Mo Rielly - "Our Norris Trophy Candidate"

[Faltorvo]

I wouldn’t go spending a ton of energy trying to replace him but if the upgrade presented itself in an obvious way in the next year before we re-sign him I would take a look.

Put it another way. When we have a guy like Matthews who is cream of the crop top handful of centres in the game, an idea of an upgrade doesn’t even cross my mind. But Rielly would be a step or two down from that at his position, I keep an open mind.

the list a players that would be upgrade is ridiculously short

and since MO bleeds blue and white i make that list even shorter

 

[Doublerum1975]

He’s above average defence player with great offensive skills what are people complaining about?

 

[Bomber0104]

the list a players that would be upgrade is ridiculously short

and since MO bleeds blue and white i make that list even shorter

The scarcity of capable defensive defencemen with offensive upside to contribute is ridiculous.

You absolutely have to grow your own in today's NHL.

This has been a franchise weakness for decades and I'd rather not see another casualty here with Rielly.

 

[Stephen]

And my whole point is that his three small errors are nothing and that going after Rielly for this goal is total nonsense.

There are two seconds of real time between your first screenshot and the last one where the puck is in the net, 8:24 to 8:26 on the clock. It's already 8:25 on the clock in the 2nd image.

Perry has agency in this play, he's using his body to shield the puck. You can see in images 2-5 that Perry does a full body rotation to shield Rielly off as he swipes at the puck. With one step of acceleration, you're expecting Morgan Rielly to knock Corey Perry off his skates in front of the net? Even while taking a cross checking penalty, Jake Muzzin couldn't knock Perry down before he stuffed that in. Corey Perry won a freaking Hart Trophy collecting the garbage like this, he knows how to brace himself, and you want Morgan Rielly to come from a dead standstill to knock him on his face in 1 second? Sorry, but those expectations are completely detached from reality.

The errors that I describe in the play and that you're arguing with me about are essentially irrelevant to the fact that the play actually ended up in the back of the net. Brodie doesn't move his feet at all in any of the images you posted, and is the one who let Perry get inside like that in the first place. Campbell let out the rebound, wasn't fast enough to get the puck, and then wasn't strong enough on the rebound to smother it. Hockey players make mistakes, it happens to the best of them, and Corey Perry has banged in the trash his entire career. Watching a James Van Riemsdyk goals video on youtube will turn up dozens of clips of similar plays getting banged past Norris trophy winners.

I'm not trying to sell Rielly as good defensively, I'm more than willing to be honest about the strengths and weaknesses of our players. Rielly is the weakest of our top4 defensively. But I will absolutely stand up and defend him from obvious agenda posting and getting blamed for things that aren't his fault. If your argument is essentially, "Rielly isn't a Norris calibre defenseman" I mean sure. I'm not really in the camp that he is one. But I absolutely 100% believe that the expectations people have of what Norris calibre defense looks like is completely different than what it really does. If anything, I think that going after Rielly for imperceptible mistakes to make your point weakens the argument because it's obvious you're holding him under a microscope that you don't have out for other players.

I think if you look at it broadly we are pretty much on the same page as Rielly. Weakest of the top four defensively, good to great offensive puck rushing defenseman and maybe a little bit weak as a dynamic PP QB with processing weaknesses.

I’m not trying to run him out of town but I am trying to look at him critically and assess from an armchair GM point of view. Don’t feel especially protective of him and I don’t care to label him as a Norris caliber D.

Big picture, he plays a critical position and his contract has 1.5 years left on it, feels like his game didn’t take off after the 72 point season and Hamilton and Jones are on the free agency horizon with limited cap dollars to spend. And a team like Colorado who could be one of the next generation cup contenders against us are absolutely stacked on D.

 

[zeke]

I think if you look at it broadly we are pretty much on the same page as Rielly. Weakest of the top four defensively,

This doesn't actually say much - brodie, muzz, and holl are all really really good defensively, and there's more than a few "elite #1" dmen that would also be the weakest of our top 4 defensively.

 

[Stephen]

This doesn't actually say much - brodie, muzz, and holl are all really really good defensively, and there's more than a few "elite #1" dmen that would also be the weakest of our top 4 defensively.

You wouldn’t say that about a Norris Trophy winner. Although it was very weird when you tried to insinuate Tampa plays Cernak and McDonagh and shelters Hedman.

 

[zeke]

You wouldn’t say that about a Norris Trophy winner. Although it was very weird when you tried to insinuate Tampa plays Cernak and McDonagh and shelters Hedman.

Why was it weird when it's true?

Hedman has always been much more sheltered than Mo. This is the first year Mo has received comparable usage to Hedman - and unsurprisingly mo's analytics are far better than Herman's this year as a result.

 

[LeafGrief]

I think if you look at it broadly we are pretty much on the same page as Rielly. Weakest of the top four defensively, good to great offensive puck rushing defenseman and maybe a little bit weak as a dynamic PP QB with processing weaknesses.

I’m not trying to run him out of town but I am trying to look at him critically and assess from an armchair GM point of view. Don’t feel especially protective of him and I don’t care to label him as a Norris caliber D.

Big picture, he plays a critical position and his contract has 1.5 years left on it, feels like his game didn’t take off after the 72 point season and Hamilton and Jones are on the free agency horizon with limited cap dollars to spend. And a team like Colorado who could be one of the next generation cup contenders against us are absolutely stacked on D.

I do feel that we're probably not that far apart overall, which is why I'm surprised to see you bumped the thread to go after him for a goal that wasn't noticeably his fault. Hamilton for sure isn't going to be any better defensively and Jones is getting caved in this year. I don't see why we'd look to go with a new player when the one we've got does the job that we need done just fine. Hamilton is going to cost more than Rielly thanks to offensive production and Jones is going to command a huge price tag based on name recognition alone, while being weaker than Rielly offensively. Rielly's weaknesses are known to management as are his strengths, and for the same reasons that he never took the next step after the 72 point season his next contract shouldn't be a backbreaker.

Colorado is stacked on D, but we've built ourselves around having Matthews and Tavares down the middle. Tampa is stacked up the middle and on the blueline (especially if they pull of this Savard deal) but they've leveraged just about every darn future asset they have to go for immediate success. It's not surprising that teams built differently than us are going to be slightly better in different spots.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I dunno....he reminds me of a left shooting Shattenkirk....gets PP points and doesn't have a clue how to play in his own end. I would think just from osmosis that he would be able to pick up who to cover and when to pinch from other guys...but alas it seems that he did not.

 

[Puckstuff]

Quite a thing to say about our coach.

First in TOI/G makes him #1 with ice time it doesn't make him a # 1 defensmen which I would describe as someone who is elite in all areas of the game including defence, shooting. Rielly has a lot of utility use like his skating, puck moving and offence and in those regards he's elite. There are some major flaws though. He lacks the basic ability to even defend 2 on 1's. A #1 to me is someone like Hedman, Makar prime Doughty etc, Josi. There are few elite #1 d-men but if we change the term of what a #1 d-man is then sure, but he's not close to a Hedman, Makar, Josi, etc or someone who I would want as my #1. But for what he does do (elite skating, moving the puck, driving offence) he has great utility use and he's a useful player jut not a #1 in how I would define it.

 

[zeke]

First in TOI/G makes him #1 with ice time it doesn't make him a # 1 defensmen which I would describe as someone who is elite in all areas of the game including defence, puck moving, shooting. Rielly has a lot of utility use like his skating, puck moving and offence in those regards are elite. There are some major flaws though. He lacks the basic ability to even defend 2 on 1's. A #1 to me is someone like Hedman, Makar prime Doughty etc, Josi. There are few elite #1 d-men but if we change the term of what a #1 d-man is then sure, but he's not close to a Hedman, Makaer, Josi, Makar etc or someone who I would want as my #1. But for what he does do (elite skating, moving the puck, driving offence) he has great utility use and he's a useful player jut not a #1 in how I would define it.

Hedman's not all that good defensively, and McDonagh-Cernak is their matchup shutdown pair.

Josi as well - it's the Ekholm pairing that gets the shutdown duty, not the Josi pairing.

Makar? All offense at this point.

 

[Puckstuff]

Hedman's not all that good defensively, and McDonagh-Cernak is their matchup shutdown pair.

He can defend 2 on 1's, stay in position, handle guys in front of the net. He's much better then Rielly.

 

[zeke]

He can defend 2 on 1's, stay in position, handle guys in front of the net. He's much better then Rielly.

Well, Rielly is on the ice for fewer goals against than Hedman, in similar usage.

 

[Doublerum1975]

People need to watch other games these so called elite number one defenceman all make mistakes

 

[Puckstuff]

Well, Rielly is on the ice for fewer goals against than Hedman, in similar usage.

He also plays with T.J Brodie who saves him consistently. Do you think Rielly is better then Hedman?

 

[zeke]

He also plays with T.J Brodie who saves him consistently. Do you think Rielly is better then Hedman?

Yeah for the first time in his career, Rielly finally has a legit quality top4 dman to play beside him. Leafs forced him to play elite matchups while carrying hainsey and ceci and Barrie and hunwick and the corpse of phaneuf.

Whereas your Norris trophy guys have always had good d partners, even in their easier matchups.

 

[Gary Nylund]

He’s above average defence player with great offensive skills what are people complaining about?

Excellent question. It's either that he's not a Norris winner, or he's not Hedman or Pietrangelo, or he's been a part of a few game 7 losses or he's to blame for some goal we gave up. It's in there somewhere I guess but I dunno, seems like a bunch of whining about nothing to me. Guy's not perfect, he's not even Norris caliber but he is way above average and we're lucky to have him.

 

[Gallagbi]

You wouldn’t say that about a Norris Trophy winner. Although it was very weird when you tried to insinuate Tampa plays Cernak and McDonagh and shelters Hedman.

They don't shelter Hedman, but he doesn't take the tough matchup. That's for McDonagh.

There's also been some pretty weak defenders who have won a Norris. The year Subban won is a pretty good example, but I'd say he was still more capable defensively than Mo. Karlsson was also pretty weak defensively, but his offensive talents gave him more freedom and role than Mo.

 

[zeke]

They don't shelter Hedman, but he doesn't take the tough matchup. That's for McDonagh.

There's also been some pretty weak defenders who have won a Norris. The year Subban won is a pretty good example, but I'd say he was still more capable defensively than Mo. Karlsson was also pretty weak defensively, but his offensive talents gave him more freedom and role than Mo.

Funny thing is most every Norris winner wasn't on his team's top matchup pair.

This is the first year since his sophomore year that rielly hasn't been on the top matchup pairing AND the first year he has had a legit quality d partner.

And surprise surprise, suddenly his nerd stats look very very good.

 

[ICBM]

Rielly vs Hedman.

Hedman wins the cup. Point per game in the playoffs. Rielly loses to Columbus. 1 point in 5 games.

What a winner! Give him the cup already.

 

[zeke]

Rielly vs Hedman.

Hedman wins the cup. Point per game in the playoffs. Rielly loses to Columbus. 1 point in 5 games.

What a winner! Give him the cup already.

Hedman playoffs prior to winning a cup at age 30:

84gms, 24:44, 7gls, 48pts (7gl/47pt pace)

Rielly playoffs by age 25:

25gms, 24:58, 3gls, 16pts (10gl/53pt pace)

 

[zeke]

And lmao rielly did that playing with Phaneuf hunwick hainsey and ceci.

 

[Stephen]

They don't shelter Hedman, but he doesn't take the tough matchup. That's for McDonagh.

There's also been some pretty weak defenders who have won a Norris. The year Subban won is a pretty good example, but I'd say he was still more capable defensively than Mo. Karlsson was also pretty weak defensively, but his offensive talents gave him more freedom and role than Mo.

Fair point. Not all Norris Trophy winners are actually legitimate defenders from year to year. But I think when people envision the Norris caliber defender there’s a benchmark of defensive excellence among the field. But in terms of Hedman he is absolutely that Norris Trophy unicorn.

 

[Doublerum1975]

Excellent question. It's either that he's not a Norris winner, or he's not Hedman or Pietrangelo, or he's been a part of a few game 7 losses or he's to blame for some goal we gave up. It's in there somewhere I guess but I dunno, seems like a bunch of whining about nothing to me. Guy's not perfect, he's not even Norris caliber but he is way above average and we're lucky to have him.

Remember Erik Carlson won the Norris so I wouldn’t say it’s outta reach lol

 

[Iapyi]

Well as far as I'm concerned we finally have a pretty strong d-corp and along with the overall defensive team play we've exhibited we're finally playing the right way {for the most part}.

Rielly is a big part of that and if we trade him we're going backward.

After this season he has one more year at $5M, whether one agrees or not that is a good price for what he brings overall.

There is also the aspect of him being NHL groomed by our team. He's 27 and not even in his prime yet and it would be absolutely stupid to move on from him now. I think he has another level to his game that he'll hit.

I'm not really to worried that we have any thoughts of doing anything other then re-signing him on an organizational level and a certain contingent of Maple Leaf fans always needing a whipping boy is just the way it is. I'm just so happy our team still doesn't bow to The Impatient Fan like we did for so long.