OT: MLB Discussion Thread, Part II: Yanks pay Ellsbury

[KreiMeARiver*]

I really dislike the whole idea of the Mo retirement tour. I didn't like the Chipper tour either, and I wouldn't like a David Wright tour. I don't think organizations should have to bow down to other franchises great players- the reaction to the BoSox gift really bothered me because people were acting like they did something wrong. Absolutely ridiculous. I'm a relatively new fan of the sport (I guess starting in 09?) so I don't know how common stuff like this is but i'm just not a fan.

That being said, that moment last night was absolutely beautiful.

That being said,

Last night was special and I'm damn glad I went and didn't sell my tix.

I don't mind the farewell tour, but only for the best of the best. As good as Chipper was, I don't think he deserved one. Mariano terrorized lineups for 18 years, and the respect that the teams showed him, to me, was fantastic.

Farewell tours should be reserved for immortals, and Mo is exactly that.

 

[BlueshirtBlitz]

who said those franchises had to do that? the franchises chose to give him gifts, just like he chose to give back to those teams employees and sit and meet with them.

and chipper jones and david wright are not even close to being in the same caliber of a player as mariano is. not even close.

Mo is the best relief pitcher in the history of the game.

Superstar players like Wright and Chipper give more value to their club then guys who pitch one inning, two at most, in a game. I'm 100% certain the Atlanta fans would say Jones is absolutely the caliber Mariano was, if not more important.

 

[trueblue9441]

Mo is the best relief pitcher in the history of the game.

Superstar players like Wright and Chipper give more value to their club then guys who pitch one inning, two at most, in a game. I'm 100% certain the Atlanta fans would say Jones is absolutely the caliber Mariano was, if not more important.

of course they' say chipper was, but the fact is he wasn't the caliber mariano is

 

[nyr2k2]

of course they' say chipper was, but the fact is he wasn't the caliber mariano is

The point is that a HOF 3B is more valuable than a HOF closer, even if that closer is unquestionably the greatest ever to play his position.

 

[Kane One]

The point is that a HOF 3B is more valuable than a HOF closer, even if that closer is unquestionably the greatest ever to play his position.

And that's true. Closers usually only help you win in a game you are already winning, or they help you keep a game tied all the way at the end of the game, and that's just for one inning.

Mariano was obviously the best closer of all time, but that's probably the most overrated role in baseball.

 

[16 To Stanley*]

And that's true. Closers usually only help you win in a game you are already winning, or they help you keep a game tied all the way at the end of the game, and that's just for one inning.

Mariano was obviously the best closer of all time, but that's probably the most overrated role in baseball.

Mariano changed the game of baseball with his dominance.

The role of relievers and closers has completely changed since he began. While it may have happened eventually anyway, he certainly sped up the process.

Eventually we will see teams throwing guys out there three innings at a time and pitching every couple days. It will be something like this.

Sabathia for 3 or 4, Nova for 3 or 4, 8th inning guy, closer.

While i agree, a position player is more valuable then another player who plays every couple days and only for a piece of the game, to dominate your position and change the way the game is viewed/played, that is not something that nearly ever occurs.

Very few have done it in any sport.

 

[Kane One]

Mariano changed the game of baseball with his dominance.

The role of relievers and closers has completely changed since he began. While it may have happened eventually anyway, he certainly sped up the process.

Eventually we will see teams throwing guys out there three innings at a time and pitching every couple days. It will be something like this.

Sabathia for 3 or 4, Nova for 3 or 4, 8th inning guy, closer.

While i agree, a position player is more valuable then another player who plays every couple days and only for a piece of the game, to dominate your position and change the way the game is viewed/played, that is not something that nearly ever occurs.

Very few have done it in any sport.

Mariano changed the game of baseball? How exactly did he do that? What has changed?

 

[Zil]

Mariano changed the game of baseball? How exactly did he do that? What has changed?

Rivera didn't change the game. He just happened to enter the game at a time when the role of the multi-inning fireman was giving way to the one-inning closer and the hyper specialized bullpen. That's why he never threw anywhere near 100 innings in a season after 1996. He just happened to come along as teams started saving their best relievers exclusively for save situations. It might have aided his legendary longevity, but the shift didn't happen because of Rivera.

Now you could make the argument that the cutter is a lot more prevalent because of Rivera, but it's not like he revolutionized the game or anything. He's the greatest closer of all time. Is it really necessary to add anything on top of that?

 

[Hire Sather]

Indians won't lose. Really want to see Texas make it after losing two WS G7's and the Pejorative Slured random luck wildcard playoff game last year.

 

[nyr2k2]

Mariano changed the game of baseball with his dominance.

The role of relievers and closers has completely changed since he began. While it may have happened eventually anyway, he certainly sped up the process.

Eventually we will see teams throwing guys out there three innings at a time and pitching every couple days. It will be something like this.

Sabathia for 3 or 4, Nova for 3 or 4, 8th inning guy, closer.

While i agree, a position player is more valuable then another player who plays every couple days and only for a piece of the game, to dominate your position and change the way the game is viewed/played, that is not something that nearly ever occurs.

Very few have done it in any sport.

Rivera didn't change the sport. You had guy like Randy Myers, Rick Aguilera, Troy Percival, and on and on coming out of the bullpen to dominate the end of games. Rivera debuted just as specialists and the prototypical closers began to become established in baseball. It was happening before he came, and would have happened without him. Hell, the Yankees had John Wetteland blowing people away right before Mo debuted. Rivera did it better than anyone else ever has (and probably ever will), but he didn't change the game.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Rivera didn't change the sport. You had guy like Randy Myers, Rick Aguilera, Troy Percival, and on and on coming out of the bullpen to dominate the end of games. Rivera debuted just as specialists and the prototypical closers began to become established in baseball. It was happening before he came, and would have happened without him. Hell, the Yankees had John Wetteland blowing people away right before Mo debuted. Rivera did it better than anyone else ever has (and probably ever will), but he didn't change the game.

Exactly. And, frankly, specialist players have become overvalued if anything.

 

[darko]

who said those franchises had to do that? the franchises chose to give him gifts, just like he chose to give back to those teams employees and sit and meet with them.

and chipper jones and david wright are not even close to being in the same caliber of a player as mariano is. not even close.

Except Chipper Jones is a lock for HOF and a more valuable and better player than Mo. You are seriously overrating closers.

 

[darko]

Mariano Rivera was the most incredible thing in sports since Ruth IMO...

Come on dude.

Mariano changed the game of baseball with his dominance..

Come on dude.

 

[Zil]

Indians won't lose. Really want to see Texas make it after losing two WS G7's and the Pejorative Slured random luck wildcard playoff game last year.

I'm pretty sure they only lost one World Series game seven. They lost the 2010 one in five games. They were one strike away from winning the 2011 series in both the ninth and tenth innings of game six though.

Personally, I find it hard to feel sorry for them. They collapsed in the 2011 World Series and they've collapsed each of the last two Septembers to blow division leads. Plus, in 2011 game six, Ron Washington didn't put Endy Chavez in as a defensive replacement for Nelson Cruz when he had the chance. So why should I feel bad for them when a ball dropped in during St. Louis' comeback that Chavez probably would've caught? That's all on them.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Except Chipper Jones is a lock for HOF and a more valuable and better player than Mo. You are seriously overrating closers.

It's kind of unreal.

 

[Machinehead]

People always try to diminish the closer role and the bullpen in general but in my experience, out of the 8 (and now 10) teams who make the playoffs, the team standing at the end is the team who's bullpen performed the best.

 

[darko]

People always try to diminish the closer role and the bullpen in general but in my experience, out of the 8 (and now 10) teams who make the playoffs, the team standing at the end is the team who's bullpen performed the best.

Detroit has had one of the worst bullpens this season. Red Sox, Dodgers and Rays are all middle of the road. All playoff bound. Sox own the best record in baseball.

Having a good bullpen is beneficial but it isn't everything.

 

[Machinehead]

Detroit has had one of the worst bullpens this season. Red Sox, Dodgers and Rays are all middle of the road. All playoff bound. Sox own the best record in baseball.

Having a good bullpen is beneficial but it isn't everything.

Just watch. Getting through October is gonna require some great performances out of the pen. And I would say a good closer, or at least a hot one, isn't just beneficial, but required to win it all in most cases.

I guarantee you Detroit will not win the World Series, they don't have the pen. Matter of fact they shouldn't have been there last year but got handed a Yankees team that had gone corpse-cold in the ALCS.

The other teams you mentioned could however. Rodney and Uehara are unhittable if they're on a roll, and the Dodgers have the experience of Brian Wilson.

Now I'm not saying you necessarily need the best closer. I'm not picking Atlanta just because they have Kimbrel. But you need a good one and he needs to be on his game.

 

[darko]

Just watch. Getting through October is gonna require some great performances out of the pen. And I would say a good closer, or at least a hot one, isn't just beneficial, but required to win it all in most cases.

I guarantee you Detroit will not win the World Series, they don't have the pen. Matter of fact they shouldn't have been there last year but got handed a Yankees team that had gone corpse-cold in the ALCS.

The other teams you mentioned could however. Rodney and Uehara are unhittable if they're on a roll, and the Dodgers have the experience of Brian Wilson.

Now I'm not saying you necessarily need the best closer. I'm not picking Atlanta just because they have Kimbrel. But you need a good one and he needs to be on his game.

2011 Cardinals won it all with a below average / mediocre bullpen. Same as 2006 Cards.

 

[Machinehead]

2011 Cardinals won it all with a below average / mediocre bullpen. Same as 2006 Cards.

I'll give you 2011 as Motte was likely the weakest closer in recent memory to get a ring.

In 2006 Wainwright converted every save opportunity and didn't yield a single run in the playoffs.

 

[darko]

I'll give you 2011 as Motte was likely the weakest closer in recent memory to get a ring.

In 2006 Wainwright converted every save opportunity and didn't yield a single run in the playoffs.

And yet their bullpen team ERA was over 4. There's more to it than 1 guy.

 

[Machinehead]

And yet their bullpen team ERA was over 4. There's more to it than 1 guy.

Definitely, and it very well can be made up for with hitting and starting pitching. I'm not saying it's paramount, I just think it's underrated; particularly the advantage of turning a 9 inning game into and 8 inning game. You have 27 outs to beat the Tigers. You have 24 outs to beat the Braves. That's huge.

People say "well he's just a closer, he's not out there every day" but I just find that having a guy that's near automatic becomes very important as the games get bigger.

Now the dynasty Yankees of 1996-2000 might win regardless, they were so clearly the best team. But I firmly believe that the Yankees don't go to the World Series in 2003 or win it in 2009 if not for their closer. In 2003 he had his famous 3 scoreless innings against Boston in game 7, and in 2009 he was only closer out of the 8 in the playoffs to not blow a save. That's bigger than it might seem. One blown save here or there and we're looking at a game 7 against Anaheim or Philly.

 

[Zil]

Definitely, and it very well can be made up for with hitting and starting pitching. I'm not saying it's paramount, I just think it's underrated; particularly the advantage of turning a 9 inning game into and 8 inning game. You have 27 outs to beat the Tigers. You have 24 outs to beat the Braves. That's huge.

People say "well he's just a closer, he's not out there every day" but I just find that having a guy that's near automatic becomes very important as the games get bigger.

Now the dynasty Yankees of 1996-2000 might win regardless, they were so clearly the best team. But I firmly believe that the Yankees don't go to the World Series in 2003 or win it in 2009 if not for their closer. In 2003 he had his famous 3 scoreless innings against Boston in game 7, and in 2009 he was only closer out of the 8 in the playoffs to not blow a save. That's bigger than it might seem. One blown save here or there and we're looking at a game 7 against Anaheim or Philly.

Are we talking about closers or bullpens as a whole here? Every piece of evidence you're using is specifically about closers.

Look, a great closer is very valuable. Nobody's arguing otherwise. But a great closer doesn't make up for a mediocre rotation or a lousy offense. For a closer to be valuable you have to be in the game late. And even then the closer isn't throwing more than a few innings if that. By design they have a limited role. That's why Rivera had what was by far his best season when he wasn't even the ninth inning guy. More innings mean more value and there's a very good case to be made that your relief ace should be saved not for the ninth, but for whenever in the late innings the game is on the line.

Again, Rivera's the greatest ever at his role and a first ballot Hall of Famer. I like him a lot even as somebody who hates his team's guts. But that doesn't change the fact that people are way, way, way overestimating the impact a closer can have on a game.

 

[BlueshirtBlitz]

A good bullpen IS very important. But a good starting 5 (or at least 3 for the playoffs) and good position players are more important.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't love to have a guy like Mo, or Kimbrel, or even a Joe Nathan.

 

[16 To Stanley*]

The value on the bullpen is completely different then it was when Mariano entered the game.

Don't even know how that's debatable and a major reason for it is because of his dominance.