Player Discussion Mitch Marner

[Aashir]

I just saw the second half of the Boston game. It looked like a pain in the ass game to play, and Matthews and Marner were just not that interested in it. Maybe they got pushed out of it, or they just never found their way in.

Probably a bit of both

how can a team announce they "aren't done" down 5-0 to columbus and come out strong and fast and with purpose and also have the ability to pull this peewee shit.

I'm getting really tired of the heavy style coming and and M&M just pack their shit up and go home

 

[Stephen]

Probably a bit of both

how can a team announce they "aren't done" down 5-0 to columbus and come out strong and fast and with purpose and also have the ability to pull this peewee shit.

I'm getting really tired of the heavy style coming and and M&M just pack their shit up and go home

The worst part is everyone who plays Matthews and Marner think they're a little tougher than they are, a little more underdog. Like they invite that 'take them down' energy. Yuck.

 

[saffronleaf]

he won a board battle tonight that was great, keep it up mitch

 

[MilkofthePoppy]

It’s really just a poor understanding of the game which is fine. You don’t need to pass an aptitude test to be a fan.

I understand their frustrations don't get me wrong. I feel sometimes Marner is too cute. If he simplified his game his would be deadly... and the magic would still come out anyway.

 

[Gary Nylund]

And the same posters constantly calling Marner, Gretzky and the best player on the franchise isn't? Also refusing to argue against data and sports media's regular negative opinion of data...but instead rather attack posters with lolz and posts like yours?

If Matthews has sucked so bad in the playoffs...why do media target Marner and not Matthews? Conspiracy? Why is Marner so upset with social media? Too many people complimenting him?

No one want to take this one?

Jeez it's a challenging life being as good as Gretzky.

A part of it is that Marner is just so bad at addressing the media. He says things like "we don't care what anyone thinks" and so on, I mean if you tell the fans/media/world that you don't care about them, how do you expect people to react? I've been following Toronto sports for 50+ years and I don't remember a player on any team ever saying anything that dumb.

M&M have both been playoff disappointments, but overall I'd say Matthews hasn't been quite as disappointing as Marner. So that combined with Marner's whiny public persona is why Marner maybe gets more grief than he deserves. But he does deserve plenty of grief though, even his biggest fans can't deny that, the best they can to is deflect with straw man arguments like "it's so stupid to blame only Marner" when nobody is doing that?

Gary, you were here after that Montreal series, the one where EVERY. SINGLE. TOPIC. Was blaming Marner for "blowing it" and how he needed to be traded immediately for the team to go anywhere...

I have never seen anyone say Marner deserves all the blame. I was here sure, I said we should look into what we could get for Marner in a trade and I remember many people attacking me for it, the simpletons labelling me a hater and so on. I explained that I'm not saying "trade him", just trade him IF AND ONLY IF the return is right, IF AND ONLY IF we think we'd be a better team for it but some people are just so attached to the kid that they lose the ability to think rationally.

I would trade any player at any time if I thought it made the team better, period. My thinking at the time was that I want to win in the playoffs, the return for Marner under contract for many more years coming off a 1st team all-star season would be MASSIVE so why not consider it? He should be worth a TON to a team that's not a contender but wants to sell tickets so why not at least explore the possibility and think of how we might look with less offence without Marner, but instead a massively improved defence? Now here we are after a few more kicks at the can are we're still the same good regular season team (OK maybe not as good as we were before) who can't shoot straight in the playoffs.

Then you have a Boston game and all the memories come flooding back. It just goes around and around in a circle. There's good reasons to keep going with Marner and there's good reasons against. He's not a perfect player and there are flaws you have to be wide eyed about and live with.

Exactly. I say overall he's a great player for the first 86 games of the season, then something happens to him and he's no so great to put it mildly. I don't really see how people can argue with that, it's been that way for so long. Maybe things will be different this spring, hard to believe after all these years but I guess you never know.

 

[Suntouchable13]

A part of it is that Marner is just so bad at addressing the media. He says things like "we don't care what anyone thinks" and so on, I mean if you tell the fans/media/world that you don't care about them, how do you expect people to react? I've been following Toronto sports for 50+ years and I don't remember a player on any team ever saying anything that dumb.

M&M have both been playoff disappointments, but overall I'd say Matthews hasn't been quite as disappointing as Marner. So that combined with Marner's whiny public persona is why Marner maybe gets more grief than he deserves. But he does deserve plenty of grief though, even his biggest fans can't deny that, the best they can to is deflect with straw man arguments like "it's so stupid to blame only Marner" when nobody is doing that?


I have never seen anyone say Marner deserves all the blame. I was here sure, I said we should look into what we could get for Marner in a trade and I remember many people attacking me for it, the simpletons labelling me a hater and so on. I explained that I'm not saying "trade him", just trade him IF AND ONLY IF the return is right, IF AND ONLY IF we think we'd be a better team for it but some people are just so attached to the kid that they lose the ability to think rationally.

I would trade any player at any time if I thought it made the team better, period. My thinking at the time was that I want to win in the playoffs, the return for Marner under contract for many more years coming off a 1st team all-star season would be MASSIVE so why not consider it? He should be worth a TON to a team that's not a contender but wants to sell tickets so why not at least explore the possibility and think of how we might look with less offence without Marner, but instead a massively improved defence? Now here we are after a few more kicks at the can are we're still the same good regular season team (OK maybe not as good as we were before) who can't shoot straight in the playoffs.


Exactly. I say overall he's a great player for the first 86 games of the season, then something happens to him and he's no so great to put it mildly. I don't really see how people can argue with that, it's been that way for so long. Maybe things will be different this spring, hard to believe after all these years but I guess you never know.

I just don’t think he is worth re-signing for 12+ mil, you know he will get more than Willy. I don’t see how Leafs need to move forward with Marner making that much. I really don’t. Unless Leafs win the cup in 2024, then pay him whatever you want. I don’t care. For 12 mil, you have to step it up in the playoffs and lead your team somewhere.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I just don’t think he is worth re-signing for 12+ mil, you know he will get more than Willy. I don’t see how Leafs need to move forward with Marner making that much. I really don’t. Unless Leafs win the cup in 2024, then pay him whatever you want. I don’t care. For 12 mil, you have to step it up in the playoffs and lead your team somewhere.

I mean if he kills it this spring he could change my mind for as it stands right now, I agree completely. But I predict they will sign him, his biggest fans here will jump for joy and the next 7 years will be similar to the last 7. We had our chance to shop him after losing to MTL, too late now. So many people were yelling at me for mentioning the idea of shopping him - "you don't trade guys like Marner, you never win a trade like that". I wonder how many of those people now get what I was saying - I don't want to "win a trade", I want to build a team that can go deep in the playoffs.

Maybe this team will go deep with Marner one of these days, anything's possible. Hard to see it happening though, oh so hard.

 

[ACC1224]

I just don’t think he is worth re-signing for 12+ mil, you know he will get more than Willy. I don’t see how Leafs need to move forward with Marner making that much. I really don’t. Unless Leafs win the cup in 2024, then pay him whatever you want. I don’t care. For 12 mil, you have to step it up in the playoffs and lead your team somewhere.

What about the 14 million dollar guy?

 

[Gary Nylund]

What about the 14 million dollar guy?

Who would that be?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Already did this for Matthews, but it's kind of even more needed for Marner, as playoff discussions about him go even more off the rails.

There's a theory that these praised high-end playoff producers (like Mackinnon) are producing to that level because of individual dominance instead of team situation. If these high-end playoff producers were truly doing this as a result of individual dominance, we would expect their individual production results to see a bigger improvement/smaller drop-off than the rest of their team.

Let's take a look at Marner and Mackinnon. I took the players that played in both regular season and playoffs in the years that Toronto and Colorado made the playoffs since 2016-2017, and looked at how their production changed.

From the regular season to playoffs, 2017-2023, Marner's points per game dropped 13.8%. The combined drop off from the rest of the players was 21.3%.
From the regular season to playoffs, 2018-2023, Mackinnon's points per game dropped 4.4%. The combined drop off from the rest of the players was 1.0%.

Looks a heck of a lot like the production discrepancy is the difference in the goaltending that the teams faced, not a result of Marner or Mackinnon actions specifically. In fact, Marner's production dropped less relative to the rest of the team, while Mackinnon's dropped more.

 

[Stephen]

I just don’t think he is worth re-signing for 12+ mil, you know he will get more than Willy. I don’t see how Leafs need to move forward with Marner making that much. I really don’t. Unless Leafs win the cup in 2024, then pay him whatever you want. I don’t care. For 12 mil, you have to step it up in the playoffs and lead your team somewhere.

The way I see the Leafs business case for keeping Matthews, Marner and Nylander all together is pretty simple. Even if they are flawed superstars and losing is frustrating they are positioned to be a pretty good playoff automatic and on the “cusp” of something special.

Moving one of these guys has unique upside as a dramatic retool the way Florida did it with Matthew Tkachuk. But you could also be on the Calgary end and end up with a Jonathan Huberdeau which could set your program into a death spiral.

So avoiding big changes at the core level is really about risk aversion while keeping the strengths of what you already have. Not satisfying but I think that’s their calculation.

 

[IPS]

I just don’t think he is worth re-signing for 12+ mil, you know he will get more than Willy. I don’t see how Leafs need to move forward with Marner making that much. I really don’t. Unless Leafs win the cup in 2024, then pay him whatever you want. I don’t care. For 12 mil, you have to step it up in the playoffs and lead your team somewhere.

The alternative of losing him for nothing is a lot more damning than paying him 12+.

 

[stickty111]

A part of it is that Marner is just so bad at addressing the media. He says things like "we don't care what anyone thinks" and so on, I mean if you tell the fans/media/world that you don't care about them, how do you expect people to react? I've been following Toronto sports for 50+ years and I don't remember a player on any team ever saying anything that dumb.

M&M have both been playoff disappointments, but overall I'd say Matthews hasn't been quite as disappointing as Marner. So that combined with Marner's whiny public persona is why Marner maybe gets more grief than he deserves. But he does deserve plenty of grief though, even his biggest fans can't deny that, the best they can to is deflect with straw man arguments like "it's so stupid to blame only Marner" when nobody is doing that?


I have never seen anyone say Marner deserves all the blame. I was here sure, I said we should look into what we could get for Marner in a trade and I remember many people attacking me for it, the simpletons labelling me a hater and so on. I explained that I'm not saying "trade him", just trade him IF AND ONLY IF the return is right, IF AND ONLY IF we think we'd be a better team for it but some people are just so attached to the kid that they lose the ability to think rationally.

I would trade any player at any time if I thought it made the team better, period. My thinking at the time was that I want to win in the playoffs, the return for Marner under contract for many more years coming off a 1st team all-star season would be MASSIVE so why not consider it? He should be worth a TON to a team that's not a contender but wants to sell tickets so why not at least explore the possibility and think of how we might look with less offence without Marner, but instead a massively improved defence? Now here we are after a few more kicks at the can are we're still the same good regular season team (OK maybe not as good as we were before) who can't shoot straight in the playoffs.


Exactly. I say overall he's a great player for the first 86 games of the season, then something happens to him and he's no so great to put it mildly. I don't really see how people can argue with that, it's been that way for so long. Maybe things will be different this spring, hard to believe after all these years but I guess you never know.

I mean if he kills it this spring he could change my mind for as it stands right now, I agree completely. But I predict they will sign him, his biggest fans here will jump for joy and the next 7 years will be similar to the last 7. We had our chance to shop him after losing to MTL, too late now. So many people were yelling at me for mentioning the idea of shopping him - "you don't trade guys like Marner, you never win a trade like that". I wonder how many of those people now get what I was saying - I don't want to "win a trade", I want to build a team that can go deep in the playoffs.

Maybe this team will go deep with Marner one of these days, anything's possible. Hard to see it happening though, oh so hard.

This Boston game just showed nothing has changed for Marner. A physical and fast team, he crumbles.

 

[ACC1224]

Marners numbers historically vs the Bruins

Mitch Marner Vs Boston | StatMuse

Mitch Marner has 10 goals, 29 assists and a plus-minus of +7 in 26 games against the Bruins in his career.

www.statmuse.com

 

[Gary Nylund]

The alternative of losing him for nothing is a lot more damning than paying him 12+.

Cap space isn't nothing. What if we use that space to rebuild the defence and have a better balanced team overall? We're 1-7 in playoff series with this core despite emptying the cupboards to support them in the playoffs, maybe you think it's a no brainer to keep going down this path, me I'm not so sure.

You can also pressure him to waive his NMC and boom, nothing turns into something just like that.

 

[stickty111]

Marner playoffs vs Bruins.
Games 1-4: 9 points in 8 games.
Games 5-7: 4 points in 6 games

 

[DarkKnight]

Marners numbers historically vs the Bruins

Mitch Marner Vs Boston | StatMuse

Mitch Marner has 10 goals, 29 assists and a plus-minus of +7 in 26 games against the Bruins in his career.

www.statmuse.com

I said this in another thread but he’s put up points against the better teams. Maybe if big sexy wasn’t whiffing on shots last night the ankle biters might be back in their caves. He wasn’t awful last night and he wasn’t the worst player on his line, which is perhaps instructive. That said, solid defensively, not terribly dynamic in their zone. I thought Bill was shit, am I allowed to notice that?

 

[sunstersun]

No one watching this should think Marner was good in the playoffs last year. Good point numbers sure, but actual play and driving offense was terrible.

Most of his point highlights you'd think he was a defenceman.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I said this in another thread but he’s put up points against the better teams. Maybe if big sexy wasn’t whiffing on shots last night the ankle biters might be back in their caves. He wasn’t awful last night and he wasn’t the worst player on his line, which is perhaps instructive. That said, solid defensively, not terribly dynamic in their zone. I thought Bill was shit, am I allowed to notice that?

If it makes you feel better, you just keep yelling at those clouds.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

I said this in another thread but he’s put up points against the better teams. Maybe if big sexy wasn’t whiffing on shots last night the ankle biters might be back in their caves. He wasn’t awful last night and he wasn’t the worst player on his line, which is perhaps instructive. That said, solid defensively, not terribly dynamic in their zone. I thought Bill was shit, am I allowed to notice that?

Honestly this was a very big game and like we've seen in big playoff games before, M&M couldn't get it done. Both and Nylander will continue to be shit on until they can prove they are big game performers. In an important divisional rival game Pasta put up 3 points M&M put up 0, people are going to have something to say.

Good preview for what will probably be the 1st round matchup. Leafs need to learn from this game.

 

[supermann_98]

Marner playoffs vs Bruins.
Games 1-4: 9 points in 8 games.
Games 5-7: 4 points in 6 games

Would love to see the same stats for all of his playoff series stats. He starts off hot and in games 6 & 7 he's invisible out there, save for flopping around on the ice like a beached salmon

 

[DarkKnight]

Honestly this was a very big game and like we've seen in big playoff games before, M&M couldn't get it done. Both and Nylander will continue to be shit on until they can prove they are big game performers. In an important divisional rival game Pasta put up 3 points M&M put up 0, people are going to have something to say.

Good preview for what will probably be the 1st round matchup. Leafs need to learn from this game.

Sure, we lost. I didn't think he was horrible though, I actually think 34 was more to blame for that line. Fair criticism as you've stated, absolutely warranted.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Would love to see the same stats for all of his playoff series stats. He starts off hot and in games 6 & 7 he's invisible out there, save for flopping around on the ice like a beached salmon

These were compiled by other posters, here you go. First Marner, I assume this covers his entire career but I'm not sure.
Games 1-4 - 1.19 PPG
Games 5-7 - 0.47 PPG


And this compares overall playoff production vs regular season:
I rounded my numbers, but the big 4 over the last 5 years in the playoffs:
Matthews: 18% less points per game in the playoffs vs regular season
Marner: 24% less points per game in the playoffs
Nylander: 2% less points per game in the playoffs
Tavares: 27% less points per game in the playoffs.

 

[ToneDog]

Honestly this was a very big game and like we've seen in big playoff games before, M&M couldn't get it done. Both and Nylander will continue to be shit on until they can prove they are big game performers. In an important divisional rival game Pasta put up 3 points M&M put up 0, people are going to have something to say.

Good preview for what will probably be the 1st round matchup. Leafs need to learn from this game.

Will be interesting to see if they have any desire to go into Boston and show everybody they are as good or better than Pasta.

 

[Racer88]

I said this in another thread but he’s put up points against the better teams. Maybe if big sexy wasn’t whiffing on shots last night the ankle biters might be back in their caves. He wasn’t awful last night and he wasn’t the worst player on his line, which is perhaps instructive. That said, solid defensively, not terribly dynamic in their zone. I thought Bill was shit, am I allowed to notice that?

I find your insults hilarious coming from a guy that gets so mad at posters who insult his favourite player……..I’m sure you see this…….right