Player Discussion Mitch Marner

[Antropovsky]

Leafs pk is bottom 10 in league. Marner was showered with praise by certain posters for being the reason for the Leafs pk success, when it was good. Now does Marner suck on PK? Not hearing as much this year about his incredible value to the PK.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Re: Matthews versus Marner, centre is harder to play and scoring goals at the pace Matthews does is tough to do.

Marner is a good player....we have a culture problem and I think they really need to get serious about addressing it, whether it's Matthews, Marner, Nylander or Tavares, they probably need to be serious about making changes over the summer.

I've liked Marner's game after a pretty rough start and I am hoping his contract extension asks are reasonable. Pettersson just re-upped for 11.6M and plays a premium position, it's going to be hard to go much higher than that on a RW, maybe 11.75M to put him 250k ahead of Nylander per year.

 

[francis246]

That’s a huge no from me dawg, but it is close

Marner is better than Matthews in every way except scoring goals when both are chugging. I’m taking Marner’s play if we are talking both at their absolute best. The guy will still score and have 4/5 primary assists where he’s directly creating scoring opportunities.

At their best Matthews is for sure giving you 2/3 goals and a ton of shots but that’s really it. Outside of Matthews scoring highlight reel goals I’ve never really watched him and thought he’s the best player on the ice right now or best player in the league. But I’ve thought that watching Pastrnak, Kucherov, Marner, McDavid and McKinnon. There’s something about how dynamic those 5 guys can be when they are at their best. They excel at everything. Scoring, distributing, skating, puck possession.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Marner is better than Matthews in every way except scoring goals when both are chugging. I’m taking Marner’s play if we are talking both at their absolute best. The guy will still score and have 4/5 primary assists where he’s directly creating scoring opportunities.

At their best Matthews is for sure giving you 2/3 goals and a ton of shots but that’s really it. Outside of Matthews scoring highlight reel goals I’ve never really watched him and thought he’s the best player on the ice right now or best player in the league. But I’ve thought that watching Pastrnak, Kucherov, Marner, McDavid and McKinnon. There’s something about how dynamic those 5 guys can be when they are at their best. They excel at everything. Scoring, distributing, skating, puck possession.

Matthews won the Hart and Lindsey awards in the same year, was 2nd another year and it one of the favorites again this year. The year Matthews won, I think Marner got one 3rd place vote or something. The players and the voters seem to think Matthews>>>>>>>>Marner and if you had a draft of all the players today, I'll bet not one GM even considers taking Marner over Matthews. Seriously, I don't see how this is even a debate.

And BTW, check out the recent post of all the playoff goals last year, Marner wasn't really creating much of anything, he was just sort of there for the most part.

 

[francis246]

Matthews won the Hart and Lindsey awards in the same year, was 2nd another year and it one of the favorites again this year. The year Matthews won, I think Marner got one 3rd place vote or something. The players and the voters seem to think Matthews>>>>>>>>Marner and if you had a draft of all the players today, I'll bet not one GM even considers taking Marner over Matthews. Seriously, I don't see how this is even a debate.

And BTW, check out the recent post of all the playoff goals last year, Marner wasn't really creating much of anything, he was just sort of there for the most part.

Of course, goal scoring is the number one valued thing and he plays Center a more premier position. Not saying he wasn’t deserving of those awards. But Nathan MacKinnon has never won those awards, do you think he’s a better player than Matthews?

It’s obviously objective and the answer will vary depending on who you ask. But I think playmaking is so criminally underrated these days.

And tbh I don’t care about playoffs in this conversation. We are talking about their absolute best, so it’s a regular season conversation. Neither guy has been spectacular in the playoffs to a point where the conversation would have any relevancy in terms of playoff production. We are strictly talking about these two players at their peak performance that we’ve all watched. I personally think Marner impacts the game more overall. You’re free to disagree.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Of course, goal scoring is the number one valued thing and he plays Center a more premier position. Not saying he wasn’t deserving of those awards. But Nathan MacKinnon has never won those awards, do you think he’s a better player than Matthews?

It’s obviously objective and the answer will vary depending on who you ask. But I think playmaking is so criminally underrated these days.

And tbh I don’t care about playoffs in this conversation. We are talking about their absolute best, so it’s a regular season conversation. Neither guy has been spectacular in the playoffs to a point where the conversation would have any relevancy in terms of playoff production. We are strictly talking about these two players at their peak performance that we’ve all watched. I personally think Marner impacts the game more overall. You’re free to disagree.

MacKinnon vs Matthews is an interesting question, I would say that the seasons when Matthews was top 2 in Hart voting, he was better for sure. If we're drafting a team today, that's a much harder decision

If you don't care about playoffs then we can stop there as I value the playoffs a TON. Usually it's not an issue as the players that are stars during the season are just as good in the playoffs, but Marner's a bit of a weird case in that regard. And Matthews also hasn't been great in the playoffs, that's true as well so whetever. I don't really care much, I just want the team to win but awards voting (by not just the media guys, but players as well) has Matthews by a landslide and I'm comfortable going with that majority in this case.

If the question was which player is more entertaining, more fun to watch etc. then I probably take Marner. If you want a winning team though, I take Matthews.

 

[Aashir]

To throw my two cents into this marner vs matthews thing. I think you can make a case for both, the big goal scoring center, or the crafty playmaking winger

I really don't think either of them carries more weight on that line than the other. Marner holds the puck and dishes, but often times matthews turns goals out of nothing shots.

If I had to take one when they are on their "high", I'm honestly stuck. Matthews's hart year is a no brainer, marner hasn't ever come close to that level of a player, but neither has matthews himself apart from that year. He was a true dual way threat akin to Draisaitl. If being "on" means that year than I pick Matthews as the more dominant and crucial player, otherwise I find myself leaning towards marner slightly. He can be a lesser dual threat, but my issue is 5, 10, 15 games in and he'll revert back to a pass first player, but I still think he can put together a bit more impactful play.

I think both players "lows" are just as bad. Matthews looks invisible and disinterested in his lows, Marner is actively costing us when he's on his lows. Maybe it's beacuse he holds the puck more often but when he isn't on, he's turning pucks over, making bad passes, and passing up wide shots. Matthews is just looking like he is scared to touch the puck and wants someone else to do everything for him.

And finally in terms of average player, I think this one is a toss up, but I think I'll take a B game from matthews over a B game from marner, at least from this year. In years past even if marner wasn't playing great, he was still contributing to the team's scoring and pk. This year, or at least for the majority of the year, marner has had to have a great game to actively contribute to the team's success and the pk ain't anything spectacular.

Lastly, I don't think Marner has gone off without Matthews this year, but the same cannot be said the other way around. Matthews and Nylander were popping off, but marner and tavares were struggling a bit.

All in all, I think matthews is a bit more important, but I see and agree with points on marner being more important

 

[DarkKnight]

To throw my two cents into this marner vs matthews thing. I think you can make a case for both, the big goal scoring center, or the crafty playmaking winger

I really don't think either of them carries more weight on that line than the other. Marner holds the puck and dishes, but often times matthews turns goals out of nothing shots.

If I had to take one when they are on their "high", I'm honestly stuck. Matthews's hart year is a no brainer, marner hasn't ever come close to that level of a player, but neither has matthews himself apart from that year. He was a true dual way threat akin to Draisaitl. If being "on" means that year than I pick Matthews as the more dominant and crucial player, otherwise I find myself leaning towards marner slightly. He can be a lesser dual threat, but my issue is 5, 10, 15 games in and he'll revert back to a pass first player, but I still think he can put together a bit more impactful play.

I think both players "lows" are just as bad. Matthews looks invisible and disinterested in his lows, Marner is actively costing us when he's on his lows. Maybe it's beacuse he holds the puck more often but when he isn't on, he's turning pucks over, making bad passes, and passing up wide shots. Matthews is just looking like he is scared to touch the puck and wants someone else to do everything for him.

And finally in terms of average player, I think this one is a toss up, but I think I'll take a B game from matthews over a B game from marner, at least from this year. In years past even if marner wasn't playing great, he was still contributing to the team's scoring and pk. This year, or at least for the majority of the year, marner has had to have a great game to actively contribute to the team's success and the pk ain't anything spectacular.

Lastly, I don't think Marner has gone off without Matthews this year, but the same cannot be said the other way around. Matthews and Nylander were popping off, but marner and tavares were struggling a bit.

All in all, I think matthews is a bit more important, but I see and agree with points on marner being more important

Well said. I'd include the PK and running the PP in the Marner column, which I think are under appreciated in terms of team importance.

 

[Antropovsky]

Re: Matthews versus Marner, centre is harder to play and scoring goals at the pace Matthews does is tough to do.

Marner is a good player....we have a culture problem and I think they really need to get serious about addressing it, whether it's Matthews, Marner, Nylander or Tavares, they probably need to be serious about making changes over the summer.

I've liked Marner's game after a pretty rough start and I am hoping his contract extension asks are reasonable. Pettersson just re-upped for 11.6M and plays a premium position, it's going to be hard to go much higher than that on a RW, maybe 11.75M to put him 250k ahead of Nylander per year.

Scoring goals at the pace he does is hard to do.

Thats an understatement.

 

[Antropovsky]

5vs5 stats (2023 + 2024 season)
1200 Mins together
715 Mins apart

FF% together: 55.8
Marner ff% without Matthews: 48.22
Matthews without Marner: 53.37

Xg together: 56.76
Marner xgf without Matthews: 48.38
Matthews xgf without Marner: 55.89

So when Marner isn't on Matthews line, then his line is generally outclassed by his opponents line. However, Matthews stats remain dominant with or without Marner?

Yet Marner is this Teams best player? It's pretty clear whose riding whose coat tails here.

 

[WTFMAN99]

5vs5 stats (2023 + 2024 season)
1200 Mins together
715 Mins apart

FF% together: 55.8
Marner ff% without Matthews: 48.22
Matthews without Marner: 53.37

Xg together: 56.76
Marner xgf without Matthews: 48.38
Matthews xgf without Marner: 55.89

So when Marner isn't on Matthews line, then his line is generally outclassed by his opponents line. However, Matthews stats remain dominant with or without Marner?

Yet Marner is this Teams best player? It's pretty clear whose riding whose coat tails here.

I think all that other time without Matthews, Marner would have been with Tavares and he's been declining hard.

 

[studebaker17]

I think everyone can decide for themselves how meaningful things are, or aren't. For mself (and I think many others), anything that happens during the regular season is overshadowed by our 7 consecutive seasons of sub .500 playoff hockey and I would trade 70 goals for winning even just one more game in the playoffs. There's nothing that compares to the excitement of playoff hockey, especially when the team goes deep. Team accomplishments (or lack of them) is what really matters as it's a team game after all but that's me, if you want to worship individuals then again, that's your right.

If you want to "compartmentalize" our playoff failures that's great, whatever makes you happy. Others think that playoffs are the most relevant and most interesting thing to discuss, and not just for the two weeks that the playoffs exist for us. That seems to make you angry so you yell at people and I guess that's also your right though constantly yelling insults at clouds does nothing but stir up conflict.

Marner's consistently a great player for 86 games a season, then the "engine" seems to run out of steam. Maybe it's the coaches fault for playing him too much, maybe it's "shambles in the brain", who the hell knows. We all hope he figures it out one of these days, we all want the team to win after all and if I'm being honest, yes I'm especially worried about him because I fear we will sign him to a billion dollar contract whether he figures it out or not so if he never does, we're f***ed. It's the big money guys that need to lead the way if this team is to do anything in the playoffs ever, Marner's one of them so let's hope he figures it out, pronto. And same goes for Matthews, who gives a f*** about 70 goals if he can't bring it in the playoffs, not me, that's for damn sure. And if these guys never figure it out, they'll never be the greatest Leafs of all-time in my book as up to this point, the most bright memories have been provided by guys like Sittler, Salming, Gilmour, Sundin, Clark etc. who played like the star players like they are when it mattered most.

Sundin had tons of critism on his career and play. Especially the year he was injured in the playoffs and roberts carried the team on his back.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Sundin had tons of critism on his career and play. Especially the year he was injured in the playoffs and roberts carried the team on his back.

He takes a back seat to Sittler and Gilmour in my book, no question. But as far as playoff performance goes, he's still ahead of the guys we have now who so many are calling the greatest Maple Leafs ever despite consistently poor playoff performance.

 

[studebaker17]

He takes a back seat to Sittler and Gilmour in my book, no question. But as far as playoff performance goes, he's still ahead of the guys we have now who so many are calling the greatest Maple Leafs ever despite consistently poor playoff performance.

I agree they were all great , but they were just great players to begin with. To me it's that 2nd tier guys that seem to step up huge that we are missing that tilts the ice for the stars to shine. We dont have a roberts , tucker, ect who just dominated their roles so well .

 

[Gary Nylund]

I agree they were all great , but they were just great players to begin with. To me it's that 2nd tier guys that seem to step up huge that we are missing that tilts the ice for the stars to shine. We dont have a roberts , tucker, ect who just dominated their roles so well .

That we're so top heavy is definitely a problem. But M&M&JT not producing in the playoffs the way they do during the regular season is also an issue.

 

[Craig Button]

Babcock ran the stretch pass and chip and chase most of the time, Marner wasn’t really puck dominant until we were set up in the ozone. Keefe’s breakouts have Marner getting a lot more neutral zone touches.

yeah that's not true at all

 

[ACC1224]

Elite

 

[BTP]

Matthews gets all the credit, but Sammy with the save and MARNER with the elite set up deserve love too

 

[GoonieFace]

It’s 3 on 3 overtime, they were invisible the whole game

 

[DarkKnight]

Elite

Not their best night, but my word what a pass through two players.

 

[ACC1224]

Not their best night, but my word what a pass through two players.

Yeah not very good for sure.

 

[666]

5vs5 stats (2023 + 2024 season)
1200 Mins together
715 Mins apart

FF% together: 55.8
Marner ff% without Matthews: 48.22
Matthews without Marner: 53.37

Xg together: 56.76
Marner xgf without Matthews: 48.38
Matthews xgf without Marner: 55.89

So when Marner isn't on Matthews line, then his line is generally outclassed by his opponents line. However, Matthews stats remain dominant with or without Marner?

Yet Marner is this Teams best player? It's pretty clear whose riding whose coat tails here.

You've already been told that this type of misuse of stats is wrong without providing context. The last time Dekes even went to the trouble to show you how ridiculous it was. If you don't know how to use advanced stats stop using them.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I think all that other time without Matthews, Marner would have been with Tavares and he's been declining hard.

He's over 50% with Tavares in that timeframe too. The main thing dragging it down is Marner getting thrown out in insanely heavy defensive minutes with random players to save us from sticky defensive situations. Meanwhile, when Matthews is without Marner, he generally plays with Nylander and gets the same or even easier deployment.

Of course, the user you responded to has been explained this countless times now, and he just ignores it to post the same thing again a week later.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Give credit to where credit is due .. Mitch made some moves with his league leading edge work behind net for OT winner that was magnificent and only2/3 players in league can make .. folks between Sammy's 10-beller and Mitch's play that decided game .. no Matty attempt with that magic .. give credit to where it is due .. yes shot was very good but Mitch's edge work/pass to allude 2 Sabres was even better

 

[Antropovsky]

You've already been told that this type of misuse of stats is wrong without providing context. The last time Dekes even went to the trouble to show you how ridiculous it was. If you don't know how to use advanced stats stop using them.

Lol Fenwick doesn't matter? I just selected two stats. All Marners stats are generally worse compared to Matthews when they are apart.

why do sites bother tracking corsi and fenwick then?

I was told the sample size of the stats I previously posted was too small, well this ewmple size is over 700 mins. Whereas mins together was 1200.


The fact that Marners number drop quite substantially across the board once removed from Matthews but Matthews remains similar or stronger is an indication that Marner is much more dependant on Matthews.