Player Discussion Mitch Marner

[arso40]

@BTP didn't get a chance to answer your post to me (attached above) before the GDT was closed. Thought it made sense to do it here.

- To your comment that most Matthews goals have been passes from Marner. Matthews scored 40 goals in his rookie season. At the age of 22, Matthews produced at a 45 goals, 88 point pace in 2019, playing with Marleau, Johnsson and Kapanen. Yes, very bad linemates. While also dealing with injury. This year, he played 10 games with Nylander, instead of Marner. In those 10 games he scored 12 goals. Obviously, Matthews has no problems scoring without Marner. If he produced a 45 goal pace at age 22 with 3rd liners, what would he do with any quality 2nd line players?

Just to give you an idea how much help Matthews needs.

On to Tavares. Tavares was 27 in the middle of his prime in 2019, and coming off being a two time finalist for the Hart trophy in previous years on the Island. There were multiple podcasts and articles that broke down advanced stats and game tape, indicating that Marner was significantly more likely to be the beneficiary to Tavares being on his line. Not the other way around. In fact I've posted the article where an author breaks down advanced stats showing how Tavares boosted Marner (because Marner seen a significant improvement to having Tavares, while Tavares so a marginal improvement on his own). Tavares had a well documented history of boosting the advanced stats of his linemates. Additionally, it was broken down that, some players actually seen their advanced stats go down when paired with Marner. I believe it was JVR. While many here try to spin that everyone who played with him saw a boost in their production. Also, Tavares was in his first year in his hometown and likely playing on adrenalin.Tavares and Marners magic disappeared the following season..which leans more to Tavares being play driver.

This year... Marner has been awful unless put on Matthews line. Another indication that Marner needs Matthews. Nylander is producing at incredible pace, primarily not playing with Matthews. Why can he do it with the scrubs that Marner can't?

 

A lot to digest agree with a lot but marner was driving play I disagree with you there …..this year he’s looked like he can’t do it at the same rate cause Tavares has lost a step I agree nylander can still do it cause he’s a solo weapon that can still make plays marner is not a solo weapon he needs to play a team game marner Needs Matthews more than Matthews needs marner I don’t think anyone debates that either marners still a hell of a hoccey player might be our second best forward but I’d say for sure he’s the third most important

 

[meefer]

My two cents...MM is a heck of a hockey player. But, he's so far not been driven by the type of mentality needed to succeed in playoff hockey, where the willingness to battle for every inch of ice is so important. Which puts him in the same category as Matthews and Nylander.

 

[DarkKnight]

I love how Marner sets up Matthews a half dozen times and picks up a couple great assists and the reaction on the board here is he sucks.

Oh, and he still has more points in the playoffs than your supposed playoff studs and he’s better defensively too.

Having a bit of an up and down year and he’s still 15th in the league in points.. hope he can get hot down the stretch.

We’re so spoiled how he can put it on the tape for Matthews, literally he and Gilmour are the best playmakers this storied franchise has ever seen. I’m just glad I don’t have an agenda which prevents me from enjoying nights like last week. As the coach said too, it’s the work he does defensively that allows all the offensive opportunities, and that’s up against their east defensive players. Okay back to “playoffs matter” while whining about regular season. So many “winning” in this thread, it’s like the group you avoid at parties.

My two cents...MM is a heck of a hockey player. But, he's so far not been driven by the type of mentality needed to succeed in playoff hockey, where the willingness to battle for every inch of ice is so important. Which puts him in the same category as Matthews and Nylander.

That is fair comment.

 

[thewave]

We’re so spoiled how he can put it on the tape for Matthews, literally he and Gilmour are the best playmakers this storied franchise has ever seen. I’m just glad I don’t have an agenda which prevents me from enjoying nights like last week. As the coach said too, it’s the work he does defensively that allows all the offensive opportunities, and that’s up against their east defensive players. Okay back to “playoffs matter” while whining about regular season. So many “winning” in this thread, it’s like the group you avoid at parties.


That is fair comment.

I don't like putting the two together in the same sentence. One was a PO monster and the other an elimination game kitten. It's the Kitten vs. The Killer.

We all know he makes amazing plays. Nobody argues that he is a top 20 level talent. The problem is only when he best shows his ability vs when we need him to show his best ability. Remember when someone posted the 3 production regular season vs PO and MM an AM fall to the level of WN who I think gets a little better in the POs

 

[meefer]

I don't like putting the two together in the same sentence. One was a PO monster and the other an elimination game kitten. It's the Kitten vs. The Killer.

We all know he makes amazing plays. Nobody argues that he is a top 20 level talent. The problem is only when he best shows his ability vs when we need him to show his best ability. Remember when someone posted the 3 production regular season vs PO and MM an AM fall to the level of WN who I think gets a little better in the POs

I'd like to see all three of them produce efforts in the playoffs the way Rielly elevates his game.

 

[stickty111]

I'd like to see all three of them produce efforts in the playoffs the way Rielly elevates his game.

Matthews and Nylander have at times. Marner hasn't yet.

 

[stickty111]

He also flipped the puck over the glass at a key moment. I might have forgotten all about that by now if it weren't for the fact that you've posted that ITT what, a few dozen times by now? It was just that one time five years ago though, correct?

 

[meefer]

Matthews and Nylander have at times. Marner hasn't yet.

My earlier went to the fact that none of them have elevated their games to the point where they were the best. All three are tremendous talents, and I've long said that I believe Nylander may be the most complete talent of the three. However, "at times" is not good enough.

 

[stickty111]

My earlier went to the fact that none of them have elevated their games to the point where they were the best. All three are tremendous talents, and I've long said that I believe Nylander may be the most complete talent of the three. However, "at times" is not good enough.

Fair point

 

[Shooter2x]

Mitch Marner will be fine.

 

[Shooter2x]

There is nothing in this world to support your theory.

I am more confident in Knies carrying us to SC victory. But let's hope you're right. Playoff Mitch , rofl.

I like how Marner being bad is a good thing !!! That's a new one

Relative to Marner, Knies is beer league. What are you even saying right now.

It's actually not farfetched to think players are starting to not care about beasting out 82 games any more. The game has changed. Watered down crap then you jump straight into warrior life.

 

[Arzak]

Relative to Marner, Knies is beer league. What are you even saying right now.

It's actually not farfetched to think players are starting to not care about beasting out 82 games any more. The game has changed. Watered down crap then you jump straight into warrior life.

ROFL

Yes, it's far-fetched. It's a dictionary definition.


Mitch Marner -the most useless player comes playoff is going beast mode this playoff.

The only evidence supporting your claim? He sucks now, he must be saving himself for playoffs.

 

[IPS]

Advanced statistics are still quite valuable, when not butchered and used incorrectly.

If that's true you definitely are the best example of how to use them incorrectly. You and the Zeke crowd shoved it down people's throats for many years that Justin Holl was one of the best shutdown D in the league and now that he's with Detroit he gets the 7th most TOI of all their D.

With Mitch - sure they may have a bit of value in telling how well he drives play. Using them to say he's comparable with a clearly superior player in Kucherov just tells me you have know idea what you're watching.

 

[Dekes For Days]

If that's true you definitely are the best example of how to use them incorrectly. You and the Zeke crowd shoved it down people's throats for many years that Justin Holl was one of the best shutdown D in the league and now that he's with Detroit he gets the 7th most TOI of all their D. With Mitch - sure they may have a bit of value in telling how well he drives play. Using them to say he's comparable with a clearly superior player in Kucherov just tells me you have know idea what you're watching.

No, I use them correctly, but it seems that you haven't listened correctly. I did not "shove it down people's throats for years that Holl was one of the best shutdown D in the league". I've simply noted the fact that he and Muzzin combined to form a good shutdown pairing for us for a couple years; but Holl obviously wasn't even the best player in that pairing, let alone the league. And the advanced stats would support that he has struggled so far with Detroit. Not sure what you're even talking about in regards to Kucherov. Marner tends to get undervalued relative to a lot of players (as you demonstrated), but I've often been complimentary of Kucherov outside of his dirty antics. He's been better than Marner this year.

 

[Doublerum1975]

ROFL

Yes, it's far-fetched. It's a dictionary definition.


Mitch Marner -the most useless player comes playoff is going beast mode this playoff.

The only evidence supporting your claim? He sucks now, he must be saving himself for playoffs.

The most useless player holy crap what a bad take you need to stop posting

 

[Arzak]

The most useless player holy crap what a bad take you need to stop posting

Thanks for sharing your feelings while adding nothing to the discussion. Yes, my post was bit of hyperbole .

Sure there are worse players in playoffs, but they are not as scared as Mitch and they are not playing 30 minutes a game glued to Matthews.

Plus, in context, I was responding to a ridiculous claim that predicts Mitch going beast based on his current subpar play, because Mitch is saving himself. ROFL

 

[notDatsyuk]

It's actually not farfetched to think players are starting to not care about beasting out 82 games any more. The game has changed. Watered down crap then you jump straight into warrior life.

I think that's fairly well understood, and applies to most players and teams.

The problem seems to be that the other teams can "jump straight into warrior life", but the Leafs can't.

 

[Antropovsky]

We’re so spoiled how he can put it on the tape for Matthews, literally he and Gilmour are the best playmakers this storied franchise has ever seen. I’m just glad I don’t have an agenda which prevents me from enjoying nights like last week. As the coach said too, it’s the work he does defensively that allows all the offensive opportunities, and that’s up against their east defensive players. Okay back to “playoffs matter” while whining about regular season. So many “winning” in this thread, it’s like the group you avoid at parties.


That is fair comment.

Knies with a great primary assist today. Yet another great primary assist today from a someone other than Marner. Last game it was Liljegren and Marner getting primary assists on Matthews goals.

Found this 2023 article by the Hockey Writers breaking down all Matthews goals in his career. The article indicates a few important things:

1) Matthews finds success with anyone he plays with
2) coming into his season, Nylander only had 2 primary assists on Matthews goals than Mitch Marner.

Nylander with only 2 primary assists less than Marner was what I found most interesting. That's pretty shocking considering Marner seems to play significantly more minutes with Matthews.

Maple Leafs: Breaking Down Auston Matthews' 299 Career Goals - The Hockey Writers Latest News, Analysis & More

One goal away from 300 in his career, we break down and analyze Auston Matthews' first 299 career regular season goals with the Maple Leafs.

thehockeywriters.com

The Highs and Lows of Matthews’ Goals

When it comes to linemates, there may be preferences from the fanbase on who they see play with their number one centre, but he’s had relative success with any player that suits up alongside him — which we saw last year when he played a few games alongside Calle Jarnkrok.


His 299 goals have included a total of 504 assists from 44 different players since 2016-17. Of those, 36 players have record at least one primary assist with six players having 16 or more primary assists.

Of course, Mitch Marner leads the way with 99 assists on Matthews’ goals, while William Nylander isn’t far behind with 72. The two are also separated by just two primary assists with Marner leading the way again with 54. Can you name the other 42 players to have recorded assists over the span of Matthews’ career?

 

[Doublerum1975]

Knies with a great primary assist today. Yet another great primary assist today from a someone other than Marner. Last game it was Liljegren and Marner getting primary assists on Matthews goals.

Found this 2023 article by the Hockey Writers breaking down all Matthews goals in his career. The article indicates a few important things:

1) Matthews finds success with anyone he plays with
2) coming into his season, Nylander only had 2 primary assists on Matthews goals than Mitch Marner.

Nylander with only 2 primary assists less than Marner was what I found most interesting. That's pretty shocking considering Marner seems to play significantly more minutes with Matthews.

Maple Leafs: Breaking Down Auston Matthews' 299 Career Goals - The Hockey Writers Latest News, Analysis & More

One goal away from 300 in his career, we break down and analyze Auston Matthews' first 299 career regular season goals with the Maple Leafs.

thehockeywriters.com

​

We are winning a game and you are posting stupid crap enjoy a good win

 

[Raging Bull]

I'm here for stud defenseman Mitchell Marner.

 

[ACC1224]

We are winning a game and you are posting stupid crap enjoy a good win

Best to ignore

I'm here for stud defenseman Mitchell Marner.

It was funny that the broadcast didn’t figure out he was playing defense until his 6 shift or so.

 

[Antropovsky]

We are winning a game and you are posting stupid crap enjoy a good win

Is this the game day thread,? Ive done a significant amount of legwork to bring these articles with authors who've spent a significant amount of time to research this topic.

I'm doing this in response to posters who just keep saying OMG Marner assisted to Matthews OMG,!

Yet these posters don't want to discuss these articles with the advanced stats that say otherwise?

Why because they can't argue it! The advanced stats tell a different story.

Just keeping everyone honest here. And keeping the truth out there. I'm convinced that Marner has some hired muscle on this board.

 

[ACC1224]

Playing really well lately, he could have 6 points a night with some better finish.
Just dominant all over the ice. Pretty hard to find any complaints with his game.

 

[ZEBROA]

Knies with a great primary assist today. Yet another great primary assist today from a someone other than Marner. Last game it was Liljegren and Marner getting primary assists on Matthews goals.

Found this 2023 article by the Hockey Writers breaking down all Matthews goals in his career. The article indicates a few important things:

1) Matthews finds success with anyone he plays with
2) coming into his season, Nylander only had 2 primary assists on Matthews goals than Mitch Marner.

Nylander with only 2 primary assists less than Marner was what I found most interesting. That's pretty shocking considering Marner seems to play significantly more minutes with Matthews.

Maple Leafs: Breaking Down Auston Matthews' 299 Career Goals - The Hockey Writers Latest News, Analysis & More

One goal away from 300 in his career, we break down and analyze Auston Matthews' first 299 career regular season goals with the Maple Leafs.

thehockeywriters.com

​

I knew Matthews play good without topplayers, but not that good. I would never have thought it was only 2 primary assist less with Nylander.

 

[Leaf Rocket]

Playing really well lately, he could have 6 points a night with some better finish.
Just dominant all over the ice. Pretty hard to find any complaints with his game.

not good enough...should've been at least 10 points and a hatty