doesn't want to extend a player pay more for them than they would for a pure rental? Because that was the point you were trying (and failing) to make.

 

[The Great Weal]

I didn't think it would be so hard for people to understand, but I guess I expect too much from a fanbase that thought they could get 2OA + for Josh Anderson.

You're right, every single Habs fan genuinely thought 2nd OA+Mercer+Hughes was worth Anderson+Gallagher+Armia. If one deluded fan says that then that means every one of their fans think that too.

Yeah, Suzuki's relative xG numbers are very good.

But you told us he wasn't that good and that KK was better? What happened to that?

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

But you told us he wasn't that good

Yeah, he doesn't have to be that good to be better than Monahan.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

Painting a whole fanbase with the same brush is kind of like thinking a hockey team is built by collecting a lot of shiny marbles: childish.

Now... tell me.... why would a team that doesn't want to extend a player pay more for them than they would for a pure rental? Because that was the point you were trying (and failing) to make.

If a team doesn't want to extend a player, doesn't that make them a rental?
No teams do not pay more for rentals than they do for players they want to extend. This isn't new, this isn't groundbreaking. This is simply a fact.

I think you're trying and failing to make any kind of coherent argument.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Sure it depends on a teams need, that fact doesn't change the fact that teams will pay more for players they want around beyond this season than they will for rentals.
This is a discussion about why Lindholm has more value than Monahan, Montreal fans think think they have basically the same value, everyone else knows they don't.

I didn't think it would be so hard for people to understand, but I guess I expect too much from a fanbase that thought they could get 2OA + for Josh Anderson.

Nobody thinks Monahan and Lindholm have the same value.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

You're right, every single Habs fan genuinely thought 2nd OA+Mercer+Hughes was worth Anderson+Gallagher+Armia. If one deluded fan says that then that means every one of their fans think that too.

Yep that's what I said, every single Hab fans said that!

If you want me to once again dumb it down for Montreal fans, when I said that the Montreal fanbase thought that Anderson was worth 2OA, I didn't mean that EVERY Montreal fan thought that. You'd think that at least one of you guys in this thread would be able to comprehend even the easiest of nuances in the English language.

 

[pth2]

If a team doesn't want to extend a player, doesn't that make them a rental?
No teams do not pay more for rentals than they do for players they want to extend. This isn't new, this isn't groundbreaking. This is simply a fact.

I think you're trying and failing to make any kind of coherent argument.

Well, it's hard to coherently argue with incoherent haters.

Thank god for the Ignore button.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

Nobody thinks Monahan and Lindholm have the same value.

I actually think he would be a more valuable player than Lindholm

Really? It's right there

Well, it's hard to coherently argue with incoherent haters.

Thank god for the Ignore button.

You should be nicer to yourself

 

[Habs10025]

New Jersy are not true contenders shouldn't give up draft picks or prospects in any trade

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Really? It's right there

More valuable player does not equal more value in trade.

Gallagher is a more valuable player than Armia but Armia has more value due to his contract. In both cases its negative value. Gallagher has less negative value!

 

[waitin425]

Really? It's right there

Yes, right there. It sure is.

Current play + length of contract left + cap hit = greater value in my eyes.

Value is a combination of those things.

Current play
Monahan >= Lindstrom

UFA at end of season
Monahan = Lindstrom

Cap hit
Monahan >>>> Lindstrom

Change any of those dynamics and invite me to re-evalute. Until that time.......I still fail to see logic in arguing against this.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

More valuable player does not equal more value in trade.

Gallagher is a more valuable player than Armia but Armia has more value due to his contract. In both cases its negative value. Gallagher has less negative value!

I guess I should have included more of the quote, He says this

I'm kind of confused. What exactly do you mean? Is your team not Edmonton? Why would you sell Foegele? Any time I have watched him, he looks like a fast dynamic complementary piece. He has what 26ish points off the top of my head. Decent Cap hit. UFA next year. I don't think he would bring in a top 15 pick (I can sense your attempt at sarcasm) but if you decided to sell him, I am sure you would get an okay return. Nothing close to Monahan mind you.....but probably a late 2nd or 3rd rd pick. Not bad for a bottom 6 winger.

Let me get you back on track with Monahan. Position + production + cap hit (this is a big one IMHO) is why I actually think he would be a more valuable player than Lindholm at the TDL. A reasonable sign and trade for Lindholm may bring a better return (I can concede that). But right now, as a pure rental for the remainder of the season, with all things being equal, the significant (to use your term), difference in cost per production between the two puts Monahan above.

Do you think you can try and form a cogent argument without sarcasm now?

Yes, right there. It sure is.

Current play + length of contract left + cap hit = greater value in my eyes.

Value is a combination of those things.

Current play
Monahan >= Lindstrom

UFA at end of season
Monahan = Lindstrom

Cap hit
Monahan >>>> Lindstrom

Change any of those dynamics and invite me to re-evalute. Until that time.......I still fail to see logic in arguing against this.

So you read one of my comments and jumped in.

The entire time I've been saying that a team would rent Monahan and sign Lindholm, this drastically changes one of your dynamics.
Edit: I see you're the original post referenced, my bad.