OT: MLB Thread XXIX: Marcus Stroman is a.....Met???

[RGY]

 

[nyr2k2]

Syndergaard is a pipe dream. The Mets aren't trading him to us. I think he's overrated anyway.

Even though the numbers haven't always matched the stuff, he's a 4-6 WAR guy if he stays healthy. That would put you in the top 15 or so pitchers every year. And the stuff--he might have the best pure stuff of any starter in the game. Given that's he's 26, he still has time to turn into the completely dominant, undisputed ace that he could be if he harnessed his stuff.

 

[LeetchisGod]

Even though the numbers haven't always matched the stuff, he's a 4-6 WAR guy if he stays healthy. That would put you in the top 15 or so pitchers every year. And the stuff--he might have the best pure stuff of any starter in the game. Given that's he's 26, he still has time to turn into the completely dominant, undisputed ace that he could be if he harnessed his stuff.

The results have never matched the stuff. He's also been injury prone.

 

[Bob Richards]

The results have never matched the stuff. He's also been injury prone.

Of course they have. Since 2015, he's been 12th in pitcher WAR for the entire league. His FIP is 5th in the league over that same time frame.

Injuries yes. That is valid.

 

[LeetchisGod]

Of course they have. Since 2015, he's been 12th in pitcher WAR for the entire league. His FIP is 5th in the league over that same time frame.

Injuries yes. That is valid.

He's had the worst season of his career this year. It's possible that the injuries have caught up to him.

 

[Bob Richards]

He's had the worst season of his career this year. It's possible that the injuries have caught up to him.

Pretty sure he's on pace for another 4 WAR season this year. His season since April has stabilized a lot better and his ERA gets inflated by the worst defense in the MLB.

 

[One Winged Angel]

IDK about the Cole situation which seems to constantly eat at Yankees fans, so I won't try to speculate there.

Any situation regarding making intradivision trades, or trades with geographic rivals, it's always going to be a premium ask. I mean the dumb-ass Mets wouldn't even entertain the idea of trading within the division or to the Yankess until, evidently, just recently. So, an over-ask on Stroman from TOR to NYY, I get. It sucks, but it is what it is.

The reality is, when you have a team loaded with All Star-caliber players at every position, and a farm system that has ranged from excellent to pretty good, teams are going to come in asking for the moon because they see the wealth of talent you have at your disposal. And if you don't want to give any of it up, or only the lesser pieces and not ML talent or really high-end minor league talent, teams will go elsewhere and negotiate. And eventually they'll settle for less than what they were reportedly asking from the Yankees, which is irrelevant because they knew they were never going to get their initial ask. What they expected to actually get from the Yankees is probably pretty close in line with what they end up getting elsewhere.

When the Sox got Sale, they gave up super-prospect Moncada, who people likened to a faster Cano, Kopech, who people compared to a young Thor, Basabe, a CFer with speed, defense, and pop (all in the Sox Top 10), and then a possible back-end reliever. They gave up some premium talent from their farm system, particularly Moncada who had legit potential to be a ****ing stud (which he is now showing). Sometimes you just gotta choke it down and let go of more than you want if you really want to get the guy to push you over the top.

Sale was a stud with control left on his deal. Cole wasn’t a stud and had less term left on his deal, as did Stroman.

Understandably so the return for Sale should have been that. Toronto asked for the sun and the moon from the Yankees, dealt him for 2 middling prospects from the Mets. Pirates dealt away Cole for crap after asking for gems from the Yankees and the Yankees aren’t even in the NL.

This isn’t something that just happened a couple of times, it happens a lot. The asking price is ALWAYS higher for the Yankees, if you actually keep track of it.

To even mention Torres or Garcia for Stroman is ridiculous when you’re going to accept that package from the Mets.

 

[nyr2k2]

He's had the worst season of his career this year. It's possible that the injuries have caught up to him.

He's 22nd in the league in bWAR. Ahead of guys like Bauer, Bumgarner, Nola, and on and on. A lot of guys are having down years with the massive explosion in home runs and scoring that's as high as it's been since the turn of the century. Has he inexplicably lost it, or is he just one of the guys having a tough year this year (while still posting top-20ish numbers)?

 

[LeetchisGod]

He's 22nd in the league in bWAR. Ahead of guys like Bauer, Bumgarner, Nola, and on and on. A lot of guys are having down years with the massive explosion in home runs and scoring that's as high as it's been since the turn of the century. Has he inexplicably lost it, or is he just one of the guys having a tough year this year (while still posting top-20ish numbers)?

This I agree with. The ball is definitely juiced. When guys like Austin Romine are hitting tape measure homers, something is up.

 

[nyr2k2]

Sale was a stud with control left on his deal. Cole wasn’t a stud and had less term left on his deal, as did Stroman.

Understandably so the return for Sale should have been that. Toronto asked for the sun and the moon from the Yankees, dealt him for 2 middling prospects from the Mets. Pirates dealt away Cole for crap after asking for gems from the Yankees and the Yankees aren’t even in the NL.

This isn’t something that just happened a couple of times, it happens a lot. The asking price is ALWAYS higher for the Yankees, if you actually keep track of it.

To even mention Torres or Garcia for Stroman is ridiculous when you’re going to accept that package from the Mets.

What if you keep track of the asking price for other teams? Because all I ever hear is the initial ask from the Yankees, and then complaints about what other teams ended up paying to close the deal. It leaves out the massive middle component--negotiations. Do you think the Toronto's initial ask from the Mets is what they ended up getting? Of course not, negotiations don't work that way.

IDK. The only people I ever see complaining that the Yankees are "unfairly" treated in negotiations are Yankees fans. I think you guys whip yourselves into a frenzy over nothing. Like, just recently, you did fine on the Paxton deal. Seemed like a smooth process there. All that stuff with Gray and the Mariners and Reds, that seemed painless. You didn't give up anything for McCutchen. The Lance Lynn deal was eminently fair. Happ? You guys make very fair trades all the damn time. It's like when you guys don't get some guy you want, and then read a Tweet that the other team asked for your top prospect or best young ML player (like they all do for everyone), you get all insulted and act like there's some sort of f***ing element colluding against the Yankees. I think you guys are just entitled, to be quite honest.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Yeah, Yankee fans complaining that the league is out to get them and that it's so hard for them to acquire players is like a billionaire complaining about the cost of jet fuel for their private jet or yacht.

 

[Thirty One]

Everything is louder for the Yankees. When other teams make a big ask, it always spills a bunch of ink. When the Yankees were selling Chapman, Miller and Beltran, I'm sure they started with ridiculous asks too.

Pittsburgh probably took less from the Astros for Cole because they're bad talent evaluators.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Everything is louder for the Yankees. When other teams make a big ask, it always spills a bunch of ink. When the Yankees were selling Chapman, Miller and Beltran, I'm sure they started with ridiculous asks too.

Pittsburgh probably took less from the Astros for Cole because they're bad talent evaluators.

This. Teams always start with asking for the moon in negotiations of trade pieces, no matter who they negotiate with. It's just that you hear more about those insane asks when it's arguably the biggest sports team in America vs smaller market teams.

 

[One Winged Angel]

What if you keep track of the asking price for other teams? Because all I ever hear is the initial ask from the Yankees, and then complaints about what other teams ended up paying to close the deal. It leaves out the massive middle component--negotiations. Do you think the Toronto's initial ask from the Mets is what they ended up getting? Of course not, negotiations don't work that way.

They never asked for Houston’s higher end guys for Cole and the negotiations didn’t go very long.

IDK. The only people I ever see complaining that the Yankees are "unfairly" treated in negotiations are Yankees fans. I think you guys whip yourselves into a frenzy over nothing. Like, just recently, you did fine on the Paxton deal. Seemed like a smooth process there. All that stuff with Gray and the Mariners and Reds, that seemed painless. You didn't give up anything for McCutchen. The Lance Lynn deal was eminently fair. Happ? You guys make very fair trades all the damn time. It's like when you guys don't get some guy you want, and then read a Tweet that the other team asked for your top prospect or best young ML player (like they all do for everyone), you get all insulted and act like there's some sort of ****ing element colluding against the Yankees. I think you guys are just entitled, to be quite honest.

Paxton, damaged goods. Extensive injury history. Gray, up and down #2/#3 guy. Lance Lynn? Come on, now you’re really reaching. McCutchen was old and past prime. The Mariners and Marlins were looking to dump salary with Encarnacion and Stanton respectively and the Yankees had the financial ability to take advantage of that and in Stanton’s case, he basically said he only wanted to be a Yankee or a Dodger and the Dodgers didn’t want to take on another big contract. You can’t tell me that if they weren’t eating the vast majority of salaries that they would have gotten those players for the returns they sent.

The sad part is that I have no problem with the Mets as a team. It’s their fans and fans saying things like Yankee fans are entitled for whatever reason. If Yankee fans are entitled, then Mets fans are miserable and misanthropical little brothers with inferiority complexes who can’t stand the sight of the Yankees success. Two can play this stereotype the entire fan base game.

 

[jerseyjinx94]

Part of the price you pay for having a good farm system is teams want your top prospects. If you are looking at prospect #5 or 6, and won't budge on the top 4, but this other team will give you 2 of its top 5, even if those 2 would be worse than your 5 or 6, then the other team looks better. It's just the reality of negotiating. You come off as unreasonable even if you're just trying not to overpay.

Toronto has no obligation to help the Yankees, a division rival, win the World Series. And neither do the Mets, a cross-town rival, have an obligation to help the Yankees and be fair to them. If the Yankees want to get something to help them, they need to pay up. Just like they forced the Cubs to pay up, and so on. Do you think the Cubs miss Gleyber Torres? Why would the Mets trade Syndergaard to the Yankees for Clint Frazier? The Yankees would have him for a year and a half and probably re-sign him. They need a big time return or it isn't worth the PR. For that, they'll just trade him to SD for an equivalent return and he can play out west.

 

[Machinehead]

If we're moving Garcia, I want it to be for a return that's putting us over the top.

None of the names available, by themselves, make us favorites to win the WS.

 

[One Winged Angel]

If we're moving Garcia, I want it to be for a return that's putting us over the top.

None of the names available, by themselves, make us favorites to win the WS.

Thank you. Been saying that on twitter.

 

[nyr2k2]

They never asked for Houston’s higher end guys for Cole and the negotiations didn’t go very long.



Paxton, damaged goods. Extensive injury history. Gray, up and down #2/#3 guy. Lance Lynn? Come on, now you’re really reaching. McCutchen was old and past prime. The Mariners and Marlins were looking to dump salary with Encarnacion and Stanton respectively and the Yankees had the financial ability to take advantage of that and in Stanton’s case, he basically said he only wanted to be a Yankee or a Dodger and the Dodgers didn’t want to take on another big contract. You can’t tell me that if they weren’t eating the vast majority of salaries that they would have gotten those players for the returns they sent.

The sad part is that I have no problem with the Mets as a team. It’s their fans and fans saying things like Yankee fans are entitled for whatever reason. If Yankee fans are entitled, then Mets fans are miserable and misanthropical little brothers with inferiority complexes who can’t stand the sight of the Yankees success. Two can play this stereotype the entire fan base game.

Yeah you're making my point. The Yankees can get those guys because they're willing to negotiate and agree on their more middling prospects or roster players to acquire the guys. They know how to negotiate and deal, and the other teams aren't holding them over the barrel to try to extract a bunch of A-level prospects for B- or C-level talent.

The problems arise when it comes to the more elite players. The Yankees don't want to pay up. They want to hold onto their top prospects, generally. And that's cool. Why give up your top prospects now when you have a relatively young team of All Stars? But, you can't then get all upset when you refuse to open up the wallet and someone else does.

There's nothing "sad" about you not caring about the Mets and being offended by my generalization. It is what it is. And you don't need to tell me about how awful it is to be a Mets fan--I/we know! Hearing it from Yankees fans in the context of Yankees fans crying about how other teams are unfair to them makes it all the more amusing to us.

Anyway, I've probably said too much, so feel free to take your parting shots before this thread moves on.

 

[JimmyG89]

 

[One Winged Angel]

Yeah you're making my point. The Yankees can get those guys because they're willing to negotiate and agree on their more middling prospects or roster players to acquire the guys. They know how to negotiate and deal, and the other teams aren't holding them over the barrel to try to extract a bunch of A-level prospects for B- or C-level talent.

How would you feel if the Rangers dealt A-level prospects for C-level NHL talent?

The problems arise when it comes to the more elite players. The Yankees don't want to pay up. They want to hold onto their top prospects, generally. And that's cool. Why give up your top prospects now when you have a relatively young team of All Stars? But, you can't then get all upset when you refuse to open up the wallet and someone else does.

2 problems with this.

1. I’m not upset, I’m pointing out a fact.
2. I don’t care that said got said player, I just notice how the asking prices aren’t nearly as high for said team to obtain said player in comparison as to what is being asked of Brian Cashman.

There's nothing "sad" about you not caring about the Mets and being offended by my generalization. It is what it is. And you don't need to tell me about how awful it is to be a Mets fan--I/we know! Hearing it from Yankees fans in the context of Yankees fans crying about how other teams are unfair to them makes it all the more amusing to us.

1. I never said I didn’t care about the Mets. I said I don’t hate the team. I actually root for the Mets to win because I hate 90% of the teams in the NL and in baseball, there isn’t a strong rivalry, so I’d rather see the Mets win. I hate every other team in their division.

2. The difference between you and I is that you just assumed that I was entitled for no reason because I pointed out a trend. I can’t do anything about it other than laugh at it. It’s been going on for a while now. I can call you miserable and say that you have an inferiority complex because you’ve given me the ammunition to do so on this little tirade that you unnecessarily directed at me. You honestly sound like the bitter ex seeing their significant other go onto bigger and better things while you’re sitting there alone. It’s going to take a lot more than that to offend me, but I will call it how I see it and I don’t think there’s any argument against what I’m saying. You basically handed me a loaded gun.

Anyway, I've probably said too much, so feel free to take your parting shots before this thread moves on.

It wasn’t that it was too much, it’s that you unnecessarily and unwittingly said it without having the slightest grasp of what I’m actually thinking. Yes, there are entitled Yankee fans. I’m not one of those fairweather know-nothing’s that think every player should end up a Yankee.

Analyzing something and being “mad” or “whining about it” are anything but mutually exclusive. Are we “whining” on here everytime we talk about a player’s shortcomings? No. It’s discussion. You don’t have to agree and that’s fine. You know that I love a good debate on here, you’ve seen me for years on here. The last thing I expect a Mets fan to do is agree with anything a Yankees fan is saying about baseball.

Anyway, this is how we know it’s summer. The season that we all hate around here. Cheers and hopefully we’ll be rejoicing about how all of the rookies and new additions are thriving for the real team that matters around here come October.

 

[nyr2k2]

It's really amazing that Syracuse isn't playing like .700 ball, given that their team consists almost exclusively of 4A players or guys that were once really good MLB players. Much like the MLB Mets, however, the pitching has been...suspect.

 

[romba]

This thread is just like the main board- any discussion regarding anything negative is immediately termed 'whining' by teams of opposing fan bases lol.

1 person makes a debatably valid statement based on history of occurrences, 3 other fans agree with the conclusion and expound upon it, whole fanbase is then deemed whiners.

 

[RGY]

 

[RGY]

 

[East Coast Bias]

This thread is just like the main board- any discussion regarding anything negative is immediately termed 'whining' by teams of opposing fan bases lol.

1 person makes a debatably valid statement based on history of occurrences, 3 other fans agree with the conclusion and expound upon it, whole fanbase is then deemed whiners.

The proof is about mainboard levels, I would agree



EKLUND: Everyone asks for the Yankees for Torres

Bernmeister: Boo Nieves for Torres, Nieves will be your #1 SP